This crap again! When are the appearance tab freaks going to give up making all these garbage threads about the same topic over and over?

When we can look the way we want to. That is what the thread is about, y'know.

Unlike some, I'm not wedded to an A-Tab, but here, let me quote what I said earlier. That way I don't have to type it all over again, and won't be offended when you don't read it again.

I just want to clarify my own position here. I'm OK with the current system IF and only if every piece of gear has a fully modable (aka Orange) version and said modable version is craftable.

 

IOW as long as the current system is as flexible as a full blown Appearance Tab I'm good with it. If it's not, well the devs need to address that. Between the lame-*** character creation (5 hairstyles that don't look like emo, punk, or gang nonsense out of 30? Really? No real blonde color? Really? No redhead color? No shading on hair? And that's only ONE facet of this sucktastic, 7 year old character creator), and the overblown ego of the art department that is going to get their feelings hurt if I don't display their clown suits... Well I'm PAYING to play this game, and I'm not going to get attached to my character if I don't like the way they look.

 

Maybe this garbage is ok for the WoW kiddies who don't know any better, but I've been playing a different MMO for the past 7 years and expect TOR to reflect its 2011 creation date. Particularly given their repeated boasts that this will have all the features of a triple A title. So far, that's a very empty boast.

I would suggest people here read these articles:

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/some-clarifications-item-modifications

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/why-unify-color-chest-piece-gone-and-whats-next

 

I think these answer a lot of concerns and suggestions I have seen in this thread.

I read both of these when they were first published. And I'm ok with the concepts in them, as long as every last piece of gear comes in an Orange flavor and is available to crafters.

thers a lot more of important things to do then an apearence tab imho.

if they have some spare time in a year or so sure, make one but as of now this should be somewere down the bottom of stuff to do.

I would suggest people here read these articles:

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/some-clarifications-item-modifications

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/why-unify-color-chest-piece-gone-and-whats-next

 

I think these answer a lot of concerns and suggestions I have seen in this thread.

--

Now, if purple gear was fully moddable, players would simply farm the first boss, acquire 5 pair of boots, extract the armoring, mod and enhancements from the boots and slots them in their favorite Custom items. That actually sounds cool, but it really isn’t. Letting players extract the armoring mod from the purple items would trivialize end game gear progression and stop rewarding successful and dedicated players for their efforts.

So, instead of letting that happen, we prevented the Armoring, Hilt and Barrel from being extracted, but we also made sure of dropping purple Armoring mods of equivalent power as Operation loot. This means that players going the mod route can still take their favorite orange armor and make it as good as a operation purple armor (with some temporary caveats).

--

There are alternate solutions to this problem. For example, they could make the first items dropped in a raid come with a lower armor/weapon rating than the final items dropped off the last boss. If raid boots come with a rating of 88 and drop off the first boss, then a chest piece dropped off the final boss would come with a rating of 92, for example. That way, you'd still need to get to the last boss to acquire the best mod for your chest piece. This would also mean that any further chest piece you looted could be used to upgrade the boots you looted previously, allowing redundant loot drops in a raid to be put to some use (redundant loot drops will be more prevalent in this MMO versus, say, WoW, because of the smaller raid sizes.)

Furthermore, their fix isn't a fix. Currently, if an Operation drops a purple item that you like the look of, tough luck to you, buddy. Since the armor/weapon rating isn't upgradable, you'll be discarding it when you find something better. Yes, we can take our favourite orange armor and make it equivalent to the operation purple armor. But, we CANNOT take our favourite operational purple armor and make it as good as the next tier up. Since that armor is obviously going to be unique in it's design (at least, I hope it is, if it's raid loot) you aren't going to be able to find that look anywhere else.

And further still, their fix does nothing to address your character's appearance while leveling (for a game that promotes the creation of alts and experiencing every storyline, as well as the tons of money they spent on the cinematic quests and stories [more than other MMOS spend on leveling content] you'd think they'd place a higher level of priority on the leveling process than other games.) You are either A) stuck with throwaway green items that you like the look of, and are forced to take a stat hit, B) use the best item available to you, which may or may not be an item you like the look of, or C) use one of only a select few modifiable orange armor/weapon pieces at lower levels, which again may or may not be a look you desire.

Perhaps, by the time we get to end-game, we'll have found a full set of armor that fits our preferred style. That's no guarantee, but it's certainly possible. That doesn't change the fact that we don't have nearly so many options at low or mid-levels. While leveling, we have three options, two of which don't offer a reliable system of gear that we're guaranteed to like the look of, and one of which forces us to take a hit to our effectiveness.

Before, under the old (and arguably far superior) system, you were almost guaranteed to find a full set of armor that you both liked, and was fully -or nearly fully- modifiable by level 15 or so. AND you'd also have some modifiable items for your companion(s), too. Which was really great, as managing the armor sets for multiple companions can start to become a hassle, especially since you can't see the armor rating or armor stats of the armor equipped to companions who aren't currently with you. Under this new "improved" system, you don't even find modifiable accessories (non-chest items) until the mid 20's or early 30's even, unless you get very lucky and find a rare world drop.

-Macheath.

This crap again! When are the appearance tab freaks going to give up making all these garbage threads about the same topic over and over?

This argument will not go away until people can make their characters look the way they want.

I sometimes wonder if people actually read the thread instead of just jumping right in and trying to shout it down...

The game is 1 week old.

It took WoW 7 years to do it.

It might be a while.

The only game I played that had this right out of the gate was DC Universe Online, but when you make a super hero/villain you kinda need to make your own iconic look, so it was pretty much a requirement in that game.

thers a lot more of important things to do then an apearence tab imho.

To you.

How people's characters look is very, very important to some people. You're probably from WoW with it's abysmal character creator, so you're used to looking like Timothy Leary threw up.

This is something that's been long requested, and long ignored by Bioware, but there have been murmurs of assent over the past couple months, so since the game is pretty much launched now, it's time to get some info on what's next, namely, when is the Appearance Tab going in?

The issue hasn't been ignored by Bioware. They've responded countless times stating that with the mod system an appearance tab isn't needed.

That's Bioware disagreeing with you, not ignoring you.

The issue hasn't been ignored by Bioware. They've responded countless times stating that with the mod system an appearance tab isn't needed.

 

That's Bioware disagreeing with you, not ignoring you.

Sadly, the mod system does not do a good job of filling the void of an A-Tab.

You gimp yourself severely wearing orange gear rather than tier sets for PvE/PvP. Their base stats/the mods already in them are extremely high level compared to the mods you can scrounge up at level 50.

The issue hasn't been ignored by Bioware. They've responded countless times stating that with the mod system an appearance tab isn't needed.

 

That's Bioware disagreeing with you, not ignoring you.

Until the conditions in my quote are met, they are mistaken.

Let me also add that looking good should not be strictly reserved for the end game. Crafters need to be able to make Orange gear from level 15 or so on up.

I just want to clarify my own position here. I'm OK with the current system IF and only if every piece of gear has a fully modable (aka Orange) version and said modable version is craftable.

 

IOW as long as the current system is as flexible as a full blown Appearance Tab I'm good with it. If it's not, well the devs need to address that. Between the lame-*** character creation (5 hairstyles that don't look like emo, punk, or gang nonsense out of 30? Really? No real blonde color? Really? No redhead color? No shading on hair? And that's only ONE facet of this sucktastic, 7 year old character creator), and the overblown ego of the art department that is going to get their feelings hurt if I don't display their clown suits... Well I'm PAYING to play this game, and I'm not going to get attached to my character if I don't like the way they look.

 

Maybe this garbage is ok for the WoW kiddies who don't know any better, but I've been playing a different MMO for the past 7 years and expect TOR to reflect its 2011 creation date. Particularly given their repeated boasts that this will have all the features of a triple A title. So far, that's a very empty boast.

Until the conditions in my quote are met, they are mistaken.

 

Let me also add that looking good should not be strictly reserved for the end game. Crafters need to be able to make Orange gear from level 15 or so on up.

They can. My level 19 sage synthweaver already has 2 different orange patterns. I also have a few patterns I'm not able to learn yet.

http://www.swtor.com/blog/some-clarifications-item-modifications

Partially moddable premium (green) items were removed as they essentially lied to the players: an item missing a mod slot would never be able to match a high end non-moddable item. Instead, to compensate for the loss of diversity, orange versions of all green armors was created and given to the crafters. So, yes, if you see a green armor you really like, you still can have that appearance until end level. It does take a bit of work - you either need to become a crafter yourself, befriend one or trawl the GTN.

 

(Note: recipes for those orange appearances are discovered through Underworld Trading missions.This allows us to have a truly large number of those recipes without overwhelming the crafting trainer inventory. As a side effect, this opens up class quest green armor appearances from other classes as well as long as you fulfill the armor requirements.)

They can. My level 19 sage synthweaver already has 2 different orange patterns. I also have a few patterns I'm not able to learn yet.

Glad to hear the orange stuff comes early to crafters. I haven't been able to play much since I'm working 7x12 at the moment.

I played Lotro and Rift, both of which had appearance functionality. I've enjoyed them, but I find that an appearance tab waters down the idea of stat-based armor in a way that feels cheap. Here I am, wearing my titan-smashing gauntlets and fireproof beastplate. I wear them, and they give me the power to defeat my foes. But with an appearance tab, I'm not really wearing them. I am actually wearing overalls and a straw hat, but somehow siphoning off the power of my mighty helm of infinite destruction.

It just feels lame. With an appearance tab, why have stat based armor at all?

The mod system allows you to customize your look while retaining the idea that what you wear is actually helping you.

yawn. Customization is cool, but point and click customization is for single player games. If your robe looks like it took a long *** time to earn, then it should. I don't want some schmuck wearing the best robes in the game because he visited some vendor the right way.

Might be selfish or something, but that's the difference between single player and mmos, right?

I played Lotro and Rift, both of which had appearance functionality. I've enjoyed them, but I find that an appearance tab waters down the idea of stat-based armor in a way that feels cheap. Here I am, wearing my titan-smashing gauntlets and fireproof beastplate. I wear them, and they give me the power to defeat my foes. But with an appearance tab, I'm not really wearing them. I am actually wearing overalls and a straw hat, but somehow siphoning off the power of my mighty helm of infinite destruction.

 

It just feels lame. With an appearance tab, why have stat based armor at all?

 

The mod system allows you to customize your look while retaining the idea that what you wear is actually helping you.

This should be the OP because this is the best thought in this entire thread

It is extremly hard to get a full set of orange armor (if not downright impossible) at the moment. (Because of the low drop rates for the schematics in Underworld Trading.) So the promised appearance customization is non-existant.

Either make changes to the mod system, so we are actually able obtain a full set of orange armor of we want! (Yes, even as Level 10 character.) Or give us an appearances tab. (Still the easiest, tried and true solution for the problem.)

It is extremly hard to get a full set of orange armor (if not downright impossible) at the moment. (Because of the low drop rates for the schematics in Underworld Trading.) So the promised appearance customization is non-existant.

 

Either make changes to the mod system, so we are actually able obtain a full set of orange armor of we want! (Yes, even as Level 10 character.) Or give us an appearances tab. (Still the easiest, tried and true solution for the problem.)

I don't mean to come off the wrong way but if you want to be the awesomest of the awesomest at level 10 with minimal input, this genre isn't for you. MMO's tend to tie a decent-un reasonable amount of effort ("work") to get rewarded. If they didn't the game would be "over" very quickly. The game you're looking for is Skyrim, KOTOR, Fallout 3, etc.

A lot of people throw the "I'm not proposing removing anything, you don't have to use it if you don't want to" argument around.

 

The problem with that reasoning is that this is not a single player game and any change you add will affect all players regardless of whether they are interested in the new feature or not.

 

Personally I do not want anything like the WoW/DCUO appearance tab functionality. The current crafting implementation achieves the same results but also has a feeling of acomplishment to it.

Amen. it's not even a month in use people stop looking for easy cheesy hand me's and do a little work for what you want the current system is good and giving the game time to get into full swing it'll only get better. Wow had 7 years to get to where it was those of us that remember the original launch it had more than a few flaws. Give it time.

The game just started... Not all Patterns have been found... Yup that's the down side of starting a game at launch...

 

From my experience Oranges are mostly patterns found through "slicing" missions that Slicers will get from time to time...

Oranges are still inferior to an appearance management system, since they are much more hassle to come across and much more hassle to keep updated, they devalue the armor crafting professions, and they devalue rewarded and looted gear, which makes the "reward" factor of the game much less satisfying. Basically they are just a massive "fun" drain for absolutely no benefit.

1 - The systems is NEW ... Even the devs themselves says it still has to be worked on... They are working to make it better...

Yes, and we've been making suggestions on how they can make it better.

2 - As an other one said earlier... The Orange are made that you have to work to be able to keep your look... In real life when you change your running shoes... Will you call Nike and tell them "Hey I preferred that model last year... can you make me a special pair that look EXACTLY the same but have the same new features you put on the new ones ???

No.

But this is a game.

3 - Some one brought a pretty interesting idea... I hope dev will read this... it would be a great idea that a "Synthweaver" (for example) would be able to transform any force armor from "Not moddable with stats" to full "Orange Moddable" items without any stats... So from that idea ... a "none" synthweaver that likes the look of that said armor... go see his friendly Synthweaver put it in a "special" trade window and RE it to become "orange" without stats... And maybe makes it a possible "crit" re-eng and the synthweaver can learn the schem...

No.

Players should not have to seek out crafters for this sort of function. If it's an option, it should be available via vendors. Perhaps crafters could do this for slightly less than the vendor would charge, but there always needs to be a reasonable player-free alternative.

4 - This game is an MMO ... Once again Let's go back to the BASIC "M"MO... Multi-Player... MULTI... Meaning MANY... That means a "society" kinda thing... That means you cannot survive on your own... That means if you want something... Well you might have to ask help from someone else... If you want Oranges ... either make the mods your self... But you won't be able to make the orange armor yourself... Or make the orange yourself and find someone to help you mod your Armors...

No.

MMOs shouldn't require dependence on other players. Other players are around, they can be interacted with, they can help you out with things, but they should never be necessary. Player interaction should be for FUN, not because you can't function without it.

5 - To the OP ... giving example about the remote control... the second floor... I would suggest instead of putting it on the second floor... Put it outside... maybe you'll realize there is a real world outside... and you cannot modify everything you want just because you had something that looked like it...

Yes, mom. Now I'm going to get back to playing a game to have fun, rather than playing it as a second career.

I detailed a system before the board wipe where a crafter picks up an appropriate Grey item and RE's it to learn the Green version. Then RE's the Green multiple to learn 3-5 Blue recipes, then RE's each of them to learn the Blue with one slot (2 on a crit), RE again to learn the Purple version, RE that to learn the Purple version with 2 slots (3 on a crit) and RE that to learn the Orange version.

I would only support that much effort and expense if the orange piece generated at the top came pre-stuffed with a full suite of purple mods, so that it had superior stats to the purple versions you had to sacrifice to learn it.

But that isn't true, let me clearify what they REALLY mean.

 

"You can still work hard if you want, WE just don't want too...."

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. There's an anime character named "Rock Lee" who is a very hard worker. He sets a goal for himself to, say, do a thousand push-ups, and if he fails at that goal, he has a penalty goal, like "run a thousand laps." Nobody forces these rules on him, and he can quit at any time, but he likes the reward of hard work, so he sets these goals, and he has the self control to complete them. He doesn't impose those rules on anyone else, because he feels that the reward comes from setting and achieving the goal. If you believe there is value in YOU acquiring and maintaining a full set of orange gear, then you pursue that goal, and you enforce the rules you choose to set for yourself. You shouldn't have to force those same rules on me for you to gain enjoyment from the process.

It's like those people that were whinging about how Normal mode was "too easy" for Dragon Age 2. Well there are two harder modes than that, feel free to play those if you like! Make your own fun. I prefer a system that is designed so that the baseline experience is fairly easy, so that anyone can get in there and enjoy it, but that allows players to set their own rules of self-control to make things more challenging.

Like take space combat, for example. If you get all the upgrades, it becomes really very easy to beat (beyond the first few stages that are always easy), but if you want more of a challenge, just don't equip all the available upgrades, or set personal goals like destroying targets that aren't necessary objectives, and judge your own performance based on your own criteria.

I just cannot justify those who want to make other people's lives harder and less fun simply because they're incapable of setting and maintaining their own rigorous gameplay rules.

One important aspect of games for me is the loot feeling rewarding, and with the current orange system it just fails to feel so. Most gear drop is just vendor trash because I dislike their look, and their stats doesn't matter.

 

My argument is that if appearance and stat customization were two different things not tied together, like it is in the current orange system, sometimes I'd get ugly gear for their stats, and sometimes I'd get bad gear for their looks, increasing the chances the loot having any rewarding feeling. In the current system is just: Oh, I dislike the looks, vendor trash no matter the stats...

That's the problem I'm having too. I'm constantly getting gear that either looks awesome, but is non-modifiable and has worse stats than what I've got, so it's trash, or it has great stats but looks stupid, so I'll either swap it in for a couple levels and bare looking stupid for a while (not fun) or do without the good stats until I can find/mod something with both good stats and good appearance (also not fun). WHY? Why is "fun" a bad thing?

Even the most "generous" proposals for improving the orange gear system would do little to solve this problem. They might make it slightly easier to find orange gear, but most non-orange gear would still be complete vendor trash unless the system also included some way to make practical use of them. I mean, the only way I could think to solve that problem while retaining the gist of the "orange" system would be if any player, regardless of crew skills, could RE any piece of gear they found into an orange version, OR could RE it into a mod that they could slot into their existing orange gear. This would be the only way in which a piece of ugly but strong gear could be made useful, or a piece of gorgeous but weak gear could be made useful, while retaining the "orange only" system for appearance control.

I would suggest people here read these articles:

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/some-clari...-modifications

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/why-unify-...and-whats-next

 

I think these answer a lot of concerns and suggestions I have seen in this thread.

Nope.

This crap again! When are the appearance tab freaks going to give up making all these garbage threads about the same topic over and over?

Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but I'd likely give it up after they add the appearance tab system to the game, assuming it works well enough.

The issue hasn't been ignored by Bioware. They've responded countless times stating that with the mod system an appearance tab isn't needed.

Claiming that a problem is not a problem is ignoring the problem.

Appearance tab would break the mod system, and since I kinda like that, I hope we never get one.

No it wouldn't, and repeating this lie only istracts from the issue at hand.

It just feels lame. With an appearance tab, why have stat based armor at all?

I don't see them as mutually exclusive, but forced to choose I would much rather have an appearance tab than to have statbased armor. Consider the lore. There is no statbased armor in the lore. "high level" characters in the movies and books and other materials do not wear functionally superior gear to low level characters. There might be some minor distinctions between "cloth" and "heavy" armors, but not between the clothing worn by New Hope Luke and that worn by Jedi Luke. I think it's best to keep the stats of SW gear separate in your own head from appearance. It just gets silly if you take the idea of the gear "empowering" your character too seriously. Instead, just consider it that your character gains access to more fancy gear as he gains status, and also that your character gets stronger as he goes, and as it so happens, a portion of that strengthening is attached to "gear", but really appearance and stats should have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

I don't want some schmuck wearing the best robes in the game because he visited some vendor the right way.

Nobody's talking about that. Nobody's talking about making it any easier to get access to high level gear. If you look like you're wearing a full set of epic endgame gear, then you must have found some epic, endgame gear in some epic, endgame content. All this system would do is make it so that if you do have epic, endgame gear, but think that it makes you look ridiculous, then you can choose to look like any other looks you've acquired as you've leveled, while retaining those epic, engage stats.

If they didn't the game would be "over" very quickly. The game you're looking for is Skyrim, KOTOR, Fallout 3, etc.

or DCUO, Champions Online, CoH, LotRO, WoW, etc.

Wow had 7 years to get to where it was those of us that remember the original launch it had more than a few flaws. Give it time.

Yeah, but WoW came out seven years ago, and games have gotten better since then. Most games that have launched after WoW have had an appearance management system in at launch. There are places where it's fair to compare a game to an older game at launch, and unfair to expect them to have all the features and content that took that older game years to develop, but in other cases, a new game does need to learn from the mistakes of older games and get in line with the new. Nobody is expecting SWTOR to launch with full freedom space combat like SWG took a year after launch to develop, or for it to have a full 80+ levels of content like WoW has now, but an appearance tab is definitely something that should have been in the game months ago.

 

I don't see them as mutually exclusive, but forced to choose I would much rather have an appearance tab than to have statbased armor. Consider the lore. There is no statbased armor in the lore. "high level" characters in the movies and books and other materials do not wear functionally superior gear to low level characters. There might be some minor distinctions between "cloth" and "heavy" armors, but not between the clothing worn by New Hope Luke and that worn by Jedi Luke. I think it's best to keep the stats of SW gear separate in your own head from appearance. It just gets silly if you take the idea of the gear "empowering" your character too seriously. Instead, just consider it that your character gains access to more fancy gear as he gains status, and also that your character gets stronger as he goes, and as it so happens, a portion of that strengthening is attached to "gear", but really appearance and stats should have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

If you must bring in Star Wars lore, then riddle me this: why doesn't my lightsaber kill everything in one hit?

The answer is simple: This is a game, and this game uses time-honored systems specifically designed to allow players to go beyond the limitations of the original fiction while immersing themselves in the essence of the fictitious world. These systems have been honed by many people over many years in an attempt to bring players as close as possible to the original lore, while providing an engaging gameplay experience.

The mod system allows a wide range of appearance customization which will expand as you level, and doesn't invalidate one of the core mechanics of the game.

If you don't want stat-based gear, I believe The Secret World is going in that direction.

look is very important to me too. but to some degree, i enjoy working for that look and working to keep it up, and that is what the mod system requires and encourages you to do.

as far as looks go, an appearance tab on the other hand would render any work useless because who cares to do any more work if you get your perfect appearance on level 10 and never need to do anything again to keep it?

so as initially said, i do prefer to work to get my look and to keep it. which is why i love the modding system that already perfectly enables us to customize our look, and why i hope they expand that (maybe a way to convert an item to empty orange ones just for the look) and NEVER add an appearance tab for you lazy whiners.

If you must bring in Star Wars lore, then riddle me this: why doesn't my lightsaber kill everything in one hit?

Cortosis weave in the armors/clothing. Also the light sabers seem to be a bit weaker than they ended up after a few thousand years.

as far as looks go, an appearance tab on the other hand would render any work useless because who cares to do any more work if you get your perfect appearance on level 10 and never need to do anything again to keep it?

If you get your perfect look by level 10 then you shouldn't have to work to keep it. Take DCUO as an example. In that game, about 20-30% of the game's total costume pieces are available in character creation (although you only get to leave CC with the clothes on your back, so if you want options you need to re-collect all those styles later through other means), After that, another 30-40% of the styles are available between 1-30 (cap) from vendors, drops, quest rewards, etc. Then, the remainder of styles are available only at endgame in the form of loot and their version of "Commendation tokens", so there is plenty of gear that says "I'm level 30 and full of win."

So they have plenty of "endgame" gear with endgame stats and endgame appearances, but I've never seen anyone that actually wears a full suite of endgame loot visually, because in DCUO the two can be managed independently. Of my six endgame characters in that game, most have at least a couple pieces of level 30 gear showing (not usually the piece they have buffing their stats in that slot, but something that you'd need to be level 30 to earn at least), but usually also have several pieces that com from much lower levels, in some cases even bits that they chose in character creation have remained from 1-30+. Not one of them has survived the trip without changing their appearances in some way though, not one has been satisfied with their appearance at level 10 and never found at least a piece or two that they considered to be an improvement. But if I had, then I'd much rather to be able to keep that look than to be forced to change it, or have to jump through crazy hoops to keep it.

Now I'm not expecting a system with quite as much freedom as DCUO's, for example I'd be fine with having no choices at character creation (although being able to choose between 2-3 class-appropriate starter set options would be nice), but even just keeping the post CC appearance tabs would be great, allowing even level 10 characters the option to choose between the 3-4 tops and pants styles they're likely to have come across over that period. I guarantee you that if that were an option then even by Esseles/Black Talon you'd be noticing a lot more player creativity in appearance.