I love Star Wars

 

I love Jedi

 

However one thing has always bothered me: Yoda and Obi Wan going into hiding once the Sidious ascended.

 

Granted Yoda went to battle Sidious and was overmatched and Obi bested Vader they reconvene and decide to go thier seperate ways to survive.

 

umm what really?

 

Yoda and Obi-wan are both Jedi Masters...both general's in the clone army and both very experienced leaders and have both trained padawans.

 

Why would they hide? Or at least why would they hide and shut down any opposition to the sith....They basically coward away for 20 years waiting for Luke to find them...instead of finding force sensitives and secretly reestablishing the Jedi order its not like they couldn't hide in the universe...I mean there were thousands of Jedi during the old republic and the entire empire remained hidden....surely 50-60 Jedi could hide on some moon.

 

Just something I have always thought about it seemed out of character for them. Could you imagine Mace going into hiding and just hanging around...or Revan...

They'd have made lousy generals for the rebels in the sense that using their force powers or their mere proximity to Vader would have revealed rebel locations. That and Sideous could cloud their sight into the force. Kenobi was watching over Luke anyhow, and any rumours of him being present at battles would only drive Vader to be more ruthless.

I don't know if coward is the right word. Maybe in some respects. Obi Wan was a type of coward for not finishing Vader, and for not just taking Luke and raising him himself. If he had done that Luke would have been far more capable. I think Yoda pretty much gave up though. Regardless, what they did at the end of episode III was really just a plot device used to make the beginning of episode IV make sense. One thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why they split up. Anakin had just become Vader, and had no power base to speak of really. If they had both gone after the Emperor together they may have stood a chance. Cut the head off the serpent so to speak. He had just established power, and the senate had yet to be dissolved, and he didn't really have an established heir. Bad tactical decision making for the sake of a poetic irony lol

They'd have made lousy generals for the rebels in the sense that using their force powers or their mere proximity to Vader would have revealed rebel locations. That and Sideous could cloud their sight into the force. Kenobi was watching over Luke anyhow, and any rumours of him being present at battles would only drive Vader to be more ruthless.

 

I get Obi wan was watching over luke...but for 18-20 years? and he never took him and trained him? seems like a bad idea.

 

Being at battles would fuel Vader to be more ruthless? So your saying they choose not to rebel for the greater good type idea? interesting...I would still say that is cowardice...surely early after the Empires creation Vader was still vulnerable and Yoda surely could have overcome him with Obi-Wan.

So you want Palps and Vader find them cause recruiting force sensitives in a place attracts attention so this is what would of happened:

 

HoloNet: 2 Jedi Masters and Secret Jedi Academy crushed by Stormtrooper forces.

I don't know if coward is the right word. Maybe in some respects. Obi Wan was a type of coward for not finishing Vader, and for not just taking Luke and raising him himself. If he had done that Luke would have been far more capable. I think Yoda pretty much gave up though. Regardless, what they did at the end of episode III was really just a plot device used to make the beginning of episode IV make sense. One thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why they split up. Anakin had just become Vader, and had no power base to speak of really. If they had both gone after the Emperor together they may have stood a chance. Cut the head off the serpent so to speak. He had just established power, and the senate had yet to be dissolved, and he didn't really have an established heir. Bad tactical decision making for the sake of a poetic irony lol

 

 

I think that Yoda kept Ben away from the Emperor just because when Mace and 3 other masters took on the Emperor, they were all cut down in seconds before Mace could 1 on 1 with him.

 

Cue to Yoda and Ben fighting the Emperor.

 

2 seconds in Ben dies.

 

 

Maybe the laws of the Conservation on Ninjitsu apply to Jedi as well and Yoda knew it?

I don't know if coward is the right word. Maybe in some respects. Obi Wan was a type of coward for not finishing Vader, and for not just taking Luke and raising him himself. If he had done that Luke would have been far more capable. I think Yoda pretty much gave up though. Regardless, what they did at the end of episode III was really just a plot device used to make the beginning of episode IV make sense. One thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why they split up. Anakin had just become Vader, and had no power base to speak of really. If they had both gone after the Emperor together they may have stood a chance. Cut the head off the serpent so to speak. He had just established power, and the senate had yet to be dissolved, and he didn't really have an established heir. Bad tactical decision making for the sake of a poetic irony lol

 

Agreed on all points...its the little things like this that lead me to believe the myth about Lucas knowing the whole story at the start is just a myth. To many little holes.

 

and I agree its not really cowardice but I couldn't find a better word

So you want Palps and Vader find them cause recruiting force sensitives in a place attracts attention so this is what would of happened:

 

HoloNet: 2 Jedi Masters and Secret Jedi Academy crushed by Stormtrooper forces.

 

perhaps but don't they owe the republic to at least try to win? ... yes they were betrayed but they are Jedi they aren't incapable.

-Sidious had demonstrated he was stronger 1v1 than Yoda. Yoda had a responsiblity in surviving so he could train other padawans in the future. He settled on Dagobah because the dark side being strong there, it hid him from Palpatine. (Source: some EU book, don't remember which) Yoda's presence was nulled by the cave, like magnetic stuff they both cancelled each other's presence in the force.

 

-ObiWan was specifically looking after Luke Skywalker. Both he and Yoda knew they needed a Jedi to overthrow Palpatine and neither of them was strong enough to do it.

Yoda and Obi Wan didn't believ in the possibility of Vader to come back to the light side so they needed someone far stronger than they were, and properly trained. which didn't happen, actually, but Vader did come back to the light. Without that, it was game over.

 

Remember for a long time the canon was, there were in the galaxy:

ObiWan, Yoda, Luke and Leia (The "other hope") and that was it. And only the skywalker children were potentially strong enough to defeat the emperor. The horde of force users added by the EU during that same timeframe came long after the movies were filmed and release.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Vaestmannaeyjar

-Sidious had demonstrated he was stronger 1v1 than Yoda. Yoda had a responsiblity in surviving so he could train other padawans in the future. He settled on Dagobah because the dark side being strong there, it hid him from Palpatine. (Source: some EU book, don't remember which) Yoda's presence was nulled by the cave, like magnetic stuff they both cancelled each other's presence in the force.

 

-ObiWan was specifically looking after Luke Skywalker. Both he and Yoda knew they needed a Jedi to overthrow Palpatine.

 

I get this but why then didn't Yoda take Luke with him or Ben? The Jedi always took force sensitives when they were toddlers...why was this different?

surely early after the Empires creation Vader was still vulnerable and Yoda surely could have overcome him with Obi-Wan.

 

Anf, you're implying they could have easily fought back, and actually beat Vader, and/or Sidious 2 on 1. While that is a likely scenario you seem to neglect the fact that they were 2 Jedi's with, quite literally, an entire Galaxy believing them to be enemies, and traitors to the Galactic Empire that they all fought for 3 years to defend.

In no sense could the two of them get easy access to actually engage the Sith.

 

They did not have command of an army, nor access to war ships, or weaponry with enough power to even remotely damage their enemies. In simple terms they were outnumbered, and outgunned.

 

Yoda and Obi-wan are both Jedi Masters...both general's in the clone army and both very experienced leaders and have both trained padawans.

 

True, but after Order 66 was issued, "every single Jedi is now an enemy of the Republic."

 

Why would they hide? Or at least why would they hide and shut down any opposition to the sith....They basically coward away for 20 years waiting for Luke to find them...

 

Ben was always watching over Luke, he didn't find them.

 

instead of finding force sensitives and secretly reestablishing the Jedi order its not like they couldn't hide in the universe...I mean there were thousands of Jedi during the old republic and the entire empire remained hidden....surely 50-60 Jedi could hide on some moon.

 

In the 20+ years following the end of the Clone Wars, Order 66 remained in full effect. Sidious had spies everywhere specifically for the purpose of not allowing a single Jedi to do just that. The majority of the Galaxy all believed Jedi's were enemies of the Empire, you honestly believe 2 guys roaming the Galaxy asking for force sensetives would go unnoticed for over 20 years when everyone was constantly looking for them?

 

The point i see you're trying to make is why did they just roll over, and let the Empire win?

It's simple tactics. They knew the Emperor himself was too strong for them, and they were outnumbered, hundreds of thousands If not millions to one. At that point It's not about fighting back, It's about survival.

 

If they had fought back, the Empire would have killed them both. Then what?

Good question. One logical motive would be to keep Luke ignorant from the force, to avoid an eventual self discovery of who he was and a desire to rush to his father. (Again, deduction from 10+year old EU readings, take it with a grain of salt ^^ )

I look at it this way:

 

The Jedi are often renowned for their insight into the future. Once Sidious revealed himself, he proceeded to decimate the Jedi Order just by his presence. An army wasn't going to be able to defeat him - he would see it coming and maneuver to defeat it before it got too far along (I mean, look at the ending to RotJ - he knew the Rebels were coming for the second Death Star and even planned on it as an example to his power).

 

Yoda and Obi-Wan made a hard choice to do what they thought was best for the future. If they started training Luke too early (and Uncle Owen refused to let Ben anywhere near the boy), Sidious may have found out about the plan and put a stop to it. They had one figurative bullet left in the chamber, and they had to make sure it got where it needed to and trust in The Force to deliver it properly in the end.

 

So they hid away, for the day when Luke (or Leia - once the cat was out of the bag, there was a real good chance the other would be priority-one for the Empire and not be long for the world after) would need Jedi training and philosophy. They did what they could, then trusted in the Force. In the end, it paid off, even though they would both not survive (as anything but a Force Ghost) to see it happen. One more sacrifice of the Order to save the galaxy.

 

As for Obi-Wan not killing Vader when he had the chance... he likely didn't think that Anakin would have survived the severe wounds he suffered. And he was mostly right, as it took some serious cybernetics to get him even moving again, and it did some serious damage to his ability to use and channel The Force. Likely by the time he found out (after making sure the children were split up to protect them and the plan), it was too late to do anything about it without ruining anything.

 

I'm not sure if that makes it cowardice, necessarily. It likely took a lot to let the galaxy think you failed, and that you were all dead, in order to have the one advantage you needed to save it in the end. But at the same time... I don't think I can really call it 'bravery', either. Definately a hard choice.

Out of all the plans they could have come up with they chose poorly. Glad they died

I don't think its fair to consider them cowards. Sometimes the best tactical decision is to retreat and regroup. In this case Obi-Wan was watching over Luke who was in danger of being killed or corrupted by Vader and Sidious. I would say that he was serving the best possible role given the circumstances. In Yoda's case, I can only assume his clairvoyance gave him some indication that hiding was the best option for him, rather than martialing any surviving Jedi. But I would think that doing something like that would put those remaining Jedi at risk and it was safest to stay scattered. It may not have been courageous for Yoda to hide out, but he was also a key source of information about the Force. If he had died a lot of Jedi teaching would have been lost. He had just as much duty to protect that knowledge.

I'm not sure if that makes it cowardice, necessarily. It likely took a lot to let the galaxy think you failed, and that you were all dead, in order to have the one advantage you needed to save it in the end. But at the same time... I don't think I can really call it 'bravery', either.

 

I sure can. They chose to let the Galaxy believe the men who dedicated their lives to protect them were the real enemy, and to let them believe they were killed. All to save them all in the end.

The force told them to wait. If Ben had run, hidden and been living in Tatooine all this time, and had Owen not known Ben lived on Tatooine all this time, then Luke would never have met him, and Ben would never have given him his fathers saber, and Luke would never have been able to go on and....

 

Had Yoda not run away, and spent all his years hiding in a horrible filthy swamp, far below his pay grade, for 18 years, then he would not have been alive to train Luke after Ben had died.

 

Yoda managed to stay alive only just long enough to train him too.

 

This was all foreseen, and they had to be ready. They were not cowards - they each lived for 18 years knowing every day that their friends had died, that the galaxy was living in servitude, and that they could not stop it - except to live this worthless life in squalor, in the hope that the force visions they had would one day come true and they would do their small parts.

my question is, why didnt Ben start training Luke earlier?

 

There is no way he could have been around Luke for 20 years and not feel that he is strong int he force.

 

If he had had even a year of training under Ben, he would have been formidable indeed.

I'm not sure why this needs to be argued. Isn't it obvious that it's a plot device that the third movie crapped out to set up the fourth movie? I would rather try to look at it in a different direction than resort to the canon of the prequels to explain them. It's like the Alien movies. Do you really want to believe anything after Aliens happened? Really? I don't.

 

I think a more logical way would be to consider what did they do in this time period that we don't know about that would make their efforts to fight the empire seem impossible?

 

But in a thread that wants to argue about this or that, my thoughts are probably not going to be desired here, I guess.

my question is, why didnt Ben start training Luke earlier?

 

There is no way he could have been around Luke for 20 years and not feel that he is strong int he force.

 

If he had had even a year of training under Ben, he would have been formidable indeed.

 

AFAIK, Owen was supposed to have told Luke about Ben and his father (Anakin) a lot earlier. However, after having spent years raising Luke as his own son, he didn't really have the heart to do it because he knew the risks involved and that Luke may end up dead after all. It's the same reason he didn't let Luke run off to join the Imperial Naval Academy, as well - he couldn't afford to let him go, when he knew the risks (he wasn't sure that Luke was Force Sensitive, but he knew there was a good chance that he was, and if so, he would likely have ended up dead for all he knew. Palpatine's 'pet' projects weren't known about, just that he had a very open grudge and aggressive policy against people with 'special' gifts. Owen likely got very nervous after hearing that Luke was a good pilot...).

 

He was just trying to protect someone he thought of as his son. This likely worked out in Obi Wan's favor, however, as it gave Luke some very serious motivation to start his training in earnest. Had he actually gotten to him at a younger age, it may well have been like Anakin all over again (being told from a young age he was special, and that he had a much higher purpose then he thought he had).

my question is, why didnt Ben start training Luke earlier?

Perhaps it took Obi-Wan that long to feel that he was ready to take a new apprentice. After all, at the time he gave Luke to Owen and Beru, he had just spent a little over ten years mentoring Anakin, his very first student, and look what happened - Anakin fell to the Dark Side. When Obi-Wan did start teaching Luke, it was out of necessity, because the Rebel Alliance needed General Kenobi, and Obi-Wan couldn't leave Luke on Tatooine without his protection.

Obi Wan "loved Anakin like brother", so he couldn't bring himself to kill him outright. But it looked like Anakin wasn't going to survive his wounds and his "location" on the hill, so he just left.

 

I am reminded of a line from Batman Begins - "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you" - Batman to Roz'Alguld (sp) on the tram near the end of the movie.

 

By the time Obi Wan found out that Anakin had survived, it was too late to do anything about it.

 

Edit: So no, I don't think Obi Wan and Yoda were cowards, they sacrificed themselves (by living the way the did) in order to free the galaxy at sometime in the future (aprox 20 years).

Edited January 6, 2012 by Entilzha

I'm not sure why this needs to be argued. Isn't it obvious that it's a plot device that the third movie crapped out to set up the fourth movie? I would rather try to look at it in a different direction than resort to the canon of the prequels to explain them. It's like the Alien movies. Do you really want to believe anything after Aliens happened? Really? I don't.

 

Argued? I don't think we are arguing about anything were discussing decisions of 2 major characters in SW.

 

 

I think a more logical way would be to consider what did they do in this time period that we don't know about that would make their efforts to fight the empire seem impossible?

 

Well until they fill this time frame in I am forced to assume its what it looked like...hiding.

 

 

But in a thread that wants to argue about this or that, my thoughts are probably not going to be desired here, I guess.

 

Again who is arguing? Why are you in a Star Wars disscussion forum if you don't want to discuss Star wars? Seems to me the thread isn't what is out of place here no offense intended I just mean its a disscussion forum.

 

and Jade I would gladly hear your thoughts on the matter...I think its something that needs to be discussed.

Roz'Alguld (sp)

 

 

Ra's Al Ghul

I get this but why then didn't Yoda take Luke with him or Ben? The Jedi always took force sensitives when they were toddlers...why was this different?

 

The nature of children and visibility.

 

If Obi-Wan had trained Luke on Tatooine, there's no doubt that Luke would have been discovered at some point. Maybe he'd show off his amazing powers to impress a girl, or save a Hutt larva from certain doom in its most desperate hour, never thinking that the whole boy-with-magical-gifts thing would guarantee a few destroyers dropping out of hyperspace on top of the lad's head.

 

Recklessness appears to be a hereditary trait in the Skywalker clan, after all. And Kenobi already has a history of nurturing fraternal relationships when a more paternal role is expected/called for.

 

This doesn't even get into more mystical measures of detection, like the fact that force-users seem to cause detectable ripples that known force-seers, such as Palpatine, would pick up on.

 

 

So, scratch the Obi-Wan thing. Let's give him to Yoda, instead. He's on a nice, isolated planet without other sentients, basically shielded from any probing of the force. There, he could be trained properly. He could, by the time he's a teenager, become a powerful force user. Let's say Yoda picked up a protocol droid, too, so the kid ends up learning to speak Basic properly.

 

So he deals with no one other than a wizened Jedi master and a subservient machine all of his life. The second he jets off of Dagobah to seek out a way to help bring down the emperor, he meets someone who seeks to take advantage of him. Lacking any real, practical social experience, the best we could hope for is that he attempts to 'fix' the offender with the force. Humility, compromise, trust, and understanding the motives of others are subjects that are tricky enough with Jedi. In any isolation/mini Academy/Dagobah scenario, he ends up being even worse in terms of social adjustment than his father, and an even easier pawn for the Emperor.

 

 

Having a hard, but not cruel childhood and having a teacher ready to jump in and rapidly bring him up to speed when he could be taught rapidly was probably one of the best options. At least as far as the goals of the Jedi are concerned.