Greetings everyone. Two months ago, I have decided to start a blog about shadow tanking since I was quite frustrated by the lack of relevant information regarding this tanking class in PvE.

 

http://squishyshadowtank.blogspot.cz/

 

It is a mixture of guide, random information and my personal opinions and experience. I will leave it up to you if it is worth reading or not. Any comments and insights are, of course, always welcome.

 

Take care everyone

Edited February 19, 2013 by yllesius
additional info

You messed up on your BiS gearing actually. The DG proc heal relic actually contributes substantially more than the PvP passive Defense relic, so you definitely want to be using one of those.

 

Also, I've been experimenting with using a PvP passive relic compared to the DG abs proc relic and, even though the math I've seen and done says that I *should* be getting better returns out of the passive relic, I routinely come out of fights with less damage taken when using the DG proc relic. My theory is that the extra ~56 Endurance is making a pretty substantial impact via self healing that overcomes the nominal "worseness" of the burst Absorb compared to the passive Defense, especially considering the depths of DR that we get into with current BiS mitigation stacked gear.

Atm, I'm using DG absorb proc relic and WH passive defense (don't pvp much to get EWH).

 

I disagree with the heal proc relic for tanking though. I'm out there to mitigate, not heal myself. Had various discussions on this topic and I have never been convinced by anyone that the healing proc is better than approximately 2% of defense rating. It is the critical time when you drop low on hp, pop Deflection and you absolutely need to parry. 78% vs 80% can make the difference. And at that point, it could be dying vs healing myself for 500. Plus, the amount of overhealing healers provide pretty much counters any need for extra self-healing done by tanks - methinks.

 

You would need to do like 30 parses on all the bosses out there to at least slightly counter the RNG of actually getting the shield proc, defense proc - considering different mechanics for each boss, use of cds at the proper time, damage done by the dps (longer time equals more dmg taken etc etc). The damage I take - from the same boss, with the same ops group, using the same cd rotation at the same specific times - sometimes differs even by 40k.

 

I believe one can't simply say they get better results with such or such when there are so many relevant factors in play - some of which we can't even affect ourselves as tanks.

 

Your response is much appreciated, Kitru. And don't get me wrong: Saying you can't easily give me a proof that heal proc relic is BiS, I can't easily prove it isn't. I'm always open for further discussion

Edited February 19, 2013 by yllesius
additional info

And don't get me wrong: Saying you can't easily give me a proof that heal proc relic is BiS, I can't easily prove it isn't.

 

I'm not, nor have I *ever*, said that I can't easily give proof that the DG heal proc relic is BiS because, you know, it is, and it's well known to be. What you seem to have misread is that I'm vacillating between the PvP passive Defense relic and DG absorb proc relic being BiS based upon my empirical observations rather than raw math. The DG heal proc relic and the DG absorb proc relic are not the same thing.

 

As to proving it's the best, the first step is discovering the equivalence between 2% Defense and to 24 hp/sec. Based upon a baseline total mitigation of 77.4% (0.95 * 0.65 * (1 - 0.65 * 0.6) * 0.6), 2% additional Defense increases total mitigation to 78.1% (a .9% decrease in incoming damage). Keeping in mind this ignores the existing ~175 hp/sec that a Shadow tank should be getting at a minimum (8% every 15 seconds at 25 hp), for the two of those to be equal, the raw, pre-mitigation incoming M/R DPS needs to be ~2700: if the pre-mitigation incoming M/R DPS is less than that, the heal proc is better; if it's higher, it's worse. The only boss where that is true is NiM Kephess, though the fact that you're supposed to blow tank CDs while tanking him skews that substantially (if you add in Deflection, the required pre-mitigation incoming M/R DPS needs to be ~3300; of course, because of the need to burn tank CDs while tanking Kephess, the actual BiS relic for that fight isn't the heal relic *or* the passive PvP relic but is instead the Defense use relic). Furthermore, it should be noted that the PvP passive relic doesn't absolutely *nothing* for F/T intensive fights, of which there are *plenty* in the current tier of content (T&Z, Twin tanks, Kephess the Undying, etc.).

 

Conversely, we could compare the end results on the most intensive fight in the game. Using KeyboardNinja's numbers, Warlord Kephess puts out 3612 pre-mitigation M/R damage. With just the baseline mitigation (77.4% for M/R, 44.1% for K/E F/T, and 28.3% for I/E F/T), we would get 2976 total incoming DPS (3612 * 0.774 + 249 * 0.441 + 249 * 0.283). With the PvP damage relic increasing M/R mitigation to 78.1% and subtracting 175 from the end total to account for self healing, we would arrive at ~2826 required HPS from healers. With the proc heal relic simply increasing self healing to 200, we would arrive at ~2776 require HPS from healers. Since the proc heal relic requires *less* external healing, the proc relic wins out.

 

In short, the heal proc is demonstrably better for Shadow tanks because nothing in the game hits hard enough with the appropriate attack types to actually justify the increased Defense overcoming the improved self healing.

This isn't correct, because this math is based on theoretical assumptions which are not ultimately correct and vary each fight. The numbers simply differ all the time to some extent.

 

Saying you need slightly less external healing while you take slightly more damage is just ill thinking when you are a tank. If I exaggerate, you could extend this thought into saying one of the healers can dps every 5th ability they cast instead of healing, because the tank heals himself enough. Why would you try to do something other player is supposed to when the outcome will be just overhealing at certain points? Or are you trying to tell me that DG geared healers rely on you doing 25 more hps otherwise they would not keep you alive?

 

Not to mention that these small chunks of heals are coming at irrelevant points and do not solve spikes. It is just a bonus which looks good on the final summary. By the way, how much of the final self-healing is actually overhealing? It may as well proc when you get topped to 100% and it is just absolutely wasted proc. This is not included in your calculations. You might be surprised how bad the relic turns out to be when you discover half of those procs are never any actual healing.

 

Again, all I'm saying is that you try to prove something based on hard facts, but the hard facts are not correct. Each log is different, procs are random and you can't simply say this is how it stands.

 

PS: When you mention Kephess, I want to see the difference between damage mitigated by parrying Trandoshan attacks and the self-healing done without the passive defense boost. What if you don't have any hard AoE stun? What if they (don't) miss because of gunslingers debuff? Too many random things absolutely screwing all the ideal theory based on numbers.

Edited February 19, 2013 by yllesius
mistakes

Saying you need slightly less external healing while you take slightly more damage is just ill thinking when you are a tank.

 

Healing you provide yourself with is healing that a healer doesn't have to provide, saving them resources and potentially CDs as well. Just because healers heal doesn't mean that a tank can't heal him- or herself for the same reason that just because you're a tank doesn't mean you don't need to actually attack and deal damage (because, honestly, you can hold threat by just taunt spamming after the first 30 seconds of a fight). You're functionally saying that the self healing that Shadows get (which is actually the *reason* Shadows require the least outside healing) is worthless, which it isn't. Shadow self healing is actually one of the best tools we've got at our disposal. Arguing that because it's reduced to overhealing sometimes that you shouldn't actually value it is completely ignorant as well: when you're not tanking a boss directly, your Defense is doing nothing for you; when you're tanking a boss that deals I/E damage, your Defense is doing nothing for you.

 

You might be surprised how bad the relic turns out to be when you discover half of those procs are never any actual healing.

 

First off, it's a HoT: unless you aren't taking damage for 3 second time frames and are topped off the entire time, you're going to get some use out of it. Secondly, you're a tank: if you're not taking damage on a constant or near constant basis, you're doing something wrong (because, no matter how you do it, you can't expect to chain dodge every attack made against you). It's for this exact reason that every Shadow tank should be using Telekinetic Throw as soon as they get 3 stacked of Harnessed Shadows: the damage is amazing, but you can pretty much guarantee that, even if you don't need the healing *right now*, you're going to get hit within the next few seconds. Of course, you'll also get some people like KeyboardNinja that actively tell their healers to leave them at ~90% hp so that their self heals are never wasted. Personally, I don't do that, but there is some logic to it.

 

Each log is different, procs are random and you can't simply say this is how it stands.

 

I've checked my logs *numerous* times, and experimented with relics time and time again. The healing relic always ends up with the least healing required. You might not like it, but that's how it lands. And, yes, external healing required is the more important metric compared to damage taken: you're a Shadow and have self healing; paying attention only to damage taken is simply sticking your head in the sand and ignoring a substantial portion of your actual total mitigation.

 

Too many random things absolutely screwing all the ideal theory based on numbers.

 

It's not just based on pure theory (and the whole "ideal theory" isn't cast aside by variations accrued due to randomness and variance in playstyle; it's called the Law of Large Numbers and it has this *weird* little effect where, after a sufficient number of data points, everything approaches the mathematically ideal chance, assuming the variables are properly accounted for, which is one of the things that actually happens with regularity on these forums since the correction of assumptions is a pretty big deal to some of us). It's based on empirical evidence as well. You're completely ignoring the whole "Defense doesn't do anything to F/T attacks" aspect of everything, not to mention the fact that it's been sussed out *numerous* times by people that aren't just KeyboardNinja and myself: the PvP passive relics are *not* BiS compared to the healing proc relic. Just because you know what *you* like doesn't mean that it's actually the mathematical BiS (and your argument that "herpderp Math doesn't matter" doesn't really make sense considering the game is built upon a foundation of actual math).

And yet yllesius is correct that many of the models being used are not reflective of reality. I don't know why people think that sticking every boss in a blender and hitting purée will give them all the info they need to tank.

 

To evaluate relics you need to consider the effectiveness of each. A war hero defense relic does absolutely nothing if you are not taking melee/ranged damage - this can account for a large percentage of the fight. The heal relic is devalued when it over-heals. The value of "on use" relics are enhanced by periodic spike damage but can be very bad/awkward on some fights.

 

Anyways, I'll keep your blog in my bookmarks and see if I can comment on anything. I see you are putting points in Expertise which is a really terrible talent. Moving those points to Upheaval will give you higher dps and a higher uptime of Force Synergy.

You're functionally saying that the self healing that Shadows get (which is actually the *reason* Shadows require the least outside healing) is worthless, which it isn't.

 

No. I am saying the amount of additional self-heal you gain via heal relic is negligible and cannot be relied on. It doesn't mean healers can heal you less. They will still use the exact same abilities which result into overheal done by them or your self-heal.

 

I have reached the point now where I simply don't believe there are ultimately 2 particular BiS relics for every possible circumstance.

 

First off, it's a HoT: unless you aren't taking damage for 3 second time frames and are topped off the entire time, you're going to get some use out of it. Secondly, you're a tank: if you're not taking damage on a constant or near constant basis, you're doing something wrong (because, no matter how you do it, you can't expect to chain dodge every attack made against you).

 

You were referring to DtPS and HPS. But the reality is single hits are usually coming in certain time frames providing 1-4 second pauses of no damage taken. Healers also don't heal you via flowing heals all the time (except for abilitites such as Healing Trance or Kolto Cloud) but also either 3 sec ticking HoT or 1.5-3 second cast heal. So DtPS and HPS is fine to get an idea of what is happening overall but is not entirely real. For example, in TFB the last boss: your average DtPS after the fight would be 1000 (made up number), yet, you are not tanking the boss in the second phase for like 30-45 seconds. So, there is a time where your DtPS is let's say 2000 for 45 seconds and then 0 for another 45 seconds. How does the self-heal or HPS fit into that? Same for Kephess tank switch or Kephess the Undying second phase etc etc.

 

To comment on the 'doing something wrong'.. Almost every fight provides periods of time (longer or shorter) where you effectively don't tank (EC NiM: Sonic Paralysis, tanking Zorn while he does Baradium Toss, Defensive Systems on TT, Shield phase on Firebrand side, Vorgath field clicker, Probe tank when probe is not active, Kephess in between phases, when the other tank tanks the Bomber etc etc). Again, DtPS and HPS does not give you answer to anything in terms of certain parts of the fight.

 

Consider Sage HPS, the amount of HPS they get via Salvation. Very relevant huh

 

Of course, you'll also get some people like KeyboardNinja that actively tell their healers to leave them at ~90% hp so that their self heals are never wasted. Personally, I don't do that, but there is some logic to it.

 

Healers can't control this effectively. They can crit + there is some RNG to healing numbers as well based on the min and max possible. This is just a funny thing to me.

 

And, yes, external healing required is the more important metric compared to damage taken: you're a Shadow and have self healing; paying attention only to damage taken is simply sticking your head in the sand and ignoring a substantial portion of your actual total mitigation.

 

So, what you're saying is that the HPS you provide yourself is mitigation? That's new terminology to me, but ok. Another thing. The self healing you do should make up for the additional damage you take because of lower armor rating. In ideal world maybe of course, but according to various logs of various people, it pretty much reflects this basic idea (factors such as having a competent player squeezing the most of their tank take place here and are very variable again).

 

Let me ask you one thing. The healing proc relic doesn't provide any additional benefit to a Shadow tank. So you consider it as BiS for every single tanking class?

 

You're completely ignoring the whole "Defense doesn't do anything to F/T attacks" aspect of everything

 

This is just your statement based on your perception and it is incorrect. I am fairly aware of all the attack types of all the bosses and know it plays a huge role in learning how to tank different content effectively. Actually, this is the most important thing for a Shadow tank considering the nature of our cooldowns

 

Just because you know what *you* like doesn't mean that it's actually the mathematical BiS.

 

I have never mathematically proved WH passive relic is BiS and never even tried to. Neither have you proven that heal proc relic is BiS - mathematically.

No. I am saying the amount of additional self-heal you gain via heal relic is negligible and cannot be relied on. It doesn't mean healers can heal you less. They will still use the exact same abilities which result into overheal done by them or your self-heal.

This right here is the truth.

1) No. I am saying the amount of additional self-heal you gain via heal relic is negligible and cannot be relied on.

 

2) So, what you're saying is that the HPS you provide yourself is mitigation? That's new terminology to me, but ok. Another thing. The self healing you do should make up for the additional damage you take because of lower armor rating.

 

3) Let me ask you one thing. The healing proc relic doesn't provide any additional benefit to a Shadow tank. So you consider it as BiS for every single tanking class?

 

4) I have never mathematically proved WH passive relic is BiS and never even tried to. Neither have you proven that heal proc relic is BiS - mathematically.

 

1&4 - the healing from the relic is NOT negligible. 24 HPS is a considerable amount of self healing. And of you take the time to go though the various threads you can see the math.... And you can see that the mitigational equivalent can reach as high as 180+ defense.... Because...

 

2 - because our self-healing IS a form of mitigation. It's called active mitigation (same concept as applied to the DK in Wow). And your description of how it offsets us being clothies is exactly why it's mitgation. So it's more than just a "terminology" issue. It's a lack of understanding the class....which brings us to comment 3

 

3 - it DOES provide for Shadows over other classes. We are the only ones that generate all the self healing that cause the relic to proc in the first place. So the relic would be utterly useless for other tanks. Shadows and Assassins are unique and don't compare well to our other tanking counterparts. You can't look at mitigation, defense, healing, etc. the same way you would them.

So the relic would be utterly useless for other tanks.

 

This is entirely correct. My mistake forgetting about the initial healing needed to initiate the proc. Thank you for correcting me.

 

24 HPS is a considerable amount of self healing. And of you take the time to go though the various threads you can see the math....

 

I can see the math, but it is based on analysis of average numbers and absolutely does not reflect critical points/mechanics of various fights. Again, theory based on average numbers is irrelevant. It can be enough for you, I call it simplifying the actual reality.

 

because our self-healing IS a form of mitigation. It's called active mitigation (same concept as applied to the DK in Wow). And your description of how it offsets us being clothies is exactly why it's mitgation. So it's more than just a "terminology" issue.

 

I just don't accept this terminology, no matter how widely it is used. But that does not matter much. I still pursue the quest to get my actual mitigation (that means defense rating, passive damage reduction, shield chance and absorption in my terminology) as close to Vanguards and Guardians as possible. I treat healing as an extra mechanic shadow has to close the gap between our damage taken and other tanks' damage taken. Saying we take more damage, we will just accept it and heal through it by getting a healing relic is not how it works in the real situations. Because at the end of the day, you don't make life easier for healers, you just get slightly higher HPS in the final analysis which tells you nothing about its actual impact on the whole fight.

 

Again, if it is enough for you, fine by me. Just don't try to persuade me with such a shallow approach.

Edited February 20, 2013 by yllesius

No. I am saying the amount of additional self-heal you gain via heal relic is negligible and cannot be relied on. It doesn't mean healers can heal you less. They will still use the exact same abilities which result into overheal done by them or your self-heal.

 

I have reached the point now where I simply don't believe there are ultimately 2 particular BiS relics for every possible circumstance.

 

Why can't it be relied on? The first time a healer is responsible for a Shadow/Assassin, they might pre-emptively heal based on any movements in the HP bar (because they're not accounting for the self-healing portion of our mitigation). With a little experience, the same healer should recognize that said health bar is ticking up substantially on its own on a more-or-less constant basis and reduce their healing throughput accordingly.

 

If they don't do that, they're bad healers, and the problem ceases to be one of tank relic selection, and becomes one of group member selection.

 

You were referring to DtPS and HPS. But the reality is single hits are usually coming in certain time frames providing 1-4 second pauses of no damage taken. Healers also don't heal you via flowing heals all the time (except for abilitites such as Healing Trance or Kolto Cloud) but also either 3 sec ticking HoT or 1.5-3 second cast heal. So DtPS and HPS is fine to get an idea of what is happening overall but is not entirely real. For example, in TFB the last boss: your average DtPS after the fight would be 1000 (made up number), yet, you are not tanking the boss in the second phase for like 30-45 seconds. So, there is a time where your DtPS is let's say 2000 for 45 seconds and then 0 for another 45 seconds. How does the self-heal or HPS fit into that? Same for Kephess tank switch or Kephess the Undying second phase etc etc.

 

To comment on the 'doing something wrong'.. Almost every fight provides periods of time (longer or shorter) where you effectively don't tank (EC NiM: Sonic Paralysis, tanking Zorn while he does Baradium Toss, Defensive Systems on TT, Shield phase on Firebrand side, Vorgath field clicker, Probe tank when probe is not active, Kephess in between phases, when the other tank tanks the Bomber etc etc). Again, DtPS and HPS does not give you answer to anything in terms of certain parts of the fight.

 

Consider Sage HPS, the amount of HPS they get via Salvation. Very relevant huh

 

This whole section is just a morass of silliness and logical fallacy. If you're not tanking, no other relic is doing ANYTHING for you whatsoever. If you take incidental AoE damage, the healing relic is still doing its job (provided that you're not just standing there with your thumb up your butt). That makes it even comparably better than any other tanking relic because it works even when you're not tanking.

 

Yes, there are times in certain fights when you're not taking significant damage. At such times, you can't logically make an argument that any other relic (except, perhaps, a Power relic) is doing anything for you whatsoever. You would have an equally hard time arguing that said Power relic is an ideal choice the rest of the time when you are taking damage.

 

Healers can't control this effectively. They can crit + there is some RNG to healing numbers as well based on the min and max possible. This is just a funny thing to me.

 

There is always some crit and RNG, but you'd be surprised at how easy it is for a competent healer to not rampantly overheal. They should be aware of their normal crit and non-crit healing values for each of their heals, their approximate crit rate, and thus their average expected heal. They shouldn't be healing you if the expected average heal is greater than the margin between your current HP and your target HP, except in situations when you know large burst damage is coming (and there isn't a single fight in this game with unpredictable large burst requiring being topped off at all times).

 

So, what you're saying is that the HPS you provide yourself is mitigation? That's new terminology to me, but ok. Another thing. The self healing you do should make up for the additional damage you take because of lower armor rating. In ideal world maybe of course, but according to various logs of various people, it pretty much reflects this basic idea (factors such as having a competent player squeezing the most of their tank take place here and are very variable again).

 

Let me ask you one thing. The healing proc relic doesn't provide any additional benefit to a Shadow tank. So you consider it as BiS for every single tanking class?

 

Already addressed, but absolutely yes. Mitigation refers to a tank's ability to reduce the apparent amount of damage they take from external sources. Dodging an attack, shielding an attack, resisting an attack, reducing damage taken via armor, and restoring HP via self-healing are all forms of mitigation, because all perform the same function - they reduce the amount of external healing required.

 

If you take a look at logs and combine DTPS with eHPS you wind up with a DTPS profile very similar to (and usually superior to) other tank ACs. So yes, it does *exactly* what it says on the tin.

 

And no, as Grumptard said, healing proc relic is NOT BiS for any other tank AC because it only procs on heals given, and only Shadow/Assassin has a mechanic that counts under that category. In fact, the proc heal relic is *only* BiS for Shadow/Assassin tanks, and no other AC. That's because 100% of our healing is self-focused and there's no chance of the relic proc'ing on the wrong target (e.g. a CC'd enemy)

 

I have never mathematically proved WH passive relic is BiS and never even tried to. Neither have you proven that heal proc relic is BiS - mathematically.

 

It's been proven in about 4 different threads between the Shadow/Assassin forums and the tanking forum. Sorry that you haven't seen it.

 

About the only time I wouldn't rate one as optimal is Warlord Kephess, as damage taken is quite low until tanking Kephess himself, at which points CDs rule the day, making on-use relics more valuable.

 

Shoop da woop.

 

There are a couple others I can't find at the drop of a hat, by people other than KeyboardNinja doing the math and coming to the same conclusion.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Omophorus

As far as healing on a shadow goes you have to think of it on terms of mitigation.

The self heal and process heal from the relic ARE MITIGATION. Say you are a BIS min maxed shadow, with the process relic you're pulling 260+ hps on good fights. Now let's say you have 2000 incoming pre-mitigation damage having that extra hps is effectively like having an additional 13% damage reduction. Now let's say the hps given by the relic is 25 thats efectively 1.25% damage reduction. Which is effective across all damage types, while the 2% defence chance only effects m/r. The DG healing relic being used as a tanking tool and being BIS on a shadow tank is not opinion. It is proven undoubtable fact

 

 

Pardon my spelling errors, I'm posting from work and don't feel like taking the time to proofread

I would like to thank all contributors for their opinions and facts they have shared in this thread. I might agree with something said, also disagree with certain points. Nevertheless, it has been an enlighting series of posts which I am grateful for.

 

I wish you all happy gaming

Edited February 20, 2013 by yllesius

Yes, good discussion. Hell... It even gives you future topic for your blog:p

I can see the math, but it is based on analysis of average numbers and absolutely does not reflect critical points/mechanics of various fights. Again, theory based on average numbers is irrelevant. It can be enough for you, I call it simplifying the actual reality.

 

It's very frustrating getting people to understand this - and I've pretty much given up hope that I will get any response other than hand-waving dismissal.

 

I just don't accept this terminology, no matter how widely it is used. But that does not matter much. I still pursue the quest to get my actual mitigation (that means defense rating, passive damage reduction, shield chance and absorption in my terminology) as close to Vanguards and Guardians as possible. I treat healing as an extra mechanic shadow has to close the gap between our damage taken and other tanks' damage taken. Saying we take more damage, we will just accept it and heal through it by getting a healing relic is not how it works in the real situations. Because at the end of the day, you don't make life easier for healers, you just get slightly higher HPS in the final analysis which tells you nothing about its actual impact on the whole fight.

 

Again, if it is enough for you, fine by me. Just don't try to persuade me with such a shallow approach.

 

I believe that self-healing is equivalent to mitigation/absorption provided a factor is used to correct for over-healing. The good news is that over-healing generally goes down with increased damage taken - so it's more useful when you need it! For a high damage fight I would consider 90% to be the maximum expected efficiency of self-healing. I.e. 10% is lost to over-healing. On most fights the over-healing is closer to 30%-50%. Obviously this really is fight dependent.

 

It's been proven in about 4 different threads between the Shadow/Assassin forums and the tanking forum. Sorry that you haven't seen it.

 

It's not really a convincing proof. It's using a fixed incoming DPS based on logs, so it includes all the down time, phase transitions, tank swaps, etc. Also it's based on 8-man fights or nightmare pilgrim so the incoming dps is very low. It doesn't account for over-healing. Basically every simplification enhances the apparent value of the healing relic. If something needs multiple advantages to just barely come out ahead I have to question the conclusions.

It's not really a convincing proof. It's using a fixed incoming DPS based on logs, so it includes all the down time, phase transitions, tank swaps, etc. Also it's based on 8-man fights or nightmare pilgrim so the incoming dps is very low. It doesn't account for over-healing. Basically every simplification enhances the apparent value of the healing relic. If something needs multiple advantages to just barely come out ahead I have to question the conclusions.

 

I've actually done most of my validation of the relics based upon practical use. While it's not a massive sample size, I've compared performance in numerous fights with various relic loadouts and the self heal relic has *consistently* ended up with me receiving less healing from external sources. These experiments are also why I use the DG abs proc relic rather than a PvP passive relic: while it doesn't make sense from a mathematical standpoint (2% Defense at all times compared to 8% Absorb 30% of the time), empirical evidence suggests that, somehow, I end up requiring less outside healing when using the Abs proc relic. My working theory is that the extra 50-ish Endurance is having a not-insubstantial impact, but it's strange because it just doesn't jive with the numbers.

 

As to the numbers used and their inability to perfectly replicate reality, you don't *need* to perfectly replicate reality. The numbers themselves are accurate enough and they sync well enough with the empirical evidence that conclusions can be drawn relatively easily. While they're not *absolutely perfect*, they're good enough to draw conclusions: with the exception of a few situations of extreme burst DPS, the heal proc relic is absolute BiS for Shadow tanks. For those situations where the heal proc relic *isn't* BiS, the use relics are BiS.

 

Of course, one of the things that should be mentioned is that the variation in performance for all of the different relics is quite small: the question of BiS is fuzzy because it varies depending on the fight and, sometimes, even on the relevant phase of the fight (which is one of the advantages of being a Shadow tank because you can Force Cloak to swap relics). Even if the PvP passive Def relic is worse than the heal proc relic for all but 1 fight (which is, ironically, one of the only fights where the use relic is particularly useful), the variation in healing required between them wouldn't be noticeable outside of the combat log parsers that are used nowadays. If the differences are beneath the conscious threshold, it's good enough to outright say that it doesn't make an appreciable difference, and the argument only persists on the basis of ideological preference (like much of tanking).

 

I would say that the biggest error that the OP is making is that spec: Expertise is just *bad*, and Upheaval is *amazing*. 34/0/7 is *way* worse than 31/010. His spec should be fixed so very, very quickly.

I think an interesting question is being raised here and it would take some complicated math (or statistics) to appropriately tackle the question. The passive def relic applies 100% of the time to M/R attacks. Healing proc relic can be considered a form of mitigation only when the tank is below 100% life but that mitigation value is also lost on any over heal being done (including anytime a healer incurs an over heal for the sake of topping off the tank). Part of the problem with those instances of mitigation loss is, they are so dependent upon your group and your healers in particular, it's going to be nearly impossible to accurately model. As with everything modeled, it has it's assumption and inaccuracies and there are those who use the model blindly, know the inaccuracies and accept them and those who try to get the model right and end up going crazy.

I would like to thank all contributors for their opinions and facts they have shared in this thread. I might agree with something said, also disagree with certain points. Nevertheless, it has been an enlighting series of posts which I am grateful for.

 

I wish you all happy gaming

 

 

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for opening this thread. I have valued Kitru's advice and opinions up until he went all diva on me when I disagreed with him. It seems that he has given you a better treatment and I wholeheartedly agree that the healing relic is not as good as Kitru makes it.

 

 

Regards,

 

A fellow shadow tank.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

Healing proc relic can be considered a form of mitigation only when the tank is below 100% life but that mitigation value is also lost on any over heal being done (including anytime a healer incurs an over heal for the sake of topping off the tank).

 

Every defensive stat is wasted when you get overhealed, including the passive defense from an alternate relic. I'm not sure why this is such a popular argument. It's not as though the healing relic causes healers to overheal more than the defense one.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that the healing relic is not as good as Kitru makes it.

 

But how good did Kitru make it seem, really? As near as I can tell, the contention is that the various options are close, but the healing relic comes out slightly ahead in both in theory and practice. A lot of the debate seems to proceed as though Kitru and others said the healing relic isn't just "BiS", but "BiS by a country mile."

As someone new to MMO's I really appreciate this discussion. Could someone pls give some insight as to what actions generate the highest level of threat to keep an enemies attention (besides taunts). It may be a remedial question but it sure be helpful for someone pretty new to this

As someone new to MMO's I really appreciate this discussion. Could someone pls give some insight as to what actions generate the highest level of threat to keep an enemies attention (besides taunts). It may be a remedial question but it sure be helpful for someone pretty new to this

In order it's probably:

Slow time

Project with accelerate project proc

TK throw with 3 stacks of harnessed shadows (one stack is generated with each slow time or project hit)

Force Breach

 

From there everything else is the equivalent of double their damage in threat. Abilities mentioning 'high threat' have a 1.5 threat to damage ratio before factoring in combat technique, i.e. they do 300% threat compared to their damage. For a shadow, this is slow time & force breach.

 

Project has a 1.3 threat to damage ratio, or 260% in stance. Hope that helps!