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Nerf Mercenaries


FREDDOSPWN

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Could I also have those non flashy commando attacks on my merc? Cuz when I do DFA I am easely targeted, same goeswith my tracer missiles.

 

Thx in advance TC.

 

Those issues have no mechanical impact whatsoever. The problems you are describing can have a range of causes:

1) Bad positioning.

2) More players playing Empire, resulting in more Mercenaries than Commandos (people are more familiar with their animations).

3) The Republic having better PvPers on your server.

 

Once again, this is a player related - not a game mechanics - issue.

 

Also, please try and include something on-topic (heat vs ammo) if you continue to post.

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First off, by adding rapid shots you are simply subtracting from the numerator of a fraction (heat loss/time) thus making your ratio of those fractions (vanguard/merc) absurdly high. It simply doesn't help your cause when you inject math distortions like that and then trumpet the result, "Vanguards use 66.6% more resources than Mercs" which fails everyone's basic understanding of the matter. It's like claiming that wine has 10x the alcohol content of beer - if you first extract a fixed amount of alcohol from each fluid.

 

Secondly random lag doesn't affect both characters equally. It affects the mean (average) performance of each character equally. That is a statistics distinction which you may not be aware of. But your testing methodology is specifically vulnerable to random white noise, for reasons which I will try to explain. The basic segment of your test (FlameBurst + Rapid Shots) has almost NO measurable heat usage (1 unit). Over those two GCDs, your timing loss can easily be 0.2 seconds, which causes heat dissipation of - yes, 1 unit! Thus a common level of variance can completely disguise the very metric you are attempting to measure. That is why a test consisting of basic segments with a higher measurable heat usage, such as I used, are inherently more accurate.

 

Yes, you could get more accuracy by running the tests repeatedly. But using your methodology you might literally need to do it hundreds of times because the variance is so high relative to the mean of the metric you are measuring. Good luck with that.

 

 

 

Sometimes, no matter how hard both people try, it is not possible for the person taking the other side of an issue from you to prove that you are correct.

 

I did a manual run-through of the situation to eliminate any white noise. I put it in spoiler tags to save space (there may be errors). The assumptions I made:

0-39 high heat regeneration, 40 - 79 medium regeneration, 80 - 100 low regeneration.

12 - 8 high regeneration, 8 - 3 medium regeneration, 3 - 0 low regeneration.

 

 

 

Bounty Hunter:

Cost: 16 heat

 

Regeration per rotation:

High Regen: 15 Net: 1 heat

Medium Regen: 9 Net: 7 heat

Low Regen: 6 Net: 10 heat

 

Trooper:

Cost: 2 ammo

 

Regeneration per rotation:

High Regen: 1.8 Net: 0.2 ammo

Medium Regen: 1.08 Net: 0.92 ammo

Low Regen: 0.72 Net: 1.28 ammo

 

After 24 rotations the Bounty Hunter will have 24 heat, he will drop into medium regeneration on the 25th rotation (24 + 16 = 40). There will be 1 second of medium regeneration followed by two of high regeneration, net loss is 3 heat (27).

Rotation 26 (27 + 16 = 43) will have 2 seconds of medium regeneration followed by 1 of high regeneration, net loss is 5 heat (32).

Rotation 27 (32 + 16 = 48) will have all medium regeneration (39).

After 31 rotations the Bounty Hunter will have 67 heat, he will drop into low regeneration on the 32nd rotation (67 + 16 = 83). There will be 2 seconds of low regeneration followed by 1 second of medium regeneration, net loss is 9 heat (76).

They will get one final rotation before having too much heat (76 + 16 = 92). Result is 33 full rotations and 86 heat left.

 

After 10 rotations the Trooper will have 10 ammo, he will drop into medium regeneration on the 11th rotation (10 - 2 = 8). There will be 1 second of medium regeneration followed by two of high regeneration, net loss is 0.44 (9.56).

Rotation 12 (9.56 - 2 = 7.56) will have 2 seconds of medium regeneration followed by 1 of high regeneration, net loss is 0.68 (8.88).

Rotation 13 (8.88 - 2 = 6.88) will have all medium regeneration (7.96).

After 17 rotations the trooper will have 4.28 ammo, he will drop into low regeneration on the 18th rotation (4.28 - 2 = 2.28). There will be 3 seconds of low regeneration, net loss is 1.28 (3).

They will get one final rotation before having too little ammo (3 - 2 = 1). Result is 19 full rotations and 1.72 ammo left.

 

 

 

As you can see, the Trooper gets 19 rotations. The Bounty Hunter gets 33.

33 > 19.

I'll assume the difference in values (from the real-world tests) is due to the white noise. There is still a substantial difference though. Feel free to point out anything that is inconsistent.

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Those issues have no mechanical impact whatsoever. The problems you are describing can have a range of causes:

1) Bad positioning.

2) More players playing Empire, resulting in more Mercenaries than Commandos (people are more familiar with their animations).

3) The Republic having better PvPers on your server.

 

Once again, this is a player related - not a game mechanics - issue.

 

Also, please try and include something on-topic (heat vs ammo) if you continue to post.

Your issues are important but his aren't because they don't affect your toon? I was on board while reading your posts. But then you blamed this on familiarity with animations hehehe

 

This is true that commando ammo is not equal to merc heat. But don't be surprised when something changes (possibly for the worse) involving offhand accuracy. That's the Empire's version of Merc/Commando inequality. Commando uses 1 weapon, no damage penalty. Merc uses 2, the offhand has low accuracy and which is an indirect damage penalty.

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Out of curiousity I did that, on a vanguard and powertech. Ion Pulse -> Hammer Shots vs. Flame Burst -> Rapid Shots. Until overheated/out of ammo.

 

Did 4 runs on the vanguard: 31, 29, 32 and 34 Ion Pulse before out of ammo.

 

Only did 2 runs on the powertech, because the difference is so overwhelming: 50 and 60 Flame bursts, and I wasn't even out of the maximum heat dissipation tier. Just stopped because it got so very boring.

 

So, while I don't actively play neither powertech nor vanguard most of the time, this changed my mind. When I first read the thread, my first thought was "People will whine about anything", but I now see this as a real concern, and want to state my support for fixing this. Not that it matters, but anyway.

 

I had the same experience. Let me quote myself from this post: (see the yellow highlight)

So I created a new Trooper and Bounty Hunter to test this.

 

When they reached level 10 I went to the fleet and used the Level 10 Combat Training Target dummy.

 

Tests were done with 70ms Server Lag and "Ability Action Queue Window" set to "1".

 

Trooper:

Explosive Round (3 ammo): 5 shots before "out of ammo". (4th shot, wait a tiny bit, 5th shot)

Explosive Round (3 ammo) + Hammer Shot: 6 shots before "out of ammo".

Vanguard: (chose AC, trained Ion Pulse, no talent points applied)

Ion Pulse (2 ammo): 8 shots before "out of ammo".

Ion Pulse (2 ammo) + Hammer Shot: 27 shots before "out of ammo".

 

Bounty Hunter:

Missile Blast (25 heat): 5 shots before "overheated". (no wait between 4th and 5th shot)

Missile Blast (25 heat) + Rapid Shots: 6 shots before "overheated".

Powertech:

Flame Burst (16 heat): 9 shots before "overheated".

Flame Burst (16 heat) + Rapid Shots: NEVER "overheated". I couldn't for the life of me get heat to go over "20" never mind "overheat". I tried multiple times. Gave up after about 10 minutes. Tried an hour later again, same result.

(NOTE: I retried the equivalent test on the Vanguard multiple times, but on the Vanguard the result was always the same: out of ammo after 27 shots.)

 

There is definitely a problem here as noted before. Depending on the heat cost, the Bounty Hunter/Powertech has a definite advantage. When spamming only Flame Burst, they can fire off one shot more before "running dry". When spamming Flame Burst and Rapid Shots they never run out of resources (At least not on my test :p).

 

This needs looking into.

 

There is definitely an issue here that needs looking into.

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Your issues are important but his aren't because they don't affect your toon? I was on board while reading your posts. But then you blamed this on familiarity with animations hehehe

 

This is true that commando ammo is not equal to merc heat. But don't be surprised when something changes (possibly for the worse) involving offhand accuracy. That's the Empire's version of Merc/Commando inequality. Commando uses 1 weapon, no damage penalty. Merc uses 2, the offhand has low accuracy and which is an indirect damage penalty.

 

The people I play with can train a Commando using grav round faster than a Mercenary using tracer missile. Does that mean that the Commando's animations are worse?

No, it does not. It means that the people I play with are used to killing Commandos.

 

Thanks for your support on the heat vs ammo issue.

 

As I have shown earlier in the thread, a Mercenary that hits with both of his weapons will out-damage a Commando that hits with the assault cannon. The accuracy debuff means that the average damage is roughly equal between the two characters.

 

I had the same experience. Let me quote myself from this post: (see the yellow highlight)

 

 

There is definitely an issue here that needs looking into.

 

It is always good seeing more people realise how big the discrepancy between heat and ammo truly is. Hopefully we can keep the thread alive and get this issue fixed.

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The reason this is being posted in the PvP forum is because of how this issue negatively affects the Republic in ranked warzones, and contributes to why Commandos (and to a lesser extent, Vanguards) are not picked up in ranked warzones.

 

The reasoning behind this is very simple. The entire Bounty Hunter class is stronger than the Republic Trooper counterpart because of the way that the resource system has been handled. The other option is to buff the Trooper, but why give up an opportunity to nerf Mercenaries?

 

The Trooper has high ammo regeneration for 4 ammo, which is 1/3 of the total ammo pool (12).

The Bounty Hunter has high heat regeneration for 40 heat, which is 2/5 of the total heat pool (100).

 

As many people may notice, 1/3 =/= 2/5.

 

As a result, Bounty Hunters have a total of 7 more heat to use. 7 heat is not enough for any ability to be cast, it does allow for easier management of heat. Not to mention that 1 ammo is equal to 8 heat (which favours the Bounty Hunter) unless a direct % comparison is available (33 heat fusion missle, 25 heat flame thrower).

 

Example One:

A Pyrotech Mercenary casts power surge followed by fusion missle. They can then cast rail shot when the GCD is done and be left with 36 heat (0 + 33 = 33, 33 - 5 = 28, 28 + 16 = 44, 44 - 8 = 36) and be in their high heat regeneration zone.

 

Example Two:

An Assault Specialist Commando that casts tech override followed by plasma grenade and then a high impact bolt will be left with 7 ammo (12 - 4 = 8, 8 + 0.6 = 8.6, 8.6 - 2 = 6.6, 6.6 + 1 = 7.6). They would then be in their medium regeneration zone. They would then regenerate 0.36 ammo and be left with 7.96 ammo and be in medium regeneration for another second.

 

These examples do not even touch upon the implications of a longer fight. The reason is that two Bounty Hunter 16 heat abilities = 32 heat, two Trooper 2 ammo abilities = 4 ammo which would equate to 33 heat. This would result in the Bounty Hunter getting more casts in a longer fight using the same rotation. Whilst this would rarely happen in a PvP situation, it is still a factor in the class balance.

 

There are two simple solutions to this mirror class imbalance. The first is to reduce the high heat regeneration zone to 33 heat. The second is to give the Trooper high ammo regeneration until 5 ammo (5/12 ~ 42 heat) which would dramatically improve the discrepancy (2 heat compared to 7). The third solution is to give both classes the same resource system. Since it has not been done in over a year, I doubt it will be done now.

 

EDIT: Thanks to Holmes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btg2ofG7-zM&feature=youtu.be

http://youtu.be/GYvsw8HN654

His two videos to help prove the imbalance.

 

EDIT 2: Dr_Kid's thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5770270#

 

EDIT 3: Dr_Kid's method:

 

 

I thought I'd post this as I play a Commando and I'm sick of Mercenaries complaining when they have it so well off. That, and people seem to be too pre-occupied with bubble stun and smash to even notice this issue.

 

l2p issues

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l2p issues

 

No. This is a "base mechanics" issue.

 

Try the simple test mentioned in this thread.

 

I'll summarize it for you:

  • Take a Vanguard and go to a training dummy.
  • Alternate between Ion Pulse and Hammer Shots.
  • Take note of how many Ion Pulses you can get off before you are out of ammo.
  • Now take a Powertech and do the same alternating between Flame Burst and Rapid Shots.

 

Once you've done that, come back here and tell us how the fact that you can essentially keep firing the above indefinitely as a Powertech and yet run "out of ammo" on a Vanguard is a "L2P" issue.

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Once you've done that, come back here and tell us how the fact that you can essentially keep firing the above indefinitely as a Powertech and yet run "out of ammo" on a Vanguard is a "L2P" issue.

 

Obviously, you should have learned to play a powertech.

 

Duh.

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I think it was cleared up a long time ago that Troopers actually use the same system as the Bounty Hunter and it just has a different visual representation (or vice-versa, I can't remember which).

 

Beyond the fact that one bar goes up and one bar goes down, there is absolutely no difference in numbers or calculations that are going on behind the scenes.

 

No imbalance found anywhere, no fixes needed.

 

No not even close. The merc ammo system is not equal to the commandos not including visually. Mercs ammo DOES factually regenerate at a better rate than commandos. This is fact and has been discussed since launch pretty much its been proven over and over again that there is a considerable difference.

 

That being said. This ammo descrpency only really effects healers since a gunnery commando and its merc counterpart's rotation would not really change. This ammo problem cripples commandos com paired to mercs and makes them the hands down single hardest class to master healing on

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No not even close. The merc ammo system is not equal to the commandos not including visually. Mercs ammo DOES factually regenerate at a better rate than commandos. This is fact and has been discussed since launch pretty much its been proven over and over again that there is a considerable difference.

 

That being said. This ammo descrpency only really effects healers since a gunnery commando and its merc counterpart's rotation would not really change. This ammo problem cripples commandos com paired to mercs and makes them the hands down single hardest class to master healing on

 

The devs did say they use the same numbers basically; but the graphical representation is just different. That said; it sounds like this was a BS answer, but the issue should probably be addressed in a more serious manner that doesn't look like a troll thread by saying "Nerf Mercenaries" in the title.

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Obviously, you should have learned to play a powertech.

 

Duh.

 

There is nothing to learn here.

 

Anyone can use "ability one" then "ability two" then "ability one" then "ability two" until they run out of resources.

 

The problem here is that:

  1. on the Vanguard, you can do the above about 30 times before you are "out of ammo".
  2. on the Powertech, you can do the above essentially forever without "overheating".

 

Since the Vanguard and Powertech are mirrors they should work the same and have the same limitations. This clearly demonstrates that this is not the case.

 

Just try it. Seriously, it doesn't take long to level a toon to level 10. You now even get an experience booster from quests on the starter planets to help you level faster.

 

Do it and test this.

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Videos clearly prove powerteck can do more flamebust then vanguard can do ion pulse.

 

Meet the Developers: Rob Hinkle

What class(es) do you play the most?

 

The classes I spend the most time with are a Lethality Sniper and a Pyrotech Powertech, with the Sniper being my “main.”

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There is nothing to learn here.

 

Anyone can use "ability one" then "ability two" then "ability one" then "ability two" until they run out of resources.

 

The problem here is that:

  1. on the Vanguard, you can do the above about 30 times before you are "out of ammo".
  2. on the Powertech, you can do the above essentially forever without "overheating".

 

Since the Vanguard and Powertech are mirrors they should work the same and have the same limitations. This clearly demonstrates that this is not the case.

 

Just try it. Seriously, it doesn't take long to level a toon to level 10. You now even get an experience booster from quests on the starter planets to help you level faster.

 

Do it and test this.

 

I was attempting to be funny.

 

"You should have learned to play a powertech, instead of a vanguard."

 

Implying that if you had 'learned to play', you would have picked the superior option.

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I was attempting to be funny.

 

"You should have learned to play a powertech, instead of a vanguard."

 

OK. Got it.

 

But,

Implying that if you had 'learned to play', you would have picked the superior option.

ties into:

Since the Vanguard and Powertech are mirrors they should work the same and have the same limitations. This clearly demonstrates that this is not the case.

The Powertech should not be superior to the Vanguard.

 

The fact that the Bounty Hunter, and by extension the Powertech, is superior is what is being debated here.

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Still trying to be funny (but obviously not working out for me).

 

Let me clarify: I agree with the fact that there should be no disparity and that powertechs, for some reason, have it better than vanguards (I play a vanguard, FYI).

 

I was addressing the goof who claimed 'l2p' and was attempting to make a joke based on the topic at hand (by claiming that the l2p issue was a matter of choosing the 'superior' class, not about learning the mechanics of the game). Apparently I am not as funny as I thought I am.

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I see what the OP is saying, but of all the problems merc and commandos have, this has to be last on the list.

 

This actually should be one of the first things addressed imo. I have both a BH and Trooper. If Bioware can't even figure out something simple like this, what makes you think they can figure out anything else reguarding these classes?

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Vanguard use rifles while Powertechs use pistols. The dmg is almost the same but rifles has higher max dmg so Vanguards should be able do do more dmg with some rng?

 

Am I wrong here or...

 

Well... actually... you are wrong. :)

 

Pistols have higher max damage and lower min damage compared to Rifles. As an example, take a look at the Clan Varad Deadly Holdout and the Clan Varad Recon Blaster Rifle. They both drop from Mandalorian Raiders and they are both Rating 64 weapons. The Holdout does 74.0-138.0 damage while the Rifle does 85.0-128.0. The average damage is the same but with some RNG (and shorter fights) the Pistol has the potential to do more damage.

 

While an interesting point to make, (Bounty Hunters have it better again :)), it really makes no difference to the topic in hand which has to do with ammo/heat mechanism and the discrepancy in ammo/heat costs and regen rates of ammo/heat.

Edited by ZeroPlus
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This guy backs up his word with math and in subsequent posts much math backing up the OP word

 

So I will not lol like I initially thought I would when reading the thread title

 

Thankyou have a fine morning, day or evening.

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Vanguard use rifles while Powertechs use pistols. The dmg is almost the same but rifles has higher max dmg so Vanguards should be able do do more dmg with some rng?

 

Am I wrong here or...

 

To tie in with what ZeroPlus has said, the weapon damage is fairly irrelevant half the time. This is because about half (or more, depending on specialisation) of the Trooper's or Bounty Hunter's attacks are Tech, which use the Tech rating on the weapons (which should be the same).

 

This guy backs up his word with math and in subsequent posts much math backing up the OP word

 

So I will not lol like I initially thought I would when reading the thread title

 

Thankyou have a fine morning, day or evening.

 

Thank you for posting your support, I'm glad I was able to convince you of the severity of the situation. The title is a bit of a misdirection, it was designed more for attention (even though the post is about nerfing Mercenaries).

 

I want to urge people that support the ammo and heat equality to post their support, to help get this issue noticed and resolved. If you still do not agree, please post and bring reasoning to back up your claim.

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Hey everyone, apologies for the delay in getting Rob's answers up here. Below you will find his responses to some of your questions.

 

Debaucher:the vast majority of the pvp community that visits the forums feels dissapointed from the lack of replies from the PvP development team. Since you read the forums, would you be kind enouph to start replying to any constructive threads?

 

Rob:

  • I agree, I haven't done a good job closing the feedback loop on the forums and that is something I would like to try to correct.

 

Hopefully, with the developers trying to respond more to PvP oriented issues, this problem can be resolved by a higher authority.

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