If this would happen on an american server yes then it would be fair that elementary grammar is "required". On an european server however where english is not a main language for most people and not all had an english education it's a total different matter.

I see loads of people struggle with english on the european servers but at least they take an effort in writing it where loads of other players plain simple don't even bother. I prefer engrish (yes engrish, not a typo) over *insert random other language*.

The OP makes a number of assumptions in constructing his argument, to wit:

1. Schools today still teach and enforce proper English. Anyone currently in school is therefore in the habit of using correct grammar and spelling, and must make a conscious effort to break the habit in order to talk 2 ohter peeps liek this lol.

Sadly, I've seen papers and assignments from current students that were shocking in their lack of some of the principles of basic English. Those students still passed with flying colors. It might have something to do with many of the teachers nowadays having a similar inability to spell or write well. One of my very good friends still has occasional trouble distinguishing between "its" and "it's." Why? Because his teacher taught him the rule incorrectly. Aside from that, he's an amazing writer, despite having no formal higher education.

The OP mentions "common practice" of good grammar as though it's something that's still common these days; I'm not so sure it is. Even in professional or academic environments, there's a large number of people who don't understand or utilize many of the simple rules I was taught in elementary school. I've found myself having to double-check my writing on more than one occasion, simply because I've seen contractions like "you're" spelled wrong more often recently than I've seen them spelled correctly.

2. People older than 30 did not grow up around computers, and therefore were never expected to learn how to type.

I was born in the early 70s (Git off mah lawn!) and have had a computer in the home since I was 10 years old. (I remember playing Ultima III with a friend when it first came out. Yes, that's a 3. I also remember Infocom games with fondness.) By the time I hit high school, all long papers and assignments were expected to be typed. If a student did not have a computer, she used a (gasp!) typewriter. By my college years, everyone was expected to have some degree of computer and keyboarding proficiency; this was also the era of MUDs. And I'm a decade (give or take a couple of years) over the OP's cutoff age.

3. At least some posters exhibiting poor grammar or spelling do so because English is not their native language.

At least in my experience, while ESL posters do make certain errors, they're rarely the same kind of errors that native speakers of English tend to make. Aside from these one or two minor slip-ups, they're often more careful to write well and clearly, because they're aware that they can't necessarily take people's understanding them for granted. While I understand the OP's point here (it's not reasonable to expect perfection from someone with limited fluency), I'd argue that it's not always accurate to lump the majority of non-native speakers of English into the category of people who do "not use proper grammar, punctuation, or capitalization at a basic level," especially when many of them surpass the thoroughly mediocre (if not downright horrendous) level of basic English literacy we see from many native speakers today.

In short, I think the original hypothesis has some flaws. I don't see a lot of distinction being made between the ability to use proper English and the willingness to do so. The OP seems to assume that most people in his target age bracket can write well if they try, but they just can't be bothered most of the time. I have to wonder for what proportion of the Internet community this actually holds true.

I prefer engrish (yes engrish, not a typo) over *insert random other language*.

I actually prefer "Nengels"

Some sensible ideas put forward there.

As someone who realises just how important spelling and grammar are in an entirely-written medium, I cannot help but judge people by the effort (or lack thereof) that they put into typing.

English is a pain of a language, but when you don't use it properly, it just shows you in a bad light, whether or not you care about it or think so. To expect people not to judge you for this or not to cringe at the common errors is like asking humans not to make first impressions based on spoken language or appearance.

Getting to know people better can push past first impressions, but most meetings in-game are fleeting or temporary, so it'd be best to leave people with a good impression of you.

Many players will never care about this, but don't be surprised if you get judged accordingly for the inability to express your ideas clearly in written form.

You know what i think is very funny? How would someone from England react to this post? The simple fact that seems to escape the OP is that HE DOESN'T SPEAK/WRITE PROPER ENGLISH!!! You are an American, you use US English that is a bastardized form of english and yet you make a big a** post profiling the men and women who can't/won't use "proper" english.

To paraphrase a proper english user : Methinks the OP doth protest too much!

I have put up with a lot of things on this forum but this is pushing it way to far.

You LEAVE MY GRAMMAR OUT OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She does not even play SWTOR .... Hell.... She does not even have a Computer! She is a very nice Old Gal and bakes me tasty cookies and NONE of your damn business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha!!! Excellent

OT: Personally, I understand where the OP is coming from. Sometimes you see something in chat and wonder if the person typing it speaks English, and have to spend ages working out what they said.

So far as my typing goes, if I am on the forums, I will usually try to put everything together using proper grammar, punctuation, capital letters, and so on. In game, more for speed than anything else, I tend not to capitalize, unless I am typing someone's name, and more often than not instead of hitting '.' at the end of a sentence, I hit 'Enter'. I still use correct grammar if using abbreviations though since it can get confusing for others if you don't, especially for non-native English speakers. For example 'We'll go and do X' means one thing, and 'Well go and do X' means something else - doubly confusing if you are a guild master and your guild are used to you asking them to do stuff.

Oh, and I'm 32, and have lived in England my entire life.

You know what i think is very funny? How would someone from England react to this post? The simple fact that seems to escape the OP is that HE DOESN'T SPEAK/WRITE PROPER ENGLISH!!! You are an American, you use US English that is a bastardized form of english and yet you make a big a** post profiling the men and women who can't/won't use "proper" english.

 

To paraphrase a proper english user : Methinks the OP doth protest too much!

As someone from England, I am glad to see one of our Amercan cousins trying to better themselves by learning how to use their mother tongue correctly

And being fair, he does use proper English, it's just the American dialect of it. You get the same no matter where you go. There are words used in my local city, Newcastle, that would confuse the hell out of someone who lived in London, and vice versa. It's not a different language, just a different dialect.

Edit: Going back and reading some of these posts in the first few pages alone makes me wonder about the community as a whole. A guy comes along and puts together a thread to have an interesting discussion, and all you guys do is come along and flame him. Why? If you have nothing constructive to add to the discussion, don't bother. It really is that simple.

Haha!!! Excellent

 

As someone from England, I am glad to see one of our Amercan cousins trying to better themselves by learning how to use their mother tongue correctly

 

And being fair, he does use proper English, it's just the American dialect of it. You get the same no matter where you go. There are words used in my local city, Newcastle, that would confuse the hell out of someone who lived in London, and vice versa. It's not a different language, just a different dialect.

I understand completely. But the fact of the matter is that a language, especially the english language, is evolving (or you as an english man could argue, evolving by devolving) at the exact pace as the information transfer. English has become, for all intents and purposes, the international language. So in order to become accessible to all, it is dumbed down to a common denominator. The idea transmitted is more important than the form in which it is being transmitted, as long as it is intelligible. Of course, i am referring strictly to texting and internet related issues.

Disclaimer: On official documents, mass media etc, the use of proper english and the proper grammar should be mandatory.

I understand completely. But the fact of the matter is that a language, especially the english language, is evolving (or you as an english man could argue, evolving by devolving) at the exact pace as the information transfer. English has become, for all intents and purposes, the international language. So in order to become accessible to all, it is dumbed down to a common denominator. The idea transmitted is more important than the form in which it is being transmitted, as long as it is intelligible. Of course, i am referring strictly to texting and internet related issues.

 

Disclaimer: On official documents, mass media etc, the use of proper english and the proper grammar should be mandatory.

Agreed!

And if everyone would write proper Engish and proper grammar all the time, we'd have to miss out on precious gems like the famous Sword in a box:

"can you make sword in box light sword so sword come out when opened? then if sword is back after sword, use light saber on box, and saber will be boxed after sword is out. " (courtesy of battlebug).

I don't remember where or when I read this anymore, but I believe I read the average age of the SWTOR player is something like 28 or 32 years old! xD

Also, not sure if it's been said before as I didn't feel like reading through 11 pages of replies, but I think the type of server one plays on determines a lot as well. For example, I play on Trask Ulgo which is a European RP server. Generally the 'leet speak' is less present in all chats on there. I was happily surprised I had to spend less time decrypting chat on SWTOR then I had in my last MMO Aion! xD

The *ahum* problem I have when typing, is that I am terribly lazy. I can't really type blindfolded, which means I am looking at my keyboard half the time, and I also don't check if I've made any typo's before hitting the enter key. Combine this with an inborn ability to effortlessly (but mostly sub-consciously) fuse two possible ways of saying something into one sentence and needless to say, I've had my fair share of funny typo's. A good example was when I introduced myself to my gf's family for the first time as "Hi, I am her girlfriend! ... *facepalms* dammit... >.<". You can imagine what a good first impression I made that day. Luckily for me her parents like to crack jokes so they could laugh about it a lot back then. Sadly they will probably laugh about it for the rest of my life though. The sentences I "fused" btw were "Hi, I am her boyfriend" and "Hi, she's my girlfriend".

p.s. In case you (the OP) are interested, I am from the Netherlands.

p.p.s And no, I don't mind leet speak or lack of proper grammar and punctuation. Often I can have some laughs together with the people involved about it. Although...It may become a tad annoying when they use excessive amounts of abbreviation while in high-pressure situations like a warzone and I have to spend a lot of time figuring out what the heck someone said.

Combine this with an inborn ability to effortlessly (but mostly sub-consciously) fuse two possible ways of saying something into one sentence and needless to say, I've had my fair share of funny typo's. A good example was when I introduced myself to my gf's family for the first time as "Hi, I am her girlfriend! ... *facepalms* dammit... >.<". You can imagine what a good first impression I made that day. Luckily for me her parents like to crack jokes so they could laugh about it a lot back then. Sadly they will probably laugh about it for the rest of my life though. The sentences I "fused" btw were "Hi, I am her boyfriend" and "Hi, she's my girlfriend".

I did something like this too, at my sister's engagement party. I met her husband-to-be's parents for the first time and introduced myself as my sister's sister, fusing together 'Hi, I am X's brother' with 'Hi, X is my sister'.

It amazes me how many people insulted the OP about his post. Then chided him for being defensive.

A number of people acted like the OP offended them or a family member. There's a fine line between short hand and lazy. Particularly in a real life conversation and the person you're talking to says something like OMG. The leet speak on the net is moving over into real time verbal communication. When I hear someone talk in that manner my first thought is they simply aren't that bright.

Talk anyway you like in game as long as it's not offensive in terms of word choices. I don't care. That's your decision and it's all about freedom right? I may not take you seriously but you have a right to communicate any way you wish.

As for the people flaming the OP with sarcastic shots about where the OP will work and coffee shops and the like. All I read was "leave me alone and let me be ignorant cause I want to be lazy and carefree on the net." I personally think he shouldn't have even bothered posting. Most people react rather badly to anything that upsets their "Net" practices. This thread has pretty much proven that.

Dear Polyneux (original poster):

I too am a card carrying member of the grammar Nazi party. It pains me to no end to see my beloved language, the language of Mark Twain, the language of Nathaniel Hawthorne, the language of Herman Melville abused in such a seemingly malicious fashion.

However, my friend, I have found, through many years of life that some battles simply cannot be won. Fighting grammatical errors on the internet is on one of those battles. Some of the worst linguistic criminals that you will meet online wear their ignorance of language as badge of honor, proud that they have no command over the basic human tool that makes life in our modern times possible.

The only advice I can give you is to feel proud that you are one of the few in these times that have decided to master this, all too important tool of the human spirit. Savor the beauty, the passion, the promise that our language grants us.

So I want to discuss something. And it might turn into a flame war but know that is not my intention.

 

I also want to begin this by saying I am not a Grammar Nazi. What the scope of this post is covering is simple things like capitalization of first letters in sentences, punctuation, etc. I'm a senior in college and I still have to consult a manual sometimes if I want to go crazy in a paper and add a colon.

 

Go!

I stopped reading at "What the scope of this post is covering IS simple things"

If you want to lecture, write, and spam a huge paragraph stating the neural transgressions of the grammatical state in which online users speak, have the deceny to review yourself before talking. YOU made 2 grammar mistakes in your very first sentence

"ARE" simple things, THINGS is plural, if you want to be anal, ill let you know that if you wanted to use "is" you would have to re-word that sentence to; What the scope of this post is covering is a simple thing such as capitalization

Furthermore, you dont start a new sentence with AND

You are a senior at what college? you're not even a philosopher, you are a poser and lack the intellect for real perceptive conversation lol, Now I dont give a flying rats *** about people's grammar on the internet, but I cant stand individuals who operate on hypocracy. Its as if a murderer decided to lecture a child who just accidentally took a life by stepping on an ant along his walk path.

Now if you really are interested about going beyond the limit of human thought, I suggest you look towards yourself before outwards at the horizon. If you cant even conquer your own existence, why are you questioning anything in your life retrospectively?

The demons in your head becomes your own ordained self and what is said, Leave the second of the minute behind and count towards the next second in mind. Bridge the moment and seize the day, dont let the ego have your say

(b). They are older than 30. And grew up not really being expected to type or process words. They might hold a job where they are not expected to do so either. Someone who is 30 was born in 1982, and was 18 in the year 2000. School computing was definitely not as developed, and University computing was only a few steps ahead. Computing was also still relatively expensive.

This makes me feel old... and since I am 30, I would like to chime in. I was born in 1982, and graduated in 2000, yes. My first computer was an Apple IIGS, in 1985 (3 years old). The first PC I owned was a Pentium 133, when I was 10. I built that one with my father. I built MY first PC when I was 15. It was an AMD 433 MHz, if I recall correctly. Or maybe it was an 800. I can't really remember 15 years ago.

I was expected to complete "Introduction to Keyboarding" in order to graduate High School. I wanted to test out, and they said no. I finished ALL the coursework for the semester in the first week. I have an adjusted WPM of around 80-100. Most of the time, if the computer I am on is slow, I end up typing faster than the computer can keep up with. (Missed strokes, etc.)

(d). They are not College educated. They could be 18-24 and never went to college, working your basic minimum wage job. This person is not really -asked- to use good typing skills in there everyday environment.

their

Had to, sorry.

But as far as the topic at hand, it is a yes and no. When the people use text talk, then most definately yes. I cannot STAND people who use "ur" "U" or any other shorthand other than "lol" "rofl" etc. I have an even greater disdain for people that use "there" for EVERYTHING, no matter its context. However, this is purely an OCD thing, as I have to make sure that I type most everything correctly, and missed strokes on a computer make me angry, as I spend most of the time backspacing to correct what the computer didn't catch. (I say this because as I write this, I am at work, on a dinosaur of a computer, and every third word has a missed letter because I am typing too fast.)

That's the yes... the no part? Sometimes English isn't a person's first language, and I can understand that typing in English isn't that easy for someone who doesn't use it ALL THE TIME. I murder German just as much. Don't hate me for it.

What the scope of this post is covering is a simple thing, such as capitalization.

Fixed for you. You forgot the comma and period in your own critique. lol

Fixed for you. You forgot the comma and period in your own critique. lol

He forgot multiple periods, in fact

I have to say, I took a little bit of offence at the "being over 30" section in the original post. Amazingly enough, and as other posters have pointed out, before computers there were these things called typewriters. If you made a mistake using one of them, it was either try and use one of those awful tippex strips to overtype your error, or else you had to start all over again from the beginning..... Not just use backspace, but start all over again. The same was true when you had to hand write your homework. So personally, being able to use backspace is an amazing treat. I also have had a computer in the home since I was 9 or 10, a good old rubbery ZX Spectrum. I grew up on text based games, such as The Hobbit or the original Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Game, where you would be told off by the game for not using a verb correctly. So don't patronise us over 30's with the whole not used to using computers argument.

I have an A in A Level English, and incorrect grammar can annoy me, particularly when "should of" is used rather than "should have". However, I have some very good friends who make that make that mistake, and I don't decide to ignore anything else they say because of that lack of grammatical knowledge. But as with all things, grammatical errors must be taken in context. If the errors are in an important document at work, then yes, I tend to get grumpy about it, and if the document in question is going out from my department, then I will correct them before sending them out. However, if it is an informal email from a friend, then I don't care whether capitals are used in the correct place, or if semi-colons are used rather than commas. It doesn't bother me because it just doesn't matter in that context, and I don't tend to use formal grammar either. Hence I don't get bothered by lack of capitals being used in in-game chat; people are often typing in between mobs and just don't have the time to go back and change any mistakes.

I am bothered by what people say, rather than how they say it (although I have to admit that I am slightly amused by the incorrect use of commas in some of the "grammar nazi" posts)

I am quite accepting of people who make the occasional grammatical/spelling error due to rushed typing or lack of sleep. However, repeated spelling mistakes tend to convince me that the person typing is of less than average intelligence.

Or not a native English speaker?

75% of the people complaining about other people their grammar and spelling don't speak a second language at all..

75% of the people who make grammar and spelling mistakes are typing English as a second language..

ur agrumant is unvalyd

Or not a native English speaker?

75% of the people complaining about other people their grammar and spelling don't speak a second language at all..

75% of the people who make grammar and spelling mistakes are typing English as a second language..

 

ur agrumant is unvalyd

People with English as a second language, make less grammar and spelling mistakes than native English speakers. So unfortunalely, YOUR argument is invalid.

Okay.....just thought I'd respond to some things

For the record in my OP the standard I had set was basic capitalization and punctuation. Yes it is more construction and syntax but frequently in arguments it all gets lumped into "grammar."

First,

I asked a question;

'Do you judge people who use poor grammar as lesser?" Or something to that effect.

I know that 90% of the people reading this will not answer honestly. I know this because in the top five posts in GD at the time of writing this, there was at least one comment about how "you have the grammar of a 6 year old thus your argument does not matter". I thought I would try it anyway.

Secondly, I made up a list of POSSIBILITIES as to why someone might not habitually use the habits of typing I mentioned. I never said it was finite, I never said it was exact. In fact I said it was a "hypothesis" which means that I expect to be proven wrong. I expect to be told about how you are a business owner or a computer science major, and are too "lazy" or don't care. This was what I asked for. What I also asked was "Why?" which some of you responded to as well.

My basic point is: If you are in a habit of doing an activity that is massively based on habit (typing, riding a bike), why would you do it in a completely different way for a few hours out of your day?

I supposed either you're not in the habit, or your habits are not as strong as say, someone who writes professionally every day.

You told me about ties, and about calling your boss Mr. etc. all of which I accept as legitimate examples. Those are hardly as habitual as typing, however.

I gave a little of my life story and background on the problem so that you would know that I earnestly think on the subject, and I'm not just trying to start a war.

I'm accused of being "defensive" though I felt like I was simply responding to comments. Everyone on the internet expects to get the last word, so because I continue the discussion I am being "defensive" and not accepting what is being said?

I'm aware of the various influences that people have on their typing. Never did I say that if you type poorly then you are stupid, foreign, etc. and if I did it was my intention to avoid that from the beginning so I apologize.

You're all so quick to notice errors that I have made in my Grammar, and quote sentences for Grammar without actually reading what the sentence says..... "simple things like capitalization of first letters in sentences, punctuation, etc." In fact in the first three lines I say that I am NOT a "Grammar Nazi", a point I repeat later, and I always come from a position of knowing that I can make mistakes. I do not correct people on an everyday basis, and I have not corrected any posts here.

I also said in a response that my post came off the heels of a city, general chat argument. Not in PVP, not in fighting. Just normal "trade" chat where everyone is sitting there, thinking out their responses.

I made my original post too long and convoluted. I anticipated since this was a forum and not the game that someone who took the time to click would take the time to read. Thus a perfect "audience" for my idea. Maybe I titled it wrong. Maybe I took the wrong approach. 80% of you turned the argument into something that was not what I intended and that's my fault.

People with English as a second language, make less grammar and spelling mistakes than native English speakers. So unfortunalely, YOUR argument is invalid.

Disagree.

Most non native English speakers are limited in their vocabulary and limited to expressing themselves only in specific subject (this case, MMO's)

I've had numerous conversations with people, both in a chat or on a speech channel where simple day to day subjects like explaining what job they do becomes more complicated for them (even i have this problem).

A Belgian and a Finish person trying to compare the difference in house constructions and methods was complicated enough, we actually linked each other pictures to make the it more clear.

Lets also not forget, people who write in a second language usually have their web browser spell check set to that language to avoid most spelling errors or use google when they are unsure of certain words.

While most of the native English speakers are Americans who barely know how to turn off the 10 toolbars on their IE.

Either way, the point I was trying to make was that just because a person cannot spell the English language correctly does not make him dumb if its a second language.

While most of the native English speakers don't know a second language at all.

So i ask the person i originally quoted, who is the dumbest person then?

The one who only speaks his own language or the one that tries to learn a second one?