Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

Please explore the possibility of adding more utility/group utility to the merc and reverting 3/3 Hired Muscle back to 6% crit, and adding 3% accuracy in addition to 30% arpen for unload/railshot in the talent Advanced Targeting. The reason being that all other classes have high crit chance or auto crits or something else to compensate and have the ability to get high accuracy easy and almost auto crit so they can stack more power.

Please explore the possibility of adding more utility/group utility to the merc and reverting 3/3 Hired Muscle back to 6% crit, and adding 3% accuracy in addition to 30% arpen for unload/railshot in the talent Advanced Targeting. The reason being that all other classes have high crit chance or auto crits or something else to compensate and have the ability to get high accuracy easy and almost auto crit so they can stack more power.

by all other classes you mean Mara/Jugg...........

Merc DPS output is fine, under the right circumstances. The problems come up when good players get smart and realize you cant do squat if they spend 15-30s to kill you, and there is not much you can do to stop them.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559457

 

^ link to our thread in the PTS forum, keep it bumped so devs are forced to see it!

Done. Every Mando/Merc that has not yet dropped the game entirely would do well to bump the thread.

by all other classes you mean Mara/Jugg...........

W.r.t. higher accuracy, the only other subclass in the game that is handicapped into using dual wielding has a talent that increases their accuracy by 30%. Yes, 30%. And yes, that subclass also has additional abilities to help them deal with adjacent melee dps. In contrast Merc dps' low accuracy off hand useage gives adjacent enemy melee dps what amounts to a free Retaliation/Riposte every time it is off CD. This functionally means that when attacked by an enemy melee, the Merc dps is actually harming himself by firing back at the melee. How is it good game balance to have Merc dps' best option when attacked by melee dps to do nothing?

An increase to accuracy tied to a low tier talent that is accessible by both Merc Pyro and Arsenal is badly needed.

W.r.t. higher accuracy, the only other subclass in the game that is handicapped into using dual wielding has a talent that increases their accuracy by 30%. Yes, 30%. And yes, that subclass also has additional abilities to help them deal with adjacent melee dps. In contrast Merc dps' low accuracy off hand useage gives adjacent enemy melee dps what amounts to a free Retaliation/Riposte every time it is off CD. This functionally means that when attacked by an enemy melee, the Merc dps is actually harming himself by firing back at the melee. How is it good game balance to have Merc dps' best option when attacked by melee dps to do nothing?

 

An increase to accuracy tied to a low tier talent that is accessible by both Merc Pyro and Arsenal is badly needed.

You're referring to Mara/Sent. I don't think gunslinger has quite that amount of passive accuracy (though the sharpshooter tree does have several talents which have accuracy attached to cooldowns). We used to have that kind of thing but they gave us armor pen instead. Also wouldn't really help commandos.

Anyway, accuracy is the least of our worries imo >.>

You're referring to Mara/Sent. I don't think gunslinger has quite that amount of passive accuracy (though the sharpshooter tree does have several talents which have accuracy attached to cooldowns). We used to have that kind of thing but they gave us armor pen instead. Also wouldn't really help commandos.

 

Anyway, accuracy is the least of our worries imo >.>

No, the person I was responding to claimed that only Mara/Sent had auto crit bonuses or accuracy bonuses. His statement was factually incorrect.

Accuracy is a problem. It is a problem particularly for Mercs because the low accuracy of thir off hand weapon is giving attacking melee an automatic Retaliation/Riposte practically everytime it is off CD. Commandos in contrast do not have to stack large amounts of Accuracy in their equipment and can instead utilize more Power. BW either needs to increase accuracy via low tier talents or allow Mercs to use a more powerful mainhand weapon combined with a generator. The off hand weapon is a HUGE handicap.

No, the person I was responding to claimed that only Mara/Sent had auto crit bonuses or accuracy bonuses. His statement was factually incorrect.

 

Accuracy is a problem. It is a problem particularly for Mercs because the low accuracy of thir off hand weapon is giving attacking melee an automatic Retaliation/Riposte practically everytime it is off CD. Commandos in contrast do not have to stack large amounts of Accuracy in their equipment and can instead utilize more Power. BW either needs to increase accuracy via low tier talents or allow Mercs to use a more powerful mainhand weapon combined with a generator. The off hand weapon is a HUGE handicap.

Accuracy doesn't compete with power. It competes with surge, and it is possible to get to around DR levels on both.

And again, not the least of our problems if I'm honest.

Accuracy doesn't compete with power. It competes with surge, and it is possible to get to around DR levels on both.

 

And again, not the least of our problems if I'm honest.

Accuracy doesn't compete with power, it competes with surge? On what planet? Any and every stat should be chosen only if it provides more benefits that all of the other possibilities. One does not characterize them into categories and select only one from each category.

Accuracy is a big problem for Mercs. Unlike Commandos who get more burst potential from having a smaller number of bigger damage attacks (greater upside tail probabilities for crit hit benefits), Mercs are saddled with a larger number of low damage attacks. And the larger number of attacks triggers more Retaliation/Riposte opportunities from our main predators - enemy melee dps. This is exacerbated by the low Accuracy of the offhand weapon.

BW needs to improve accuracy by adding it to an existing low tier talent, or allow Mercs to ditch their two pistols for a bigger gun and a generator. The only other subclass penalized with a ranged offhand weapon has a talent that increases Accuracy by 30%. 30%.

Accuracy doesn't compete with power, it competes with surge? On what planet? Any and every stat should be chosen only if it provides more benefits that all of the other possibilities. One does not characterize them into categories and select only one from each category.

 

Accuracy is a big problem for Mercs. Unlike Commandos who get more burst potential from having a smaller number of bigger damage attacks (greater upside tail probabilities for crit hit benefits), Mercs are saddled with a larger number of low damage attacks. And the larger number of attacks triggers more Retaliation/Riposte opportunities from our main predators - enemy melee dps. This is exacerbated by the low Accuracy of the offhand weapon.

 

BW needs to improve accuracy by adding it to an existing low tier talent, or allow Mercs to ditch their two pistols for a bigger gun and a generator. The only other subclass penalized with a ranged offhand weapon has a talent that increases Accuracy by 30%. 30%.

When I say that accuracy competes with surge not power, what I mean is that when it comes to armor modifications, the choice is between Power vs Crit Rating, and Accuracy vs Surge vs Alacrity.

You cannot get a mod with surge or accuracy. You can only get mods with Aim and a certain amount of Power or Crit rating (i.e. the Agile Mod 27 has 56 Aim and 44 Power and another version has 72 Aim and I think 13 Power).

Likewise, with enhancements they all come with a mix of Endurance, Power/Crit Rating, and Surge/Accuracy/Alacrity.

With the exception of Augments, which for Mercs and Commandos should always be Aim augments, there is never a time when you are forced, or even ALLOWED to choose accuracy instead of power. There is never that choice. This isn't a hard concept.

Also you are mistaken when you imply Merc is the only class that has to dual wield but doesn't get a 30% accuracy boos to offhand. As far as I know no class gets that kind of accuracy boost.

In the carnage/combat tree a Mara/Sent can get 3% accuracy if they spend 3 skill points for it, and if they are actually SPECCED into Carnage/Combat and take Ataru form, they get an additional 3% accuracy. That's nothing to sneeze at (though most don't take the full accuracy talent for PVP, and most don't use that spec at all in PVE), but it's a far cry from 30%. The bottom of the tree has a talent that increases offhand DAMAGE by 12%/24%/36%, but that isn't the same thing.

Gunslingers have one talent in the bottom of the Sharpshooter tree which increases accuracy by 3%. Again 3%. NOT 30%. You added a 0 there chief.

For the record, we used to have an accuracy talent. Many mercs were already only taking one point in that talent (with enough accuracy from gear to get near 100% ranged accuracy) in order to put 2 points in First Responder and 2 in Weapon Calibrations (the alacrity talents). The accuracy talent was replaced with the armor pen buff to HiB/RS and Full Auto/Unload, which while we had to regear a little bit lead to a nice DPS increase for most people.

Accuracy isn't the problem you seem to think it is. Aerro seems to do just fine with 99.89% accuracy. ESPECIALLY in PVP where it's not so much that accuracy isn't an issue as it's that we have so many other weaknesses to deal with before we start talking about accuracy for Unload.

I want class fixes as much as anyone, and it's not like I'll say no to an accuracy talent, but lets not sit here and pretend that accuracy, of all things, is where the class is really hurting.

Gunslingers have one talent in the bottom of the Sharpshooter tree which increases accuracy by 3%. Again 3%. NOT 30%. You added a 0 there chief.

 

Accuracy isn't the problem you seem to think it is. Aerro seems to do just fine with 99.89% accuracy. ESPECIALLY in PVP where it's not so much that accuracy isn't an issue as it's that we have so many other weaknesses to deal with before we start talking about accuracy for Unload.

Illegal Mods. 30% boost to Accuracy. In fairness, I incorrectly called it a talent not an ability. But it's there. And it's clearly available for use by the dual wielding player when he gets attacked by an enemy melee so he can avoid triggering Riposte/Retaliation with his offhand weapon. Merc need a similar ability to use in similar circumstances, particularly since BHs lack the same repertoire of tools to keep enemy melee at range.

Admittedly, I haven't touched my Commando since late January, due to the fact that I could see the train wreck that was coming later on. Once people figured out how to play their classes well, especially melee, it was apparent that DPS mercs/commandos would be at the bottom of the food chain.

 

Alas, I was vindicated, and at the present time DPS Mercs/Commandos are still in a bad place in PvP in the 50s bracket. Sure, they can do well in the 10-49 bracket, but that's irrelevant. The real balance should be in respect to the 50s bracket, and the fact is, Mercs/Commandos are severely under performing. They can do well when mostly ignored and allowed to free-cast, but in reality, this is almost never the case unless the opponent you're facing is awful. Any PvP'er worth his salt knows healers are the priority target, closely followed by Mercs/Commandos since they're basically free kills when under pressure. Whenever I log onto my Jugg/Sentinel/Shadow/Vanguard, I always consider Mercs/Commandos free kills, no matter how good the other player is. Some of them can put up a halfway decent fight at times, but even at their best, they can't get me below 40-50% health. It's a sad state of affairs for them.

 

So my question is, when is BW going to address the class? I think most can agree with me that it's in a bad spot. There's plenty of other threads regarding the issue, like this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=541411

 

That thread has hundreds of posts, some of them are pure whines, but many of them are filled with genuinely good ideas to improve the class. Yet, there hasn't been a single post from BW in response to the issue. Surely BW can throw the Mercs/Commandos in that thread a bone? If I were to post about the Coin Shop, I'd get a yellow post in an instant. Yet, this thread has hundreds of posts, but not even one response. What's the deal BW?

 

Merc/Commando damage is, for the most part, in a good place. Damage isn't really the issue. The problem with Mercs/Commandos is their extremely lacking utility/escape abilities. They have no disengage, they have no sprint, they only have 1 knockback, a root that only works in melee range (why?), a mezz (with cast time) on a 1 min CD and a 10m (why?) stun. Mercs/Commandos offer nothing that other classes don't also have, and other classes can do their job better. You don't see DPS Mercs/Commandos in rated warzones, why is that? It's because the other classes offer much more utility and survivability, and overall they do their jobs better.

 

In my opinion, Mercs/Commandos would have a lot less to complain about if they had some additional utility skills. If you parse that thread I linked, I'm sure you could find some gems that wouldn't overpower the class at all. For example, what if Mercs/Commandos gained 3-4 seconds of increased movement speed after using their knockback? What if their knockback also removed any snares they had on themselves? Why can't the root on stockstrike/rocket punch simply be added on to the knockback component it once had? What if unload/full auto was uninterruptible, like Tanksins' telekinetic throw/lightning and Warriors/Knights' ravage/master strike? What if they had a disengage/retreat that would send them back 20-30 meters on use with a cooldown? What if they had some type of sprint likes inquisitors/consulars? These kind of ideas are golden and would help the class immensely.

 

Please BW, I don't play my Commando anymore, but help these guys out and give them some love. I'm starting to feel bad every time I kill them in a warzone, it's just not fair. The class is in need of a much needed boost.

 

P.S. The interrupt you gave them should've been there at release.

 

Edit: Here's a list of good ideas that have been brought up in this thread and others, so that Devs could see them more easily:

nice post mate - I am dabbling in PVP with SENT and DPS COMM and you have given me some knowledge worth knowing - cheers

Illegal Mods. 30% boost to Accuracy. In fairness, I incorrectly called it a talent not an ability. But it's there. And it's clearly available for use by the dual wielding player when he gets attacked by an enemy melee so he can avoid triggering Riposte/Retaliation with his offhand weapon. Merc need a similar ability to use in similar circumstances, particularly since BHs lack the same repertoire of tools to keep enemy melee at range.

Sniper has the same ability, what is the rationale there?

it is for killing tanks.

remember that Commando is going to get the same changes as Merc does, and they have no offhand weapon.

Sniper has the same ability, what is the rationale there?

 

it is for killing tanks.

 

remember that Commando is going to get the same changes as Merc does, and they have no offhand weapon.

They have bigger dmg with less chance to miss.

Good luck getting a buff now that BW has noticed you- BW gave us a thread asking about sorc problems four months ago and there's still not even a fix in the horizon for us (though, they are kind enough to promise us another nerf).

Hopefully though they'll actually give you something- your class is really sucking.

Naturally- just be ready for when marauders cry about whatever you get buffed- because they'll nerf it back in a month.

There is no point arguing about accuracy. You guys are both correct.

Its easy to get enough accuracy, while keeping surge at optimum levels.

Also, our offhand gets an accuracy penalty. Commando does not have an offhand weapon and so does not get a minor penalty. If the classes are supposed to be mirrored, this is one minor discrepancy in favor of Pubs.

Illegal Mods. 30% boost to Accuracy. In fairness, I incorrectly called it a talent not an ability. But it's there. And it's clearly available for use by the dual wielding player when he gets attacked by an enemy melee so he can avoid triggering Riposte/Retaliation with his offhand weapon. Merc need a similar ability to use in similar circumstances, particularly since BHs lack the same repertoire of tools to keep enemy melee at range.

10s of boosted accuracy every 120s. 15% armor penetration too though. I wouldn't mind an actual By God Offensive cooldown, and not just for 50 PVP. Tech Override is kind of a joke if we're honest, at least as an offensive cooldown.

Still you can't really think that a 8.33...% uptime is making the difference between effectiveness and non-effectiveness in PVP.

It's funny, when I look at the list of things we need, minor though many of them are, that I feel we need, I always feel like I'm asking too much. Then I realize what other classes have and then I'm just mad that our class is only half built.

Okay after reading the first 8 pages, is it just me or is everyone who is speaking on this thread that plays a Commando/Merc only talking about only playing Arsenal/Gunnery.....Does Pyrotech/Assault not apply to the much needed changes that this class is deprived of? I have played arsenal in the beta and Pyro for the real thing, All I do is grind valor rank and ranked comms in regular WZ never ranked. As mentioned before who wants a Merc/Commando on their teams if there are other classes that do a better job. Now, in a WZ, I personally feel its all about positioning. You want to park yourself near a wall or something where people really don't notice or pay attention where your blaster fire is coming from. So normally I can melt people in a matter of seconds...Damage is never the issue. Its when the damn lightsabers start pounding my face in. So normally I would knockback (Did I tell that my only gap knockback can be resisted?) electro dart (Now its dart first [possible rocket punch] then knockback). and run behind the corner off heal, and run around again, and try to pull off the bigger heal (Cause you know a hit from someone brings me down to bout 60% hp or less) before I get leap on or interrupted (Usually never works though as the heal takes a few seconds.) The only problem with pillar hugging is eventually you will have made a semi circle and there is a certain part of pillar that you never want to be hugging (the part that is usually exposed in the open where the mesh of players are fighting, I'm thinking voidstar first door sort of thing) The moment I enter that kill zone...well the term speaks for itself, everyone jumps on me and Im down in matter of moments. Now granted "kiting" as pyro is possible, just spamming rapid shots and missile blasts whenever rail shot/thermal/explosive dart/ and a power surged powershot aren't possible, and off healing as much as possible if you can get around corners quick enough. But when you have a melee class that can keep you slowed longer than you can keep them slowed and that can't be removed (And I am suppose to be the kiter class....seem illogical to me) I can't even play the pillar hump game or kite.

Now personally I like being one of the few Warlords with 1390 expertise that still play their merc so I don't want to be OP ever again and have everyone and their sister be playing my class. But I feel like I should have a fighting chance. I am not asking for 1v1 balance either, because I believe that MMOs should revolve around what it stands for, Massive Multiplayer. So that's fine if I can't beat a Mara/Sent, or a Sin/Shade, but I have ZERO fighting chance against any class that isn't the same AC as me...Let me rephrase that, the only time I HAVE a fighting chance against any class that isn't my mirror or the same AC as me is if I have WZ meds, AND WZ adrenals (with the exception of massive caster classes, cause I can poke in and out of LoS on them and burn them down with dots and instant abilities) So if I may, let me share my two cents with what I think is needed to change so I don't become the last one of my kind.

Apologies if I don't mention Trooper abilities here, for I only played merc this whole time.

Commando/Merc all together:

- Disengage (Blast Off term for Merc and Full Retreat for Commandos) - Fly back/sprint(Slide, roll, or whatever seems cooler for troopers I suppose) 30m back firing your weapon at the target (Or to be able to do some instant ability while in the process), making you immune to pulls, snares, and charges for 4secs. 30sec -1min Cooldown. If people feel that, that would be TOO OP, than just let it be a disengage with no immunity. But with a 10sec -15sec Cooldown instead. That way, we get charged, Jet boost, we get charged again Blast Off....seems legit.

- Electro Dart/Stun - 30m

- Power Surge - Allows you to cast/channel an ability while moving for 10secs. 3-5min CD

For Arsenal/Gunnery:

-Rocket Punch - Knock back 10m 4sec root

-Jet Boost - Knock back 20m 2sec root

For Pyrotech/Assault:

(I really only ask for 1 thing here)

-Instant cast Power shot (Powertechs get an instant ability that can take 20% of my health away, and they can spam it. if I am a kiter class shouldnt I be allowed to use at least 1 decent ability that doesn't have a CD on it?) Put it in a talent some where high up in the tree so arsenal or BG can't get it. Or have it become an instant ONLY when you have combustible gas cylinder active, since PTs don't get power shot I don't see it being a problem, and Arsenal and BG use a different cylinder.

Agree or Disagree how you guys see fit, but please avoid trolling, or crying.

There is no point arguing about accuracy. You guys are both correct.

 

Its easy to get enough accuracy, while keeping surge at optimum levels.

 

Also, our offhand gets an accuracy penalty. Commando does not have an offhand weapon and so does not get a minor penalty. If the classes are supposed to be mirrored, this is one minor discrepancy in favor of Pubs.

So do snipers get an accuracy talent? Sniper rifle over duel wielding pistols

I am just wondering. I only played Merc so far.

So do snipers get an accuracy talent? Sniper rifle over duel wielding pistols

 

 

I am just wondering. I only played Merc so far.

Yeah the trees and skills are mirrored. They get a 3% accuracy talent (1% per point) at the bottom of the marksmanship tree, and get Target Acquired at 50 which gives the same 10s of 15% armor penetration and 30% accuracy.

On your other post, a technical critique: Paragraphs are your friend. Big walls of text are kinda....not so enjoyable to read. What I was able to glean was that you were wondering where all the ideas for Pyro/Assault were?

The consensus seems to be that that spec needs less (and thus perhaps should be the target of BW's efforts). I personally think That Charged Bolts/Powershot should have a 3 point talent to proc the Plasma Cell/CGC DoT same as Vanguard/PT. I'd replace the endurance talent personally.

Talk about utility (roots and baseline snares) and finding a way to either negate cast times or interrupts (Charged Bolts/Powershot mostly, though Full Auto maybe as well) definitely applies to the Assault/Pyro tree for Commando/Merc. The ability of CB/PS to reset HiB means we should be using it a fair bit which means the spec suffers from many of the same weaknesses as gunnery. Talk about the need for something to aid in survivability is also applicable. The class is just squishy.

I'd like a talent in the tree that makes CB/PS instant cast but I think the damage would have to take a cut somewhat otherwise it'd have the same problems as instant cast GR/TM and make us a tad OP. Like the other ideas.

So do snipers get an accuracy talent? Sniper rifle over duel wielding pistols

I am just wondering. I only played Merc so far.

Snipers get that same ability. The Accuracy boost isn't as big of an issue for them, but Gunslingers can use it when their pushbacks and roots are on CD and an enemy melee is in their face to avoid triggering Retaliation/Riposte. Mercs need it even more given the much lower ability of the Merc to re-extend range once the melee gets to 4m.

For Pyrotech/Assault:

(I really only ask for 1 thing here)

-Instant cast Power shot (Powertechs get an instant ability that can take 20% of my health away, and they can spam it. if I am a kiter class shouldnt I be allowed to use at least 1 decent ability that doesn't have a CD on it?) Put it in a talent some where high up in the tree so arsenal or BG can't get it. Or have it become an instant ONLY when you have combustible gas cylinder active, since PTs don't get power shot I don't see it being a problem, and Arsenal and BG use a different cylinder.

 

Agree or Disagree how you guys see fit, but please avoid trolling, or crying.

I completely agree with this, and the few other post that mention this, the problem with our survivability is not that we take longer to go down than other class but rather that we can't do dmg while going down.

After playing a vanguard it's apparent that the main thing that makes their dps so high is their ability to get high impact bolt off every 6 seconds basically (lock out time of talent) while commandos/mercs cant do that cause we have a 2 second cast for a 45% chance and a 12 sec cd for a 60% chance to get the proc.

If they really dont want to make power shot an insta cast (it does do about twice the dmg of ion pulse) then a making full auto a 100%(or leave it at 60, not really sure for this one) and power shot a 90% chance to proc HiB could also work as a solution. it conserves the idea of ranged, 2 sec cast (1.5 with talent) is the same as getting two ion pulse off, which pretty much guarantees a proc, (45*2=90). this idea is mainly because it is not impossible to get one power shot off, but when it doesnt proc you basically wasted your time.

ps i know i've mixed in merc and trooper ability names