I agree with Raan, until we have actual parses, saying Range dps > Melee dps is pretty damn stupid.

 

The way I check it is by looking at who picks up threat when the tank loses it. As a slinger I'm happy that I am pretty much the offtank when the tank has to use a taunt on an add or gets immobilized in Karaggas or whatever. My defensive CDs and cover are pretty good to be honest when combined with standing next to a healer for the AOE heals.

Well this HM flashpoint I'm in at the moment I'm spending probably 10x more healing the ranged dps than I am the melee dps.

 

That's just sad, it is LITERALLY the easiest role to play. You only have 2 jobs. Know when to DPS, and know when to back off for a few seconds.

Well this HM flashpoint I'm in at the moment I'm spending probably 10x more healing the ranged dps than I am the melee dps.

 

You can heal a HM flashpoint while browsing/replying to forums?

And yet people complain they cant get groups. Maybe if they would try to take people no matter the class they wouldn't have such a problem getting a group together.

 

And you assume the people complaining about getting groups together are the same people who are filtering out melee dps because...? They happen to post on the same forum?

 

 

Also, melee dpsers can dodge stuff while they attack because most of their attacks are instant. Not so with ranged!

when they make marauders unable to obfuscate operation bosses in 1.1.2 why would anyone bother to bring marauders to ops runs? Edited February 5, 2012 by bigheadbrandon

I haven't done a PuG since someone from the largest PvP guild on my server complained at me for low DPS when he was tanking a HM in greens. I then promptly specced tank and now spank everything my self.

 

PuGs are the worst I have ever seen in this game, honestly, most don't have a clue.

when they make marauders unable to obfuscate operation bosses in 1.1.2 why would anyone bother to bring marauders to ops runs?

 

We will continue to bring 2 - 3 marauders per raid. We had already cleared 16 NM before everybody went crazy with it, so nothing will change for us.

My parser = speed BT runs. I run with a set group of people, with interchanging DPS. All the DPS are guildies from past games (games with combat logs) and I know all of them are extremely competitive and capable in doing DPS.

 

That said, bosses just die faster with Mercs. Sure small things cause some deviations, but I'm 98% positive Mercs **** on everyone else in DPS when they can just stand there and spam (which is most fights including ops). OP class, OP set bonuses, OP resource management (moar crits less heat), OP everything PVE.

Melee is fine. I've cleared all content with a few marauders and an Operative, with an assassin Tank.

 

2 Marauders in an 8 man are pretty wicked since you can stack bloodlusts.

 

 

The Bleed spec is tight in pve.

 

I'd say well geared (min/maxed mod) Marauders are currently the second best consistent boss dps in raids after well geared ( min/maxed power/surge mod) MERC.

 

The idea that snipers were tied with Mercs and doing more dps than Mauraders, I think, is situational. I've noticed Snipers can't deal high amounts of damage for a long period of time like Bleed Marauders can.

 

In my personal opinion, if you arent taking a Marauder with you, at the very least, you are gimping your raid without Bloodlust.

Damn mobile posting Edited February 5, 2012 by Bloodymoon

Good melees do just fine, but if you pug, you cant garentee good. You can look at gears and class. Terrible ranged dps still do fine, most of the time because its easy mode. Terrible melees wipe groups. We ve done everything with melees, but the ones we didnt know usually died over and over... thats all there is to it

Ranged are inherently better than melee in all PVE games simply due to the nature of their short range DPS.

 

In trinity games, like this one, there are far too many "**** you" mechanics for melee that ranged do not have to deal with at all. Cleave comes to mind immediately for example. The tradeoff for this historically was that melee did better damage to make up for less time on target due to constant repositioning, or that ranged could not do strong DPS on the move, evening things out in the longrun. With no combat logs or damage meters nobody knows if this is the case in ToR.

 

Even fights that require 'x' number of people in melee range, ranged dps can just stand in melee. Melee also tends to be more difficult to play in raid encounters, again due to the extra mechanics to dodge, and extra stress on healers if you don't dodge them.

 

As a result, it's just easier to not bring melee if you can help it. I've played melee DPS and Tank in MMOs for years, and been a hardcore raid leader and guild leader, and it's this way in every game. It's probably the worst in Rift, but it's not good anywhere. In fact the phrase "Lolmelee" is often heard in Mumble/Vent in our guild.

 

Generally when making a raid group (assuming we're just talking classes here and not friends or whatever) you bring the absolute minimum number of melee DPS (zero if it's possible) and as few healers as you can afford. More DPS makes every encounter easier, and Ranged DPS > Melee DPS. In TOR I'd take one Sentinel/Marauder for Bloodlust, and all the rest ranged.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Tenthletter

when they make marauders unable to obfuscate operation bosses in 1.1.2 why would anyone bother to bring marauders to ops runs?

 

Really? Why would they do that?

My parser = speed BT runs. I run with a set group of people, with interchanging DPS. All the DPS are guildies from past games (games with combat logs) and I know all of them are extremely competitive and capable in doing DPS.

 

That said, bosses just die faster with Mercs. Sure small things cause some deviations, but I'm 98% positive Mercs **** on everyone else in DPS when they can just stand there and spam (which is most fights including ops). OP class, OP set bonuses, OP resource management (moar crits less heat), OP everything PVE.

 

Honestly this is what it all comes down to, mercs (commandos).

 

Snipers aren't putting out the same damage due to power restrictions. No other class can sit spamming a couple of abilities and drop 3k, 3k, 3k, hits while tossing in a few instants that will pop for 3k or more. They get to avoid 90% of the boss mechanics while at the same time almost never running out of heat (a few small breaks after some loooooong rotations).

 

What would change up things is if there were ranged mechanics added to bosses, complicated ones that forced ranged not just to avoid a brightly targeted spot but to have to move TO a tiny unmarked spot in order to survive like melee have to. Then you will start seeing groups looking for melee classes because the ranged are too dumb to play the tactics in the game.

 

On top of getting massive damage and almost unending resources they gave the core AC healing too, so in certain fights they can stop and fill in to heals themselves and others.

 

I honestly believe this game at one point was designed to be ranged agents, bounty hunters and sorcerer type force users so all of the content was tuned to ranged classes. Even the storyline fights are evidence since many of them aren't even possible to do as melee on the first try since it dumps you from story to fighting too fast. I think melee was an afterthought that was added on top of the current content.

 

There really is no other way to explain bosses that all of the sudden do 360 degree massive melee damage, who knock back only melee, who cc only melee, who insta-gib only melee when enranged, who dump ground aoe's all around them only hitting melee..... If they want to increase melee dps by about 30% then it would be fine considering time off target, till then a group is better off bringing ranged.

I've only read the first page but I see a reacurring theme here. Gary you are obviously confindent in your skills at dps and find yourself a worthy dps slot. I will not contest this. What people are trying to say is something that truly makes sense tho. It is the simple concept of risk/reward.

 

Having a melee in the group has increased risks. They take more damage, need more healing, and severl fights are harder with melees. So you have taken on more risk, what is the reward? It is the same. So who in their right mind is going to take on a melee dps in a pug situation if this is the case.

 

Now you mention that you outperform a lot of other dps classes. I am sure you probably do. But that is probably because of the way you play. You probably run a tight dps rotation and honestly would outperform a lot of other dps players whether you were a sentinal, gunslinger, sage or whatever.

 

You cannot fight this by saying that melee are just as viable because they currently are riskier with lower rewards. Do not fight this because you simply cannot win. What can you do? Join a guild or develope a reputation for yourself with a group that runs HMs. You cant convince people that melee > range but you can convince people that Gary is a smart player and makes mobs and bosses explode.

I've noticed a lot when people are LFM in flashpoints that they're asking for ranged people only. Which is kinda disturbing seeing as its becoming apparent that being melee really has no benefit at all accept for epic storylines and maybe some pvp.

 

Whats the deal? Are melee really all the useless in flashpoints?

 

Don't run with those people. They're trying to make up for their own badness.

 

I'm a sorc healer. Give me a group of full melee every time so I can spam my OP circle.

Really? Why would they do that?

 

Because obfuscate is overpowered as hell and lets you completely ignore boss mechanics like annihilation droid's rocket volley, soa's toss damage, bonethrasher's swipe et cetera?

 

 

If you don't bring marauders to the raid, you:

 

a) Can't get a decent marauder in your guild

b) Your RL is too dumb to realize the buffs and damage that they bring to the raid.

 

 

 

We run two marauders, one in the dps group and one in the tank group, speed buff is huge on most bossfights, and the 15% damage and healing done isn't bad at all,either.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Nessirin

This is a player problem, I play a sentinel and do just fine vs. any ranged class.

 

Yeah I have to be more mobile then them, but I make up for it by having abilities that make me more mobile in the first place vs. the "insert ranged class" that has to change his entire playstyle around when he does get pulled in.

 

This issue has everything to do with people having a misconception that ranged classes will suffer less ae's/trigger less failures when the truth is they are faced with the situation of it happening less often but also have less tools to deal with it at the same time which balances everything out.

 

Players are the ones who created an artificial ranged superiority, bad players on melee toons supplied the fire, but there are bad players at both ranged and meleeand game changes will not help fix that

As a well geared concealment operative, I find the whole range > melee trend of late to be quite amusing. Sadly, until meters are released, melee dps = ranged dps, so the trend will continue, if only for ease of mechanics.

 

Luckily I never have to pug.