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Dread Guard Relic BiS?


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my shadow is still using the campaign relic for now because of the higher endurance along with the new dread guard absorb proc

 

i don't have the extra daily comms on him right now to upgrade the healing relic, but i'm not sure if i really want to.

 

 

 

 

on your assassin tank you're using the matrix cube? it's horrible. you'd be much better off with a champion def relic, and you can buy it for 11k

 

Yea I have have that too this guy is again my 3rd tank, was previously BH/Camp geared DPS and recently switched to Tank mostly min maxed BH some rakata mods left but eh I got 8 50s to keep up with most are BH/Camp or better. I'll go grab the Dread Guard Healing and see how it goes.

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I got the internal damage one and the power proc for my Anhillation Mara, did Nightmare Pilgrim with 3 healers, 3 tanks and 10 DPS. Put down almost 15% of raid wide damage, ahead of next highest by 1%.

 

For Anhil the internal proc relic also takes your stance form bonus so you get an extra 10% damage out of it, plus it uses your crit chance and surge, with multiple bleeds occuring you have multiple chances to proc it each time it comes off cool down so pretty potent for this build.

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We need someone to look at these for healers too

 

the Dread Guard Boundless Ages relic is really nice. Most of the descriptions of this item are wrong across the net, it has +47 static power now. If you augment it with a power augment you are only giving up 38 static power to the Battlemaster Relic and in return you are getting +350 clicky power that lasts 30 seconds on a 2 min cooldown

 

I think coupled with a WH pvp relic this is BIS?

 

I ran HM TfB last night with a Triage Adrenal and this new Power Relic and when I double trinketed my innervate crits were hitting near 2500 and my Reviv crits were near 1000 on everyone. Solid stuff.

Edited by Windybanker
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I still don't understand BiS stuff for healing relics, I am seeing Sin tanks running around with 30K HP but to reach that you have to give up considerable Willpower and other defensive stuff for that much endurance...

 

The DPS of the full Campaign/BH or better DPS guys, reached to a level that it is impossible to hold aggro in such setup (there are marauders delivering 2150 DPS during the whole 6 min fight)....

 

That is the reason I am holding my HP around 26.5K but I can keep myself in the aggro department, if my DPS should have to pull the brakes all the time while I can't hold aggro, what is the use of having 2150 DPS...

 

If people are going 30K HP setups plus healing relics, I have no idea how they are holding aggro.....

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I tested the Dread Guard proc healing relic on my Assassin tank against the combat dummy and over a 5 minute fight it healed me for a massive 6096 - I'd hardly call that substantially improving my survivability.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/52394

 

You need to remember that the amount the relic heals for is static. It does not scale with willpower or against total health (like other assassin self-heals). Maybe if it crits the heals are slightly better but in my opinion this type of relic is still useless (even for a healer).

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Really struggling with BiS for Guardian Tank. Right now I have 2 warhero defense relics and I do OK. Defense chance about 27% unstimmed.

 

If I swap for the DG Defense clicky, I go down to 24% defense, but popping it gets me 31%. Are there really boss phases where an extra 7% defense (which relies on RNG, after all) is better than across the board +3%?

 

The shield/absorb clicky seems like a better bet, because the shield chance is so high, so it's almost a guarantee that it will help. I am very wary of the absorb proc relic.

 

Either way, I need to reitemize in a big way, don't I, to get defense closer to 30% as a guardian? My shield is high 40s, and absorb low 50s.

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@LarryRow: Whatever relics you decide upon, you should itemize accordingly. Your defence will take a dive by swapping out one of the war hero relics, so you will need to swap augments and maybe some mods/enhancements to keep your stats in relative harmony if you decide to ditch one. I like to itemise for just a single wh relic, that way I can swap out for clicky without throwing everything off.

 

Back onto the topic, is there a solid conclusion on the dread guard damage proc relics yet? and how would skills that increase internal / elemental damage influence these, if at all?

Edited by Marb
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I'm sorry but could you please post numbers that prove that the heal-proc-relic provides better survivability over a +97def relic?

 

I did exactly that in a thread a while back on the tanking sub forum. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=545590

 

Basically, the WH defense relic gives me about 1.12% less survivability than the Campaign proc heal relic. That's about as much as three Dread Guard set pieces upgraded from Campaign.

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I tested the Dread Guard proc healing relic on my Assassin tank against the combat dummy and over a 5 minute fight it healed me for a massive 6096 - I'd hardly call that substantially improving my survivability.

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/52394

 

You need to remember that the amount the relic heals for is static. It does not scale with willpower or against total health (like other assassin self-heals). Maybe if it crits the heals are slightly better but in my opinion this type of relic is still useless (even for a healer).

 

I know the numbers don't sound like much, but that's only because you're dramatically over-estimating the amount of damage you're mitigating. Not because mitigation is bad or being bypassed, but because the amount of damage you're receiving is very, very small (relatively speaking). See my spreadsheet linked in an earlier post.

 

The proc heal relic is really, really good for assassin/shadow tanks. It contributes about 20 HPS, which is an increase of at least 15.3% on your base self-heal. Seeing as your self heal is a significant component of your overall survivability (13% to be precise), a 15.3% increase is nothing to sniff at.

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I felt bad for creating a thread in general asking when there would be a viable PvE relic, and i did not take the static power into account... but I have read a lot of bad info in this thread, so i feel much better now.

 

healing proc relics are bad, and ill tell u why. they heal for 3 seconds every 20 seconds, meaning they are doing nothing for the tank or healer for 17 seconds, whereas an on use or PvP relic will increase bonus healing consistently and controllably. for a healer its bad because it over heals mroe than anything else.

 

people using the klinetic instead of internal or elemental.... please stop... you think 35% armor penetration is going to negate the other 85% of the armor? also, most bosses have less internal;/elemental resistance than kinetic/energy. on top of that, some bosses might have m,ore armor than others, so the kinetic might be less than the internal/elemental.

 

i appreciate all the valuable work keyboardninja has done for the tanking community, however, I disagree with his interpretation and quantification of survivability. I have had long conversations with ppl at mmomechanics about HP vs. mitigation, and from my analysis, we are better shooting for balanced builds (between the two) than going for one or the other in a diehard fashion. from typical calulations there is a 1% sacrafice in mitigation for every 100 points being switched between mitigation and endurance. what this means is that each HP accounts for less incoming damage, but is offset by selfheals... so if we assume that we are talking about the difference bwteen a mitigation pool of 1600 (with 27000 health) with a healing trinket and a 1700 (with 26000 HP) build then we have the following to consider:

 

1 HP=4.040 incoming damage for 1600

1 HP= 4.172 incoming damage for 1700

 

assumuing we have 5k incoming damage per second we end up with

 

1600) 5000*0.2475-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=1068 dps taken

1700) 5000*0.2397-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 1053 dps taken

 

(assuming 1/2 90% accuracy, 1/2 100% accuracy, 1/2 energy/kinetic and 1/2 elemental/internal)

 

where the following stat tables (prior to rakata fort stim) are used:

 

total defense shield absorb

1400 453 430 518

1500 471 479 550

1600 492 527 581

1700 514 575 611

1800 538 621 641

1900 563 667 670

2000 590 712 698

 

 

This article has shown that the healing proc relic does not decrease the damage taken per second as well as an additional 100 points of mitigation can

Edited by dipstik
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I felt bad for creating a thread in general asking when there would be a viable PvE relic, and i did not take the static power into account... but I have read a lot of bad info in this thread, so i feel much better now.

 

healing proc relics are bad, and ill tell u why. they heal for 3 seconds every 20 seconds, meaning they are doing nothing for the tank or healer for 17 seconds, whereas an on use or PvP relic will increase bonus healing consistently and controllably. for a healer its bad because it over heals mroe than anything else.

 

people using the klinetic instead of internal or elemental.... please stop... you think 35% armor penetration is going to negate the other 85% of the armor? also, most bosses have less internal;/elemental resistance than kinetic/energy. on top of that, some bosses might have m,ore armor than others, so the kinetic might be less than the internal/elemental.

 

So what would be the 2 BiS for both classes?

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i felt bad for creating a thread in general asking when there would be a viable pve relic, and i did not take the static power into account... But i have read a lot of bad info in this thread, so i feel much better now.

 

Healing proc relics are bad, and ill tell u why. They heal for 3 seconds every 20 seconds, meaning they are doing nothing for the tank or healer for 17 seconds, whereas an on use or pvp relic will increase bonus healing consistently and controllably. For a healer its bad because it over heals mroe than anything else.

 

People using the klinetic instead of internal or elemental.... Please stop... You think 35% armor penetration is going to negate the other 85% of the armor? Also, most bosses have less internal;/elemental resistance than kinetic/energy. On top of that, some bosses might have m,ore armor than others, so the kinetic might be less than the internal/elemental.

 

85+35 = 120% ?

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So this thread has been side-tracked and back so I have 1 easy question. What are currently the BiS relics for raiding Assasin Tanks & Annihilation Marauders?

 

Assassin tank:

 

  • Dread Guard Relic of Ephemeral Mending (best)
  • Elite War Hero Relic of Imperiling Serenity (second best)

 

Annihilation maurader:

 

  • Dread Guard Relic of Elemental Transcendence (best)
  • Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (second best)

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Annihilation maurader:

  • Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (second best)

How do you figure this to be superior to the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages exactly? It's a greater power boost overall when used on CD, and applied situationally it will obviously pull ahead even further.

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So what would be the 2 BiS for both classes?

 

sin tank: and of the elite war hero +120 mitigation stats. the absorb proc when at 1600 mitigation pool gives 0.3536 squishiness whereas 1700 gives 0.3522, so +100 is better than +455 of absorb for 6/20 of the time. i have already shown why the healing one is bad.

 

ive never played a merc spec, but typically, the dmg proc relics are best for classes which has a large amount of dots in order to ensure the proc has as much uptime as possible. i know for lethality and madness/hybrid using the PvP vs. the proc is a 10 dps difference about. the on use power has been shown to have a time average power superior to the PvP ones, but I have not seen conclusive sim data for mercs in regard to dmg proc vs. power pvp.

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assumuing we have 5k incoming damage per second we end up with

 

1600) 5000*0.2475-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=1068 dps taken

1700) 5000*0.2397-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 1053 dps taken

 

(assuming 1/2 90% accuracy, 1/2 100% accuracy, 1/2 energy/kinetic and 1/2 elemental/internal)

 

And therein lies the problem: there is no boss in current content which hits that hard. None. (I haven't finished parsing out NiM EC yet, but preliminary numbers still look well shy of NiM KP) In reality, the steady-state damage is about half that, with rare spikes that are much higher. If damage numbers were as high as you assume, then I fully agree that the self-heal is a poor substitute for more mitigation. Damage numbers are simply not that high (remember: wet noodle).

 

Your assumed balance of KE to IE damage is also quite far from the mark. Only 9.41% of damage is IE, which really isn't that much.

 

Finally, I'm not really following the expressions you give at various stat budgets. Could you explain your numbers a bit more? Also, your shield/absorb/defense ratios look quite off across the various stat budgets (my main sits at 1529 divided as 552/510/467 and is ideally balanced to within 0.0044%).

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How do you figure this to be superior to the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages exactly? It's a greater power boost overall when used on CD, and applied situationally it will obviously pull ahead even further.

 

Annihilation doesn't have a lot of significant burst phases. Most of their damage is steady pressure, which implies that a constant buff is preferable to a situational burst. I haven't done the math on this spec though, to be honest, so others may have more authoritative information than I do.

 

Also, the DG relic of Boundless Ages has 82.5 time-averaged power when used on cooldown. That's merely 68.7% of the Elite War Hero power boost. Unless Ask Mr Robot hasn't updated yet…

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Also, the DG relic of Boundless Ages has 82.5 time-averaged power when used on cooldown. That's merely 68.7% of the Elite War Hero power boost.

Hmmm... I get 87.5 power averaged. Either way, when added to the passively itemised 47 power on the relic, that is greater than 120, no?

Edited by Aurojiin
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