Gamasutra posted a video of David Gaider's talk on sex and sexuality in video games http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/194571/Video_Sexism_and_sexuality_in_games.php

 

Interesting watch. Like how he quoted some of the same numbers I've said and gotten bashed for, and said some of the same things I've said.

 

Varied responses? Check! We see it all the time on the forums, "I'm this and I hate seeing this." "Well, I'm that too and love seeing it!" That is always going to be a no win situation. TOR forums show it even more. No high heels in combat? Check! WAY more fully covered armors versus scantily clad armor choices? CHECK! Yet you'll still see posts focused on the 6 revealing outfits (10-12 if you count color/slight change variations).

 

No form of entertainment before video games was the 'be all that' to every social group. Video games aren't going to be any different.

 

Though watching the video it made me realize how sad it is to see artist take Samus' armor from, hides her gender, to hugs every curve of her body, and it's not just male artists doing it. But not surprised as it happens to every character (regardless of gender) by someone at some point.

 

And of the list of games of positive females (they showed 6) only one seemed to be truly a hit, even when they were generally critically acclaimed titles (at least at start). Can't speak for their hype though, as I only recall two of the titles they mentioned and neither of their playstyles appealed to me.

 

Maybe in the end, the market is just to fickle?

And of the list of games of positive females (they showed 6) only one seemed to be truly a hit, even when they were generally critically acclaimed titles (at least at start). Can't speak for their hype though, as I only recall two of the titles they mentioned and neither of their playstyles appealed to me.

 

Maybe in the end, the market is just to fickle?

 

I actually think the problem is that publishers are risk averse, developers are timid, and the existing market is too inured in (and in some cases feels too entitled to) the status quo. (By market, I'm referring to the 20-30 something straight white male which is usually the demographic.)

 

But none of that means that brave developers and publishers shouldn't keep trying to be more inviting/inclusive to people who are outside that narrow demographic.

 

As for the female protagonists in games - I'm cynical that that will change any time soon. Just look at Hollywood, they've got the same problem with (a lack of) female protagonists.

 

(Lara Croft has her own cult following, and they really didn't have to do too much in the way of promoting the game because the title Tomb Raider, and its storied history, did it all for them - it had an established audience that was always going to buy it. The other games, I know next to nothing about. See, to promote a game you actually have to you know... promote it.)

I actually think the problem is that publishers are risk averse, developers are timid, and the existing market is too inured in (and in some cases feels too entitled to) the status quo. (By market, I'm referring to the 20-30 something straight white male which is usually the demographic.)

 

But none of that means that brave developers and publishers shouldn't keep trying to be more inviting/inclusive to people who are outside that narrow demographic.

 

As for the female protagonists in games - I'm cynical that that will change any time soon. Just look at Hollywood, they've got the same problem with (a lack of) female protagonists.

 

(Lara Croft has her own cult following, and they really didn't have to do too much in the way of promoting the game because the title Tomb Raider, and its storied history, did it all for them - it had an established audience that was always going to buy it. The other games, I know next to nothing about. See, to promote a game you actually have to you know... promote it.)

 

I should correct myself a bit, on their list of positive females, it was really a list of "look cover art that doesn't show off any or not really much skin"

 

As for the Hollywood comment, I'm curious, as I don't really watch anything made outside of Hollywood, is it a Hollywood thing? How do other countries fair in this area in their film making?

Hey all.

Been lurking waiting to see what else EAWare has in store for us. But it seems that things are really starting to quiet down even in this thread. Do you think that the hope of getting true SGRA's is finally becoming less and less of a possibility? Was Makeb our one shot wonder and that will be it? Thoughts?

 

Like stuffy, I don't have hopes anymore for SGRs with our current companions. Not only that, I think anything companion related it's been scrapped (if there was anything planned that is). At most, we may get a cool awesome new companion through the cartel market. Hell, seeing that Makeb's story (according the loading screen) was Chapter 4 I kinda feel naive hoping for a true class story expansion in the future

Hi all, I've been lurking whilst unsubbed and found I could only post whilst subing and tried out the F2P features, but it just teased too much.

 

Anyway, back on the topic I believe they will do it as this is stuff that was meant to be done pre-release however it seems as they don't want a mere copy of the same wording, but available to the other gender but a bit more substance to it, though I can't say for certain. I am glad that they have admitted that they're working on it and everything, however it is disheartening when you see posts where they stated somewhat "this year" and find it was dated back in september

 

Looks like we'll have to remain and be patient. Who knows, it might be snuck in under a update or something.

I think they will add them. They just have more important issues on their plate first.

I think they will add them. They just have more important issues on their plate first.

 

I agree. I think they will add them as well. I just think they'll be CM items.

Here is my thoughts. NOOOOOOOOO same sex stuff doesnt belong in the Star wars universe, it's sickening that I have the option to listen to some very cringe worthy dialog when I decided to see how it works, no. Just no.

 

I've voiced my opinion plenty and just get called a phobe, but yet I have no problem with same sex stuff being in ME, or if it was in Skyrim or ESO but Star Wars isn't a place nor a time where it fits.

 

If people who wish for same sex stuff in SWTOR, play the opposite to your gender, just realise that it isn't 'hate' that is the reason it's not In game, it's because it breaks the lore, before makeb was released name me on instance of same sex frollicing.

it's because it breaks the lore, before makeb was released name me on instance of same sex frollicing.

Juhani in KOTOR, Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur in Boba Fett novels.

 

Also, did you know that the Hutts are hermaphrodites? You REALLY think anyone buys your "I'm concerned about the lore" excuse?

Edited June 26, 2013 by Pietrastor

You forget about them because it's.... Well subtle. And FYI im Bi-sexual. But same sex stuff is a little too much for me, with it being star wars.

 

Revan is male and therefore juhani's same sex stuff didn't happen.

 

And as for the hutts that's all well and good but they grow a male or a female personality and we never see any hurt love so we assume that they are hetero with there partner choices.

You forget about them because it's.... Well subtle.

What's subtle? The fact that Goran and Medrit are married? It's stated clear, nobody needs additional clarification what it means when 2 guys are married.

 

Revan is male and therefore juhani's same sex stuff didn't happen.

Juhani has a former female lover in her story regardless of Revan's gender and romance with Revan. Next excuse?

 

And as for the hutts that's all well and good but they grow a male or a female personality and we never see any hurt love so we assume that they are hetero with there partner choices.

:confused:

Can't remember Juhani talking about a past lover.

 

They are subtle because no-one reads that ****, its filler labled canon. "cuz its bubbah fetts and stuff, I make moneys"

 

I just dont agree with them putting homosexuality into star wars, maybe, if they made it the norm of the universe sure. Be cool if they made SWTOR 2 and you chose your sexuality. Maybe its all that Sith pure blood's fault I really dont like the way he has a "rape stare"

 

The hutt thing, go read it up, they may not be two sexes but they either have a masculine or a feminine personality

Edited June 26, 2013 by Amaterasustee

Can't remember Juhani talking about a past lover.

Ain't our problem you have bad memory.

 

They are subtle because no-one reads that ****, its filler labled canon. "cuz its bubbah fetts and stuff, I make moneys"

George Lucas approved it = it's canon no matter how much it doesn't fit you. George and people at LucasArts (now Disney) dictate what fits and doesn't fit the lore and they say homosexuality fits it. There's nothing more to discuss.

 

I just dont agree with them putting homosexuality into star wars

Argue that with George Lucas then.

 

The hutt thing, go read it up, they may not be two sexes but they either have a masculine or a feminine personality

And? Personality doesn't change their physiology nor that they ain't sexually "the majority/the standard" in the galaxy like most of other species. They showcase the diversity of life in the galaxy. You think homosexuality doesn't fit a universe with such unusal, from "our" perspective, species like the Hutts? Seriously, get over it. Edited June 26, 2013 by Pietrastor

The reason Star Wars doesn't have a history of same sex relationships (or any sort of sexuality beyond heterosexual missionary) is because of the entities that holds the rights to the universe (Disney and Lucasarts) and their various hangups about sexuality.

 

No overarching world lore should rule out non-heterosexuality as an occurrence and still be considered a complete world. The statistics of real life show us that sexuality and gender roles of varying forms is a thing that happens. You get bisexual and homosexual humans as well as animals. Humans choose to embrace certain gender roles or work within a "non standard" family structure, as do animals as well. There are hermaphroditic animals, as well as animals that work in family units with two fathers and one mother (Tamarins), female dominated societies (no, not Drow. Spotted Hyenas), and there are animals where the male carries the children to term (seahorses).

 

So while there very little precedent of Same Gender or "non standard" gender roles in the star wars universe there is absolutely no rhyme or reason as to why it cannot be added.

 

As to the point about, "If you want to flirt with female companions, just play a male character" no. Just no. I'm a lesbian and I still identify 100% as a female. The point of Roleplaying games like SWTOR for me is to get lost in the story. If I decide that the story I want to play involves a female sith warrior, then guess what she's a girl. Would I like there to be a romance option with Jaesa or Vette? Absolutely. Am I disappointed about not getting it? Absolutely. But, the romances of my character are not what define my character or myself. The character's gender is far more important to my rp experience. That being said, this does not at all diminish my desire to see Same Gender Romance become an option in further expansions of the game and while I'm disappointed Bioware did not include them in the game's onset, or the the expansion I can understand that there were other aspects of the game (like keeping it online) that had to come first, and I can be patient.

 

I'm sorry if some of this does not seem like it makes sense, a lot of these ideas are intuitive for me and I find them hard to explain. There is every chance I have left out some sort of clarification that seems obvious to me but has not occurred to someone reading this.

Can't remember Juhani talking about a past lover.

 

They are subtle because no-one reads that ****, its filler labled canon. "cuz its bubbah fetts and stuff, I make moneys"

 

I just dont agree with them putting homosexuality into star wars, maybe, if they made it the norm of the universe sure. Be cool if they made SWTOR 2 and you chose your sexuality. Maybe its all that Sith pure blood's fault I really dont like the way he has a "rape stare"

 

The hutt thing, go read it up, they may not be two sexes but they either have a masculine or a feminine personality

 

The "Star Wars should have no homosexuals" BS is just that, BS.

For what it's worth, even if Lucas intentionally kept homosexuals out of Star WArs (mostly), then it would still be wrong.

Homosexuals, Bisexual, Transgenders are all people and as such they should very well be included into every concept. Every conceived universe, every SF or Fantasy setting.

Anything else is discriminating in itself.

 

Edit: I just saw that SidehVelsan has already expressed what I was trying to say in a much better way, than I did.

My bad for not reading through to the end, before posting a reply.^^

Edited June 26, 2013 by Birthofthecool

The "Star Wars should have no homosexuals" BS is just that, BS.

For what it's worth, even if Lucas intentionally kept homosexuals out of Star WArs (mostly), then it would still be wrong.

Homosexuals, Bisexual, Transgenders are all people and as such they should very well be included into every concept. Every conceived universe, every SF or Fantasy setting.

Anything else is discriminating in itself.

 

Wrong. If Lucas decided there was no homosexuals, bisexuals or transgenders in SW it wouldn't be wrong. It would be his right as it's his fictional universe.

 

If he had came out and said "Yeah, it exists, but it's so rare to be practically unheard of" it wouldn't have been wrong. It's a work of fiction, and therefore what is and isn't included in a work of fiction is totally up to the creator. If you cant deal with that simple idea, you should probably avoid fiction.

 

It's not discriminating. It's a choice in what a creator see's for their creation.

 

That said, there is examples of SGR in SW, and it is so little, BW could easily say "Yeah, there is, and except for a few notable NPCs it's a population big enough to be made up by the playerbase that want to say they're SGR"

 

Basically, RL orientations don't have to be a factor in fiction.

Hmm.. this thread has really slowed down.

 

I'm just starting to decide not to worry about conversations with possible future SGR companions, and just go through them anyway.

 

Seems an odd thing to decide more than a year after launch, but meh.

 

Edit: Ha. I should have hit refresh before posting... lol.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Zandilar

Multiquotes ftw!

 

You forget about them because it's.... Well subtle. And FYI im Bi-sexual. But same sex stuff is a little too much for me, with it being star wars.

 

Clearly you didn't notice them.

 

BTW Juhani's same sex romantic interest in KotOR prior to female!Revan was Belaya. It wasn't explicitly stated in the game, but it certainly parses that way. Belaya's reaction to Revan killing Juhani (to run off and join the Sith), is a little extreme a reaction for someone who was "just friends". (And there was more clues to the nature of the relationship in the game than just that.)

 

Also, just because "canon" Revan is male, doesn't mean Juhani wasn't lesbian - it just means it never came up. (I hate, loathe, despise, and detest the whole idea of "canon" Revan. Yep, irrational feelings are irrational.)

 

Wrong. If Lucas decided there was no homosexuals, bisexuals or transgenders in SW it wouldn't be wrong. It would be his right as it's his fictional universe.

 

You're right. However he hasn't actually said either way. While he still owned LucasArts he had the first and last say on everything that ever got published or released. He had opportunities to quash Juhani in KotOR, and Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur in the novels - but he didn't.

 

I think that kind of kills the "no gays in SW" argument, don't you?

Edited June 26, 2013 by Zandilar
gah, too many errors, does not compute does not compute

Hmm.. this thread has really slowed down.

 

A lot of the earlier activity was frustration out of not getting any information on the promised SGRs. We finally got something, though it wasn't to the level we hoped, discussed what we got and what we hope for in the future, and now we are at the point where we know that we'll probably not get anything else until a new story update. Companions seem to be mostly ignored altogether.

Edited June 26, 2013 by chuixupu

...and now we are at the point where we know that we'll probably not get anything else until a new story update. Companions seem to be mostly ignored altogether.

 

Also, there's confusion about whether or not future story updates will include companions and class story updates or whether they'll all be like Makeb.

 

Current consensus is it'll all be like Makeb, which falls short of the equal options and representation goal, but provides less work for Bioware.

You're right. However he hasn't actually said either way. While he still owned LucasArts he had the first and last say on everything that ever got published or released. He had opportunities to quash Juhani in KotOR, and Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur in the novels - but he didn't.

 

I think that kind of kills the "no gays in SW" argument, don't you?

 

I was responding to (and disagreeing with) a post that was saying "You can't NOT have it in anything, because that wouldn't be right."

 

Then I even said, in response to the other poster, that there were a couple of examples.

 

So, yes, the argument of no gays in SW is killed. That however doesn't mean it's at all common place or spread out through out the far far away galaxy. It could just as easily be accepted and so numerically low occurrence, that the devs could use the example I gave in my post you quoted. "Yes, there are gays. The percentage of which is roughly along the lines of a few NPCs and the players who decide their characters are gay."

 

Fiction doesn't have to match RL. Nor should it have to.

*post edited because the post I was referring to is gone* Edited June 27, 2013 by chuixupu

Hmm.. this thread has really slowed down.

 

I'm just starting to decide not to worry about conversations with possible future SGR companions, and just go through them anyway.

 

Seems an odd thing to decide more than a year after launch, but meh.

 

Edit: Ha. I should have hit refresh before posting... lol.

 

Yeah I made the same decision on a few of my characters since I havn't even met the other characters that my character was going to run into. Plus the female Sith Inquisitor romance is lightside any my sith inquisitor is darkside so it'd be too late to try and turn lightside now lol.

I don't understand how this is a discussion at all.

 

There are same gender romances on Earth, in real life. We're discussing an entire galaxy (with humans in it, as well as a ruling crime family of hermaphrodites...) so why would there not be same gender flings?

 

People are happy with inter-spieces but baulk at same gender? Unbelievable.

 

I'm straight, by the way, so it's not even like I'm "defending" my own orientation. I just can't see how there's an argument against it. A similar debate was prevalent in LotRO, but that had the heavy and weighty lore argument of Tolkien's works behind it. In the Star Wars universe there's next to no reason to assume there aren't homosexual relationships.

Edited June 27, 2013 by SwoopingLion

I don't understand how this is a discussion at all.

 

There are same gender romances on Earth, in real life. We're discussing an entire galaxy (with humans in it, as well as a ruling crime family of hermaphrodites...) so why would there not be same gender flings?

 

People are happy with inter-spieces but baulk at same gender? Unbelievable.

 

I'm straight, by the way, so it's not even like I'm "defending" my own orientation. I just can't see how there's an argument against it. A similar debate was prevalent in LotRO, but that had the heavy and weighty lore argument of Tolkien's works behind it. In the Star Wars universe there's next to no reason to assume there aren't homosexual relationships.

 

Because someone could just as easily say there isn't in a /FICTIONAL/ setting. FICTIONAL. Let me say it again, because obviously you don't get this aspect when you ask this question...FICTIONAL.

 

Now that said, it's already in game. So obviously it's in this FICTIONAL (said it again, in case you didn't understand that in fictional universes RL rules don't have to apply) universe and now it's just a discussion on when will they implement a SGR companion and will it be CM or our current companions.

 

Since the point of the CM was to bring in lots of money for lots of updates, it's wait and see time if they actually put in updates like people have been requesting or just more CM items and FP/OPs.