Since when does a taunt generate threat? The taunt itself does the following:

 

When not being targeted:

Puts you on top of the threat meter and forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds

 

When being targeted:

Forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds

 

If you look at a combat log and see threat gained, it's due to being put on top of the highest threat. Not due to the ability causing the threat.

Taunt has always generated threat (source). Have a random log entry (source):

19:00:19.758 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:00:19.758 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 6218 threat.

I had agro at that moment (note that Dash'roode was hitting me less than a second previous to that instant), but Taunt still gave me a chunk of threat. We see the same thing later on:

19:00:59.083 Tam's Mass Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:00:59.083 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 51130 threat.

You can't tell me that someone was ahead of me on the threat table by 51 thousand.

You are posting a part of your log where I have no frame of reference of what was happening in the fight. If that was you taunting dash off the other tank, of course it would give you that much threat.

I gave you the full log (it's that fancy "source" link). Dash'roode was attacking me just prior to the Mass Mind Control, so clearly I wasn't taunting off the other tank.

I just did a dummy test, and I withdraw my previous statement your taunt does put you ahead of the top threat holder by 10% even if that threat holder is you.

Yeah, it's 10% if you're within 4 meters of the center of the target. The reason I use 30% is that whole "center of the target" qualification. Most bosses have hitboxes which are larger than 4 meters, so you would have to be standing *inside* the boss to fall afoul of the 4 meter radius.

Are you at work or home?

pm'd vent info

Are you at work or home?

 

pm'd vent info

At work right now, and I'm out this evening so I probably won't have time to hop on. I should be free tomorrow evening though. I'd love to continue the conversation, which has obviously entirely derailed this thread. :-)

Taunt has always generated threat (source). Have a random log entry (source):

I'm a little confused now. From that log

19:00:19.758 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:00:19.758 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 6218 threat.

And 15 seconds later

19:00:34.817 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:00:34.817 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 5849 threat.

Why is your second taunt causing less threat gen than the first?

3 consecutive taunts much later in the fight:

19:03:42.853 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:03:42.853 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 1471807 threat.

19:04:41.005 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:04:41.005 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 1084699 threat.

19:05:00.940 Tam's Mind Control adds effect Taunt to Dash'Roode.

19:05:00.941 Tam taunts Dash'Roode, causing 819239 threat.

It looks like you got teleported before that first taunt, so you'd have a bigger threat gap to make up there than you would on supsequent taunts, but why does the amount go down from the second to third?

Edit: Nevermind about that second sequence, it probably went something like

1st taunt: teleported, so making up for the other tank taking the boss for a while

2nd: not in melee range

3rd: in melee range

I still dont understand that first pair, though.

Edit: Nevermind about that second sequence, it probably went something like

1st taunt: teleported, so making up for the other tank taking the boss for a while

2nd: not in melee range

3rd: in melee range

I still dont understand that first pair, though.

I'm not really sure. I may have been in melee range for the second taunt (I know that I wasn't for the first one, since I was still positioning the boss), and I know my DPS were using their agro dumps. Still, the second taunt happened *at least* 15 seconds later. I find it hard to believe that only a negligible amount of threat was built in that time. Perhaps a DPS had exceeded my threat prior to the first taunt and was *about* to pull before I taunted… Dash'roode doesn't have an agro dump mechanic (the tank swap is an "Ignored" debuff, and the boss will go back to the first tank if not taunted).

I did notice that second taunt when I was perusing the log for a good example for the prior forum post. Honestly, I have no idea what was happening there. I'll give it some thought.

Edit: Algebra to the rescue!

In[5]:= Solve[x * 0.3 == 6218 && (x + 6218 + y*15) * 0.1 == 5849, {x, y}]
Out[5]= {{x->20726.7,y->2103.02}}

In other words, if I started with a base threat of 20726 and then had 15 seconds of 2.1k TPS (natural threat generation), that taunt pair is entirely reasonable. I'm fairly certain that's what happened.

Apparently I was just derp-failing my rotation though, because 2.1k natural TPS is unbelievably low. Perhaps my TkT got interrupted…

Fun conversation here. I would like to point out, that when I say 5-6k threat from me when I pull. I do not mean an instant spike to those levels. I mean a sustained for about 30 seconds. I will spike close to the 8-12k range depending on the fight/spec. So yes, I can rip off of a tank initially no matter what just because my burst can outplay the the GCD and threat builds.

Now I am more interested in these numbers below.....They all assume hits and crits......are you serious!? That is not a way to argue a case. That 5.8k threat is easily sustained by me in that time. Factor in miss's and well...............................the abysmal crit rating tanks have (unless you are recommending tanks stack crit ) and your TPS jumps down to around 3kish........maybe. In any event, it is not the tanks fault there.

Another note, factoring in the above, if a tank uses his taunt in the places you recommend it won't be up for when my threat supersedes his. Where it may be a good threat generator if used before strong dps pull it can be detrimental for obvious reasons.

For the purpose of this thread, if the OP's dps are pulling off the tank as much you can only do 3 things:

1) Have the tank learn to generate threat. (Assuming bad tank is bad; however, in some cases they are not capable of generating enough...see above)

2) Have the dps hold back. (Obviously nerfing the dps and their job, not a good option)

3) Have the tank wait for the dps to pull threat, then taunt, then have the dps drop threat afterwards. (Safest option for the OP)

Agro dumping immediately *after* the taunt is definitely ideal. Most DPS (and tanks) miss this subtlety. As for initial TPS…

 

• Pull: 8592 threat
  
• Slow Time: 7k threat
  
• Project: 5k threat
  
• Force Breach: 5k threat
  
• Taunt: 7.65k threat
  
• Double Strike: 3k threat
  
• Shadow Strike: 4k threat
  
• Project crit: 6.5k threat
  
• FP + Telekinetic Throw: 14k threat
  
• AoE Taunt: 18.195k threat
  

 

Total threat: 78845. Total time: 13.5 seconds. TPS = 5840

 

Note that the majority of that 15 second interval is also debuffed such that a DPS *cannot* pull, and if they somehow manage to put off more threat than the tank early on, then the taunt will give even more threat than it otherwise would have (the above chain is a minimum).

 

In other words, I think your tanks are fail, Fenrir. :-) I have absolutely no doubt that you can put up the numbers you listed, but a good tank is going to be able to keep ahead of even that monstrously high burst (and it's *easy mode* if they guard you).

Now I am more interested in these numbers below.....They all assume hits and crits......are you serious!? That is not a way to argue a case. That 5.8k threat is easily sustained by me in that time. Factor in miss's and well...............................the abysmal crit rating tanks have (unless you are recommending tanks stack crit ) and your TPS jumps down to around 3kish........maybe. In any event, it is not the tanks fault there.

I'm not assuming all crits. Hits yes, crits no. I think the numbers may be slightly inflated looking at a log, but not by a lot. The TkT numbers should be almost precisely accurate (remember, the first TkT is 3 ticks that practically auto-crit), and the pull number is very precise. If you want, I can compute extremely precise expected threat values for each ability. I didn't think I needed to go that far though for the purposes of this discussion. The net TPS that I give should be accurate to within about 2-3%.

I'd like to see a combat log where you sustain 5.8k for 30 seconds. That sounds a little extreme. I'm well aware that your spec beats the GCD (as do many specs now), I just find it hard to believe that you could sustain that much threat for that long without getting unaccountably lucky on your crits.

Even if you could though, I still don't think you'd pull. Taunt fluff is multiplicative, which essentially means that as soon as I get to the third taunt, agro is guaranteed (since my TPS jumps to obscenely high levels once I get that final infusion). I did a cheesy Karagga once pre-2.0 where I experimented with taunting exactly on CD. My net TPS over the whole fight was something like 80-100k. I can't get that high right away, but the longer I have, the farther along that exponential curve I can get (and it *is* exponential).

If you want, we can resolve this whole "threat epeen" contest by practical testing. We're in the same faction, so we could just sit on the PTS and pull a few champions on Makeb. We'd have to find something that would live for more than 30 seconds, but that shouldn't be too hard.

 

Edit: Algebra to the rescue!

That makes sense. Thanks for following up!

If you want, we can resolve this whole "threat epeen" contest by practical testing. We're in the same faction, so we could just sit on the PTS and pull a few champions on Makeb. We'd have to find something that would live for more than 30 seconds, but that shouldn't be too hard.

I love that champion, 75% of the time people attack it and die quickly, even groups of players. Seen a sawbones and watchman take it down, but have not seen a tank and anything attack it. Dps only with not even a off-heal is usually just entertaining to watch them die.

I'm not assuming all crits. Hits yes, crits no. I think the numbers may be slightly inflated looking at a log, but not by a lot. The TkT numbers should be almost precisely accurate (remember, the first TkT is 3 ticks that practically auto-crit), and the pull number is very precise. If you want, I can compute extremely precise expected threat values for each ability. I didn't think I needed to go that far though for the purposes of this discussion. The net TPS that I give should be accurate to within about 2-3%.

 

I'd like to see a combat log where you sustain 5.8k for 30 seconds. That sounds a little extreme. I'm well aware that your spec beats the GCD (as do many specs now), I just find it hard to believe that you could sustain that much threat for that long without getting unaccountably lucky on your crits.

 

Even if you could though, I still don't think you'd pull. Taunt fluff is multiplicative, which essentially means that as soon as I get to the third taunt, agro is guaranteed (since my TPS jumps to obscenely high levels once I get that final infusion). I did a cheesy Karagga once pre-2.0 where I experimented with taunting exactly on CD. My net TPS over the whole fight was something like 80-100k. I can't get that high right away, but the longer I have, the farther along that exponential curve I can get (and it *is* exponential).

 

If you want, we can resolve this whole "threat epeen" contest by practical testing. We're in the same faction, so we could just sit on the PTS and pull a few champions on Makeb. We'd have to find something that would live for more than 30 seconds, but that shouldn't be too hard.

I have a shadow and was shocked at the numbers you claimed, so I jumped on mine real quick and ran a few test with rotation and taunt placement here. My gear is mostly 72 with a 66 hilt. I have power augs because I haven't re-augged for 2.0 (144 points). I just picked the last log of the 3 and pulled the baseline numbers from threat.

• Pull: 8592 threat Same, it is baseline with the ability.
  
• Slow Time: 7k threat 3.4k threat with no crit
  
• Project: 5k threat 2.9k threat with no crit.
  
• Force Breach: 5k threat 2.5k threat with no crit
  
• Taunt: 7.65k threat 1739 threat in melee range and 5217 at range.
  
• Double Strike: 3k threat 1k threat without a crit, x2 for the hits for a total of 2k threat.
  
• Shadow Strike: 4k threat 3.3k threat with no crit
  
• Project crit: 6.5k threat Possibly if potency is used. Haven't ran numbers on this.
  
• FP + Telekinetic Throw: 14k threat 2k threat with no crit per tic, x4 tics for 8k threat.
  
• AoE Taunt: 18.195k threat
  

Below I ran the threat numbers using melee vs ranged taunts (Some fights you just can't get at range because the boss follows you). I assumed your project crit number of 6.5k once for the potency and accelerated particles. I also ignored decimals in favor of whole numbers. No sense getting that in depth.

Orange numbers are with the first taunt in melee range. Blue numbers are with the first taunt at range. The melee/range label is corresponding to the second taunt.

Your TPS = 5840

My TPS:

No Crit Melee = 3172

No Crit Ranged = 3748

TkT Crit x4 Melee = 3824

TkT Crit x4 Ranged = 4519

No Crit Melee = 3455

No Crit Ranged = 4083

TkT Crit x4 Melee = 4107

TkT Crit x4 Ranged = 4854

There is a 2k gap in threat between the lowest end and the highest high. We are also assuming that everything hits. If a project or slow time miss...........you loose a LOT.

Ok, lets move into the threat I do. I am pulling a dummy parse from here. Not my best burst or sustained and not the worst. About average. I closed the window to 30 seconds on it.

My TPS = 4320

That means out of the 9 possibilities (mine + yours), only 3 of them will hold threat against me. That means 66% of the time I will have aggro AFTER both taunts are used by the tank (assuming he is not using a taunt after I pull, if his taunt rotation gets lucky and fires during me having threat then we are in to the pull --> taunt --> drop option and not the L2P tank option). The tank must then wait for his single target to come off CD while I am getting the group cleaved and dying.

Ok, let's find out where the pull happens at. There are 4 GDC's before the first taunt; a total of 6 seconds.

At the 6 Second mark the TPS is as follows:

No Crit = 2898 TPS

Crit (Your numbers) = 4265 TPS

Me dpsing = 5952 TPS

Hmmm, I have already pulled somewhere before....Let's assume perfection and throw that taunt in at 5.5 second mark (between GCD's and after lat ability hit).

No Crit Melee = 3188 TPS

No Crit Ranged = 3768 TPS

Crit (Your Numbers) = 5540 TPS

Me dpsing = 5952 TPS

The tank still has not superseded my threat. There is no possibly way he could have held threat. Oh wait, lets put a guard in it all. I believe guards reduce threat by 25%....so my threat comes down to 4464 TPS. This means that I STILL have threat 66% of the time with a guard. But wait, what happens when there is more then 2 dps pulling these numbers? Well, we are right back where we started.

What happens if you don't? Do you pull some time before? Let's find out! Let's do 2 GCD's in (3 seconds):

No Crit = 3997 TPS

Crit (Your Numbers) = 5197 TPS

Me dpsing = 4921 TPS

Me dpsing w/guard = 3684

Here it looks as if I ripped threat in the no crit scenario without a guard, but with on I am good to go. Again, if we have more then 2 dps pushing these numbers, the tank is helpless.

The moral of the story here is that just because a tank looses threat, he is not bad. DPS can and will rip off of a tank in the beginning of a fight. Good tanks are able to save their taunts for when the rip happens and pull the boss back before damage has gone out. After the first 60 seconds of a fight, there should be no aggro loss. After 2.5-3minutes if aggro loss happens, bad tank is bad.

For the OP: Best case scenario for you is to have the tank taunt soon as the dps pulls. Then have the dps drop threat. 45 seconds later have them drop threat again and you should be in the clear.

/E Sorry, got carried up in the numbers. I would have no issues going around with you pulling mobs (gives me something to do in this game, gah soo dissapointed in NiM...but that is another story for another time) but I do think the scenarios above predict what will happen

Such an interesting conversation I had to join in.

Other methods of avoiding pulling threat - and for some this would increase their dps ...

1. Multi-target damage - this doesn't happen often, but in fights like the tanks or Z+T where you can hit two targets and they don't heal back up, you can start your rotation on one, then start again on another basically splitting your TPS. I'm sure my gunslingers would object to this, but I know they love dropping their flyby on multiple targets if they can help it

2. Trading taunts - would work especially well with fights like golden fury (assuming both break those things for the debuff to start) - but pretty much any fight in the game that I can think of.

3. Earlier threat drops - additional sage pulls - guarding after taunts (after they have pulled threat).

Really only the first one actually would effect anyone's DPS.

Since taunts are somewhat exponential - I would be interested in seeing how quickly you can gain threat by trading taunts 5-10 seconds in. Also consider your second tank will be at ranged, so it should build taunt faster. Also consider that your MT can wait a second or so and then he can also taunt from ranged, and the threat builds even faster yet.

The third is kind of a mix of different things and not things I particularly have my raid do. I'm not sure how much sage pulls (rescue) drops threat, but could be interesting if absolutely necessary, however, it would hurt that person's DPS to interrupt their rotation, most likely. Guarding after taunt, basically means you purposely let them steal threat and get way ahead of you, but the exponential taunt threat should then keep the boss on you for a longer period of time after that.

Separately, dropping threat earlier. I really just wanted to bring it up because you say your TPS as a DPS is 5.6k but that assumes you arent dropping threat a single time, I would think, no?

Your TPS = 5840

 

My TPS:

No Crit Melee = 3172

No Crit Ranged = 3748

 

TkT Crit x4 Melee = 3824

TkT Crit x4 Ranged = 4519

 

No Crit Melee = 3455

No Crit Ranged = 4083

 

TkT Crit x4 Melee = 4107

TkT Crit x4 Ranged = 4854

 

 

There is a 2k gap in threat between the lowest end and the highest high. We are also assuming that everything hits. If a project or slow time miss...........you loose a LOT.

 

Ok, lets move into the threat I do. I am pulling a dummy parse from here. Not my best burst or sustained and not the worst. About average. I closed the window to 30 seconds on it.

 

My TPS = 4320

In order to hold threat against 4320 TPS, a tank only needs to hit the target first and then sustain at least 3323 TPS. This is because the agro rip happens at 130% of current target's threat. The only one of your scenarios which fall under that threshold is the no-crit melee, which isn't realistic because tanks are practically always at range from the boss (see my earlier discussion about how the game defines "range" for the purpose of threat). Small humanoid bosses (e.g. second phase Styrak) might be a problem, but most bosses do not fall into this category.

As for the threat numbers, pulling *averages* from a recent Dread Guard run (and adjusting for Upheaval):

• Slow Time: 3858.76
  
• Project: 7140.35
  
• Force Breach: 2097.66
  
• Double Strike: 2810
  
• Shadow Strike: 2950.7
  
• Telekinetic Throw (with FP): 14240
  
• Telekinetic Throw (average): 10504
  

I have a 69 hilt and a 72 off-hand. All of my mods are 72s, with three or four B variant mods (low willpower). I'm using the crafted ears and implants (very low willpower). Absorb/Shield augments.

Thus, my threat scenario over 30 seconds with precise numbers: 8592 + 3858.76 + 7140.35 + 2097.66 + (6506.631) + 2810 + 2950.7 + 7140.35 + 14240 + (16600.94) + 2810 + 2810 + 7140.35 + 3858.76 + (26566.95) + 2950.7 + 2810 + 7140.35 + 10504 + 3858.76 + 2810 = 145197.261

5328.70 TPS (after 13.5 seconds)

4839.9087 TPS (after 30 seconds)

That's a realistic set of numbers drawn from a practical combat log. Remember, I only need to keep ahead of you by 30%. Which is to say, I can keep threat off of you in the first 13.5 seconds if you're pulling a DPS of 6927.31 (average, not instant spike), and 6291.88131 in the first 30 seconds (again, average). Now, if you're pulling anywhere near 6.2k DPS over 30 seconds, I would expect you to have some fairly significant spikes (yay, Scatter Bombs). That's what the taunt is for. Depending on exactly *where* in time you hit your burst, I might adjust my taunt timing to ensure the target is debuffed when you hit that burst, so you don't momentarily exceed the 130% threshold. (e.g. I might move the AoE taunt up ahead of the TkT if you hit your burst *during* the channel)

Note that if you're guarded, it's insanely easy-mode: 9236.41 DPS over 13.5 seconds, or 8389.18 DPS over 30 seconds. I really, really don't think those are achievable thresholds given current gear levels, regardless of spec or skill.

The moral of the story here is that just because a tank looses threat, he is not bad. DPS can and will rip off of a tank in the beginning of a fight. Good tanks are able to save their taunts for when the rip happens and pull the boss back before damage has gone out. After the first 60 seconds of a fight, there should be no aggro loss. After 2.5-3minutes if aggro loss happens, bad tank is bad.

I really don't agree. There was a time where this was true (before tank threat got buffed from 150% to 200%). In the current game, barring any positioning/mechanical shenanigans or horrendous under-gearing, I just don't see any excuse for a tank to lose agro, even for a moment. Believe me, I would love for that excuse to be there! It makes my life easier if I'm not expected to hold the boss with 100% reliability, but I just don't see it.

/E Sorry, got carried up in the numbers. I would have no issues going around with you pulling mobs (gives me something to do in this game, gah soo dissapointed in NiM...but that is another story for another time) but I do think the scenarios above predict what will happen

:-) Yeah, NiM TfB is unfortunate. It needs to be buffed. A lot. With flowers.

I'll be on the PTS tomorrow (though not as "Tam", since someone snagged that name before I could), and probably dropping by your Vent as well. We can shoot the breeze with Makeb champions if you like. I always enjoy a challenge.

Such an interesting conversation I had to join in.

 

Other methods of avoiding pulling threat - and for some this would increase their dps ...

 

1. Multi-target damage - this doesn't happen often, but in fights like the tanks or Z+T where you can hit two targets and they don't heal back up, you can start your rotation on one, then start again on another basically splitting your TPS. I'm sure my gunslingers would object to this, but I know they love dropping their flyby on multiple targets if they can help it

2. Trading taunts - would work especially well with fights like golden fury (assuming both break those things for the debuff to start) - but pretty much any fight in the game that I can think of.

3. Earlier threat drops - additional sage pulls - guarding after taunts (after they have pulled threat).

 

Really only the first one actually would effect anyone's DPS.

 

Since taunts are somewhat exponential - I would be interested in seeing how quickly you can gain threat by trading taunts 5-10 seconds in. Also consider your second tank will be at ranged, so it should build taunt faster. Also consider that your MT can wait a second or so and then he can also taunt from ranged, and the threat builds even faster yet.

 

The third is kind of a mix of different things and not things I particularly have my raid do. I'm not sure how much sage pulls (rescue) drops threat, but could be interesting if absolutely necessary, however, it would hurt that person's DPS to interrupt their rotation, most likely. Guarding after taunt, basically means you purposely let them steal threat and get way ahead of you, but the exponential taunt threat should then keep the boss on you for a longer period of time after that.

 

Separately, dropping threat earlier. I really just wanted to bring it up because you say your TPS as a DPS is 5.6k but that assumes you arent dropping threat a single time, I would think, no?

If you have a Guardian he could also use Guardian Leap (Not sure on the % but it lowers by a moderate amount). There are many ways to adjust threat, you would also need to account for heals. Watchmen Sents, Gunslingers and I "think" one spec of Scoundrel can passively heal will add to total threat.

If you want to know about how quickly threat can be generated throw taunting off of each tank, check a Terror log from TFB of a tank. In the last phase they have to keep taunts on boss, so that would give a nice sampling of threat generation.

As far as your last statement, I am assuming a static situation with no guards, drops or outside interference. I am not 100% sure the amount of % each class's aggro dump reduces threat by, so it is difficult for me to put that in. I can say that in the cases I made above, the threat drop would have to be more then 25% if it was to do any real difference within the beginning of a fight (Remember, threat is pull was shown in the 3, 6 and 13.5 second windows. Now that I am looking at it, my threat for me was based off of a 30 second sampling vs 13.5. The data is wrong, but does not change the point since my threat gets lower the longer the fight persists.)

We could probably sit here all day modeling threat in relation to:

Specs

Taunt Trading

Taunt Distance

Rescue's

Guardian Leaps

Class Aggro drops (If I remember sentinel's is/used to be 100%)

Combat Stealth

Guard's

Guard Switching

DPS pulling

Relic/Adrenal/Inspiration usage times and how much threat each buff generates in a "normal" rotation.

The possibilities are.....................huge. I think the key thing to remember is that there are a great many tools given to address threat. We need to understand how it functions to use the proper tool.

The possibilities are.....................huge. I think the key thing to remember is that there are a great many tools given to address threat. We need to understand how it functions to use the proper tool.

Agreed.

My point was merely that there are indeed many other tools you can use to lower threat - so both of your portrayals of stealing threat off the tank is not taking into consideration all the tools at your disposal to prevent that situation.

All of our guilds (Tam's, severity, carnage, among many others) are very good and very practiced on how to handle these situations. We probably all have raid leaders who know who the top DPS are and handle their threat in different ways. Carnage also has two very good gunslingers, we obviously always guard them when needed, and we typically use the taunt then drop threat method - they never seem to pull unless we are careless. Even if that weren't enough, if we truly had to push the limits of DPS at the start of the fight, we could use one of those other methods to reduce their threat.

Actually - you could also utilize DPS taunts too to build threat if you are vocal about calling out taunt timing. Imagine 5 taunts to build threat at the beginning (not that many people roll with 3 guardian DPS, just saying)

As far as your last statement, I am assuming a static situation with no guards, drops or outside interference. I am not 100% sure the amount of % each class's aggro dump reduces threat by, so it is difficult for me to put that in.

Surrender, Cloud Mind, Diversion and Force Camouflage are exactly a 25% reduction (instantly). Rescue and Guardian Leap are the same. Combat stealth drops agro by 100% (odd that Force Camo doesn't), which means that Scoundrels have the best agro drops in the game by a pretty wide margin.

A 25% reduction is pretty significant when paired with the taunt. It gives the tank a lead of *at least* 55%, which can be pretty significant depending on when exactly the pull happens.

The possibilities are.....................huge. I think the key thing to remember is that there are a great many tools given to address threat. We need to understand how it functions to use the proper tool.

+1 I think discussions like this are really good to have, if only because it allows to explore the solution space. People need to understand the tools that are out there and how we can employ them to solve these problems. Even if we don't agree as to the best approach (my "optimistic" always-hold-agro-all-the-time, or your "pessimistic" save-taunt-for-swap).

At least we agree that asking the DPS to hold back is *not* the right answer. :-)

Something that's kinda bugging me. Why the difference in aggro pulling only on hms? Doesn't make sense. It's not easier to tank bosses in sm so what are you're dps doing different?

We still pull agro in story mode but its not a problem at all because the bosses don't hit hard enough to flatten us in that short time.

Snip

You give that 130% number which is misleading. That is if I am standing at range. If I move within 4 meters it goes to 110%. In every situation tanks can not stand greater then 4 meters from the boss. What happens when you throw in a mdps spiking as high (Combat, Infiltration)? Dread Guards, Kephess, Dash'roode, Thrasher, Warlords and Styrak (6/12) fights you will not be able to generate that extra threat from standing out. In the other 6, what happens if a Guardian is the tank of choice?

Yes, there are cases where I wouldn't be able to pull. But there are equally as many where I would and you would be in trouble. On top of that, throw in a miss on one or two of your initial abilities. What happens then? The whole model is destroyed since the dps is hitting 100% of the time (or 99.51% in my case). What I am saying is where you may be right in some cases, you can not be relied upon. The dps can be. The dps can also get lucky and crit on their opener and nothing you can do with crits will stop the pull. It points out the unreliability of your point.

You mentioned yourself that you would hold back on the taunt positioning or adjust to to accommodate the dps.

Depending on exactly *where* in time you hit your burst, I might adjust my taunt timing to ensure the target is debuffed when you hit that burst, so you don't momentarily exceed the 130% threshold.

This points to the original Pull --> Taunt --> Drop scenario I mentioned before. You did it this way because if you had not you would have been labeled a bad tank by your standards . Making you a good tank for anticipating. I will add here, I have pulled threat "through" a taunt before. It went down like this: Pulled Threat --> Boss was taunted --> Lost aggro --> Unloaded a crap ton more --> 6 seconds later I had threat. I made Thin's life miserable on the first few tentacles because I could. After that he threw in the second taunt and guards. My point here is that without the dps and tank working together to manage the threat, the tank can and will loose it. Timing the taunt with the dps pull is really the key.

I made Thin's life miserable on the first few tentacles because I could.

I had to comment on this one line because I giggled. This is the one fight in the game where I make all the DPS hold for 5-8 seconds. Probably won't be a viable method in NiM, but it is such a PITA how often the DPS steal threat on the tentacles because they all have to stand in melee range. Not to mention there are two tentacles, so trading taunts doesn't work either.

You give that 130% number which is misleading. That is if I am standing at range. If I move within 4 meters it goes to 110%. In every situation tanks can not stand greater then 4 meters from the boss. What happens when you throw in a mdps spiking as high (Combat, Infiltration)? Dread Guards, Kephess, Dash'roode, Thrasher, Warlords and Styrak (6/12) fights you will not be able to generate that extra threat from standing out. In the other 6, what happens if a Guardian is the tank of choice?

Unless you roll through the *center* of the boss, you're not going to trip the melee threshold. Melee vs range for purposes of threat is measured as a 4 meter radius from the exact center of the boss. This is why humanoid bosses are the hardest to hold. If you're talking about something like Thrasher, your camera would have to be entirely obscured to actually be in "melee" range. Not even a melee DPS would be doing something like that.

Yes, there are cases where I wouldn't be able to pull. But there are equally as many where I would and you would be in trouble. On top of that, throw in a miss on one or two of your initial abilities. What happens then? The whole model is destroyed since the dps is hitting 100% of the time (or 99.51% in my case). What I am saying is where you may be right in some cases, you can not be relied upon. The dps can be. The dps can also get lucky and crit on their opener and nothing you can do with crits will stop the pull. It points out the unreliability of your point.

Missing sucks. It doesn't happen very often, but it certainly brings tears when it does.

This points to the original Pull --> Taunt --> Drop scenario I mentioned before.

Not quite. I position my taunt just *before* the DPS hits their max burst, so that they burst over me during the debuff and I have 6 seconds to catch back up again. I would only result to Pull > Taunt > Drop if I absolutely couldn't ever hold threat off of a particular DPS, which as my scenario indicates, should never be a *consistent* problem.

You did it this way because if you had not you would have been labeled a bad tank by your standards

:-)

Making you a good tank for anticipating. I will add here, I have pulled threat "through" a taunt before. It went down like this: Pulled Threat --> Boss was taunted --> Lost aggro --> Unloaded a crap ton more --> 6 seconds later I had threat. I made Thin's life miserable on the first few tentacles because I could. After that he threw in the second taunt and guards. My point here is that without the dps and tank working together to manage the threat, the tank can and will loose it. Timing the taunt with the dps pull is really the key.

Yeah, I've lost agro during a taunt debuff as well. Well, lost my top threat position. Hasn't happened since 2.0 (since the tank single-target threat buffs were utterly disgusting), but before 2.0… I actually had my Focus sentinel pull agro three times on the same tentacle, once *immediately* following a taunt. Granted, we were playing cutsy tricks with agro and not guarding her, simply because we wanted to see if she could pull. (answer: yes!) I'm pretty sure that wouldn't happen post-2.0 without miss/crit issues, but it certainly has happened to me in the past.

DPS cooperating with the tanks to manage agro is obviously ideal. I try to really good about this when I'm on my Combat sentinel. As ego-boosting as it can be to rip agro twice on the same boss, it's really best not to.

Agreed.

 

My point was merely that there are indeed many other tools you can use to lower threat - so both of your portrayals of stealing threat off the tank is not taking into consideration all the tools at your disposal to prevent that situation.

I do agree. However, I use those models because they are there 100% of the time. The others may or may not depending on group comp.

 

Actually - you could also utilize DPS taunts too to build threat if you are vocal about calling out taunt timing. Imagine 5 taunts to build threat at the beginning (not that many people roll with 3 guardian DPS, just saying)

That is because 2 light sabers are better then 1, therefor 1 sentinel equlas 2 guardians . Also, 1 lightsaber can block 1 blaster pistol, but 1 lightsaber can NOT block 2 blaster pistols because 2 > 1

Surrender, Cloud Mind, Diversion and Force Camouflage are exactly a 25% reduction (instantly). Rescue and Guardian Leap are the same. Combat stealth drops agro by 100% (odd that Force Camo doesn't), which means that Scoundrels have the best agro drops in the game by a pretty wide margin.

I seem to recalls some bugs regarding the dumps a long while ago. Have we done any tests to see if they were fixed or if these numbers are actual? You also can't forget those pesky Shadows in the combat drop catagory, I mean they still think they can dps silly guys. I do think scoundrels have the best aggro drop in game, but that is not due to the combat stealth only. They also have a regular aggro drop. So they should never have threat! Muwahahahahaah!

I do recall some inconsistencies in my threat logs as a sentinel. Yep found it. Here is a log from NiM EC Progression stuff. I actually have a -9,000,000 threat at one point. I also finish with a -22959.58 TPS.

A 25% reduction is pretty significant when paired with the taunt. It gives the tank a lead of *at least* 55%, which can be pretty significant depending on when exactly the pull happens.

I agree 100% This is why the "Pull --> Taunt --> Drop Threat" is the *best* way. Or rather most reliable way.

At least we agree that asking the DPS to hold back is *not* the right answer. :-)

Here, here! Gotta break those dps records and stand in the red to do so!

Here, here! Gotta break those dps records and stand in the red to do so!

Protip: you get bigger crits if you LoS your healers.