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Kaggath Series: Exar Kun vs Mandalore the Ultimate


Beniboybling

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I guess if the Revan vs Mandalore never happen you would likely be saying worse because a Large amount of Revan's forces were normal Warriors with out Force Powers and they managed to beat the Mandalorians on every Level.

Oel'Droma has something Kun does not , "a Conscience" . He was often conflicted and tore from the inside . Not to mention Kun is not Qel'Droma , Jedi feared Kun . It would not be long before Mandalorians found a reason to fear him too.

 

Mandalorians do not fear, they respect.

 

And also the Republic fought the Neo-crusaders with overwhelming numbers, and yet the Mandalorians still made the Republic tremble before it fell.

 

But my question remains unanswered: what is the ratio of Krath/Massassi to Mandalorians and then Mandalorians on Bassilisks?

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Alright I'm gonna engage in this whole "Challenge Mandalore" thing.

 

Beni: I has idea methinks is good :D

 

Since Mandalore is just a title, and since there are many other Mandalorians who are AS good as Mandalore (like Ordo), I think (in this Kaggath) that if Kun kills MtU, another Mandalore will rise in his place (once again - like Ordo). I think it'd be a pretty cool idea. Not only does Kun have to defeat Mandalore himself, but Kun has to defeat the entire Mandalorian army. I'm not saying that Kun has to kill every individual Mando to get victory, but he has to defeat the Mandos as a whole. Wouldn't that make it a little more interesting + give the Mandos a little boost? I feel that it's realistic 'cause that's what the Mandos actually do. Thoughts?

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Mandalorians do not fear, they respect.

 

And also the Republic fought the Neo-crusaders with overwhelming numbers, and yet the Mandalorians still made the Republic tremble before it fell.

 

But my question remains unanswered: what is the ratio of Krath/Massassi to Mandalorians and then Mandalorians on Bassilisks?

 

Good question. Perhaps Beni (the Kaggath god) can answer this for us?

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Alright I'm gonna engage in this whole "Challenge Mandalore" thing.

 

Beni: I has idea methinks is good :D

 

Since Mandalore is just a title, and since there are many other Mandalorians who are AS good as Mandalore (like Ordo), I think (in this Kaggath) that if Kun kills MtU, another Mandalore will rise in his place (once again - like Ordo). I think it'd be a pretty cool idea. Not only does Kun have to defeat Mandalore himself, but Kun has to defeat the entire Mandalorian army. I'm not saying that Kun has to kill every individual Mando to get victory, but he has to defeat the Mandos as a whole. Wouldn't that make it a little more interesting + give the Mandos a little boost? I feel that it's realistic 'cause that's what the Mandos actually do. Thoughts?

 

You have heard of what happened when Ulic beat Mandalore right?

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Alright I'm gonna engage in this whole "Challenge Mandalore" thing.

 

Beni: I has idea methinks is good :D

 

Since Mandalore is just a title, and since there are many other Mandalorians who are AS good as Mandalore (like Ordo), I think (in this Kaggath) that if Kun kills MtU, another Mandalore will rise in his place (once again - like Ordo). I think it'd be a pretty cool idea. Not only does Kun have to defeat Mandalore himself, but Kun has to defeat the entire Mandalorian army. I'm not saying that Kun has to kill every individual Mando to get victory, but he has to defeat the Mandos as a whole. Wouldn't that make it a little more interesting + give the Mandos a little boost? I feel that it's realistic 'cause that's what the Mandos actually do. Thoughts?

 

There's only one problem with that. It's actually a pretty funny problem if you think about it. If Kun beats Mandalore, which he would quite easily, then the Mandalorians have to pick a new Mandalore. They aren't just gonna go down a line and say "OK Your turn. Go get killed."

 

That's kind of what the scenario is like here. Exar Kun would easily beat any Mandalorian they threw at him. This guy schooled Jedi Masters with ease. He is easily one of the most powerful Sith of all time.

 

I like Mandalore and his chances are fairly good here, but when we get down to it, he's going to lose. The Sith at Exar Kun's command were capable of killing Jedi Masters. Mandalore the Ultimate was bested by an army of Padawans and Knights, very few masters. Combine that with the skill of the Krath and barbarism of the Massassi Warriors and we have ourselves and army that can best the Mandalorians.

 

But the only question I have is, how many Basilisk War Droids does Mandalore have? That's the only real thing he has going for him, but we saw how well they did against Revan's Jedi.

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I am a total Mandohead, but looking at it critically this is what I believe would be the result.

 

Firstly, Exar Kun has a few advantages. He has the force, devout Massassi warriors altered by Sith alchemy, Krath warriors and dark side beasts. Mandalore the Ultimate has technology on his side. Warriors clad in Mandalorian iron suits and Basiliskan droids and starships. We also know the quality of his Neo-Crusader warriors are not all up to Mandalorian standards, since he released prisoners to fight for him and drafted civilians to make up his forces. Exar Kun used stolen Republic and ageing Krath technology.

 

Mandalorians fighting against the Massassi is a pretty easy outcome. The Massassi use melee weapons and projectiles in the form of disks (Lanvaroks) and they lack full armour. The Mandos use full armour suits and most frequently use blaster weapons. The Mandalorians have the advantage there.

 

But in the end, Exar Kun is a clear winner. His mastery of the dark side gives him the power to overwhelm the Mandalorians, and if he can use illusions (like Naga Sadow used to give the illusion of a larger force) he could supplement his forces with that. We know that Exar Kun was one of the greatest duelists and force users of his time. Even a force of fully trained Jedi had to imprison him just to defeat him because they couldn't get close enough to kill him. If the Jedi have little chance, then the Mandalorians have zero.

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Some food for thought.

 

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

 

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

 

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.

Edited by Beniboybling
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Some food for thought.

 

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

 

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

 

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.

 

Exar Kun had several Jedi Knights that he turned to the Dark Side. These Jedi were capable of killing their own masters in battle, so I'd put them above the normal Jedi that Revan had in the war. Not only that, but Ulic Qel-Droma took out Mandalore's personal Basilisk with relative ease. The War droids may pose a threat to Exar Kun's Krath and Massassi, but not a great one to his Sith.

 

In the end, I see it coming down to Exar and some Sith taking on Mandalore and a fairly large group of Mandalorians. If this is the case, Exar Kun wins easy.

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Some food for thought.

 

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

 

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

 

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.

If this is the case then the Krath warships and Republic technology go down in flames. Bassilisks are quite dangerous, more firepower than any starfighters of their time, able to take down ships much, much larger than themselves, and they are war mechs, not just vehicles. Semi-sentient, able to fight in melee range and bombard from a distance.

 

I don't really like seige scenarios, but are we looking at EK holding up at Y4? If so I call shenanigans. Mandalorians are known to sling-shot nukes, and they could bombard Y4 into a smoldering crater.

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If this is the case then the Krath warships and Republic technology go down in flames. Bassilisks are quite dangerous, more firepower than any starfighters of their time, able to take down ships much, much larger than themselves, and they are war mechs, not just vehicles. Semi-sentient, able to fight in melee range and bombard from a distance.

 

I don't really like seige scenarios, but are we looking at EK holding up at Y4? If so I call shenanigans. Mandalorians are known to sling-shot nukes, and they could bombard Y4 into a smoldering crater.

 

Wouldn't nukes be considered superweapons?

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Some food for thought.

 

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

 

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

 

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.

 

So, for arguments sake, we're saying that for every 4 Mandos there is a single Basilisk? That's pretty good for MtU.

 

We know how affective the Basilisks are, but we also know that Revan was able to single-handedly take one out in the novel. I hear Ulic Qel-Droma did the same. So with that in mind, the Basilisks aren't gonna be a big problem for Kun, Qel-Droma, and a few of the more powerful Sith/Dark Jedi on their side.

 

HOWEVER: Kun's army is made up mostly of Krath and Massassi. With 1/4 Mandos owning a Basilisk, they're gonna kill tons of Kun's army. Also, the Mandos are technologically superior.

 

This is how I see the scenario playing out:

Both armies engage in a epic series of battles. This results in high casulties for Kun, and relatively low casulties for MtU. Because of their victories, the Mando's bloodlust goes out the roof! The Mandos win a few more battles due to their momentum, but they've become proud. They essentially corner Kun's army - who are tired of losing.

 

And we all know how dangerous a cornered beast is.

 

The Mandos go all out attack and are MURDERED by the Kun and his army. Kun and his men have slowly accumulated so much hatred towards the Mandos that it shows in their fighting and they kill 5 Mandos for every Krath/Massassi that goes down.

 

Despite this victory, Mando numbers remain higher then Kun's. But the all-important momentum of MtU and his army has been lost - along with many of their Basilisks. Kun goes on the offensive and wins a series of battles. At this point it is obvious that MtU has lost, and he takes defensive measures as he did at the Battle of Malachor V. And just like the Battle of Malachor, he loses. The end.

 

That's how I see things playing out. I really do want MtU to win it, but I just don't see it happening.

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The topic of bombardment comes up quite a bit in these battles. Should there be a rule against bombardment? Just for the sake of a debate. Because if Mandalore can dominate space, there's no need to engage Exar Kun where he is strongest.

I don't see a point (or yours for that matter :p) If one combatant has a superior space advantage, they get the benefit of orbital bombardment. Orbital bombardment itself is not the problem, its imprentrable-ish fortresses, which orbital bombardment counters. So in this case, Exar Kun couldn't hunker down on Yavin 4 if driven back. Because Mandalore would blow his temple to pieces.

 

And yes nukes are banned, but orbital bombardment via laser cannons (see Taris) does not count as a superweapon.

 

The way I see it, minus Exar Kun = Mandalore victory. But Exar Kun is in the Kaggath (Ulic-Qel Droma isn't however, so him destroying Basilik war droids is an invalid point - not to mention the fact that he is considerably better than your standard dark jedi) so the tide turns.

 

Exar Kun could face and easily defeat Mandalore in person, but he has to get to him first. I don't know if Mandalore has a specific base so I guess it would be on his flagship. So he has to confront Mandalore's flagship, and board it - which requires some sort of space advantage...

 

The space advantage also hinges on ground advantage as that determines resources, territory etc.

So we have to consider, how to the combatants armies weigh up?

 

Krath <> Mandalorians?

Dark Jedi <> Mandalorians?

Massassi Warriors <> Mandalorians?

Sith War Beasts <> Basilik War Droids?

etc.

 

Thoughts?

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So, for arguments sake, we're saying that for every 4 Mandos there is a single Basilisk? That's pretty good for MtU.

Well as long as everyone else agrees... all I know is they were present in almost every battle. It took one Mando to pilot one. And in the Revan novel, Revan encounters a clan of say 10-12? With 2 Basilik droids, and that was when they were outlawed after the war, we assume they had more at the height of Mandalore's power.

 

So yes, at least 1 Basilisk per 4 Mandos

We know how affective the Basilisks are, but we also know that Revan was able to single-handedly take one out in the novel. I hear Ulic Qel-Droma did the same. So with that in mind, the Basilisks aren't gonna be a big problem for Kun, Qel-Droma, and a few of the more powerful Sith/Dark Jedi on their side.

Remember though, Revan and Qel-Dromo (the latter is not in this fight) were powerful force users. So no surprises their. I expect a 2 Basilisk could defeat a single dark Jedi. Yes they killed their masters, but they caught them by surprise, and not all succeeded - so we have to take that with a pinch of salt.

 

You make good points however.

 

So have we decided that Mandalore dominates space? If so, that changes things...

IMO yes. But thats in non-arbiter mode and subject to debate.

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Wait Kun doesn't get his own personal Sith apprentice in this battle? okay, don't see the sense in that but very well(I could understand Traya not having Nihilus or Sion due to their uber abilities but Ulic is not on that level).

 

Oh and I think the Krath cult is being severely underestimated here, they faced off the Jedi Order and handed them their backsides, a far superior Order compared to the Jedi that the Mandalorians faced in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

The Massassi engaged the Republic forces and briefly engaged the Mandalorians under Ulic's banner and were clearly holding their own in battle, so they are being underestimated to.

 

Then we have the most promising Knights and Padawans in the Jedi Order who turned to Kun's Sith Empire via the Dark Holocron, one of these was, none other than, Sion.

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I don't see a point (or yours for that matter :p) If one combatant has a superior space advantage, they get the benefit of orbital bombardment. Orbital bombardment itself is not the problem, its imprentrable-ish fortresses, which orbital bombardment counters. So in this case, Exar Kun couldn't hunker down on Yavin 4 if driven back. Because Mandalore would blow his temple to pieces.

 

And yes nukes are banned, but orbital bombardment via laser cannons (see Taris) does not count as a superweapon.

 

The way I see it, minus Exar Kun = Mandalore victory. But Exar Kun is in the Kaggath (Ulic-Qel Droma isn't however, so him destroying Basilik war droids is an invalid point - not to mention the fact that he is considerably better than your standard dark jedi) so the tide turns.

 

Exar Kun could face and easily defeat Mandalore in person, but he has to get to him first. I don't know if Mandalore has a specific base so I guess it would be on his flagship. So he has to confront Mandalore's flagship, and board it - which requires some sort of space advantage...

 

The space advantage also hinges on ground advantage as that determines resources, territory etc.

So we have to consider, how to the combatants armies weigh up?

 

Krath <> Mandalorians?

Dark Jedi <> Mandalorians?

Massassi Warriors <> Mandalorians?

Sith War Beasts <> Basilik War Droids?

etc.

 

Thoughts?

 

*retracted*

 

because of the size of bassilisk war droids, they do not cary many destructive long-range weapons. They need ballistic artillary.

Edited by BlazingShadow
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I may be biased - blast it, I'm a Mandalorian fool - but I gotta say Mandalore the Ultimate would kick Exar's shebs.

 

A Mandalorian(Don't care if it's Boba Fett.) would 'kick Exar's shebs'? arguably the third most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith ever? one of the finest duellists ever? the guy who put Luke Skywalker in a coma, as a spirit no less? I can't see that logic.

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Wait Kun doesn't get his own personal Sith apprentice in this battle? okay, don't see the sense in that but very well(I could understand Traya not having Nihilus or Sion due to their uber abilities but Ulic is not on that level).
Rules are rules. Malgus didn't have Serevin. Grievous didn't have Ventress. Revan didn't have Meetra and Saul. Traya didn't have Sion and Nihilus. No other prominent powers. Seeing as Qel-Droma led the Krath forces and was Kun's powerful apprentice, he is outlawed. Just as Mandalore doesn't have Cassus Fett or Canderous. The rule has to be universal. I admit I let Guri and co. pass, but I realise now that was a mistake. I don't want the debate to get subverted by other powers.

Oh and I think the Krath cult is being severely underestimated here, they faced off the Jedi Order and handed them their backsides, a far superior Order compared to the Jedi that the Mandalorians faced in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

The Massassi engaged the Republic forces and briefly engaged the Mandalorians under Ulic's banner and were clearly holding their own in battle, so they are being underestimated to.

 

Then we have the most promising Knights and Padawans in the Jedi Order who turned to Kun's Sith Empire via the Dark Holocron, one of these was, none other than, Sion.[/color]

You make a good point here.

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Rayla's points about the Krath and Massassi are very good points. I have a feeling that Exar Kun would win any sort of land engagement. Do the Mandalorians know that? No. The consider themselves the best. This leads to the following scenario:

 

Having successfully dominated the space battles in this war, Mandalore forces Exar Kun to retreat to Yavin 4. The relative ease at which they succeeded in space gives them a foolish pride that sends them into battle. Mandalore deploys his massive armies to engage Kun's forces.

 

Exar Kun personally leads his forces into battle, devastating the Mandalorian army. In a hasty retreat, the Mandalorians fail to see Kun take his personal shuttle and board Mandalore's flagship. Needless to say, Kun emerges victorious and forces Mandalore's service. Much like Ulic did to Mandalore the Indomitable.

 

This is a hypothetical scenario of course, but given the evidence we have for both sides, seems quite accurate. But, by all means, debate with me.

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Well as long as everyone else agrees... all I know is they were present in almost every battle. It took one Mando to pilot one. And in the Revan novel, Revan encounters a clan of say 10-12? With 2 Basilik droids, and that was when they were outlawed after the war, we assume they had more at the height of Mandalore's power.

 

So yes, at least 1 Basilisk per 4 Mandos

 

Remember though, Revan and Qel-Dromo (the latter is not in this fight) were powerful force users. So no surprises their. I expect a 2 Basilisk could defeat a single dark Jedi. Yes they killed their masters, but they caught them by surprise, and not all succeeded - so we have to take that with a pinch of salt.

 

You make good points however.

 

 

IMO yes. But thats in non-arbiter mode and subject to debate.

 

You make the good point that 1 or 2 Basilisks is all they need to take down a single Dark Jedi. This changes things.

 

With as many Basilisks MtU has, he's gonna have more of them then Kun's gonna have Dark Jedi. So I wanna throw this out there:

Dark Jedi _ Basilisk (note: there are a lot more Basilisks then Dark Jedi)

Krath/Massassi _ Mando (there are a lot more Mandos)

Exar Kun > MtU (easy)

Kun's fleet < MtU's fleet (due to Basilsks and sheer numbers)

Kun's leadership _ MtU's leadership (MtU is a freaking Mando, and Kun is ... well.. Kun)

 

Now I'm having a tuff time seeing Kun as the victor...

 

I'd also like to compare Revan's army to Kun's. This is to help us better understand Kun and his forces.

Kun's Dark Jedi > Revanchists (nuff said)

Krath/Massassi _ Standard Republic soldier (this is due to tech advantage with Revan's men - in a feirce melee I'd give it to the Krath/Massassi)

Kun's fleet < Revan's fleet

Kun's leadership < Revan's leadership (debatable)

Kun's power > Revan's power (if this was Revan reborn it'd be close)

Kun's general's < Revan's generals (Revan has Surik, Karath, Malak and others)

- I'm sure a few of you disagree about this, but hang with me for argument's sake

 

So how would MtU manage to beat Kun since he lost to Revan? I feel the biggest difference is this: Revan's fleet bigger/better then Kun's. Note that I'm not yet saying that Kun would win, I just feel that this fight is now a coin toss instead of a clear victory for Kun. Wow Beni, good job. I feel this will be a close Kaggath.

 

If Kun is gonna win this it will be SOLELY through his personel powers and perhaps the brutallity of his soldiers. I'm unsure of the winner at this point.

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Um, MasterMe, the Krath beat the hell out of the much larger Republic fleet than the one seen forty years later several times over, so no Revan's fleet is not > Kun's fleet.

 

Well I don't know a whole lot about the Krath. After reading the past few posts I'll change my mind that thr Krath/Massassi are better then Republic soldiers and perhaps better then Mando soldiers.

 

But as for the fleets, are the Krath supplying the ships and the crewmen to Kun's fleet? That would make a big difference.

 

But yeah, I'll agree (as of now) that the Krath are better then standard Republic troops (and perhaps the Mandos), but I have a feeling they'd have a tuff time with Revan's fleet. Also, didn't someone say a while ago that we'd decided that the Mando fleet is better then Kun's? If so, then Revan's is likely better then Kun's. If not, then I'm being told some conflicting into on Kun and his ships.

 

Somebody inform me: just how powerful is Kun's fleet?

Edited by MasterMe
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the Mando fleet is better then Kun's.

 

I honestly don't know where anybody got that idea, but they are roughly the same size, IIRC.

 

And yes, Kun's fleet is primarily made up of Krath ships, but he also has refurbished Sith ships in his fleet as well as the ships that he stole from various raids.

Edited by Rayla_Felana
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