Title.

 

Requiring 1/8 and 1/16 for most of the OPS content while at the same time using a 1/4 ratio for Flashpoints should have been an obvious warning flag early on. The size of groups should scale a little better so that the population has a better supply of experienced tanks and healers. It doesn't need to scale directly with 4 man groups, but any increase is an improvement. This will be less of a problem when dual spec'ing comes out, but overall more interesting content could be designed with using more tanks in mind.

Less tanks per Ops group means more groups over-all allowing more dps and heals into ops groups.

 

Seriously, read between the lines of your own post and you'll see that all you're saying is:

"I don't want to start my own Ops groups and the Ops groups that're starting already have their Tanks, so I'm going to go cry about it on the forums instead of actually doing something about it myself".

Less tanks per Ops group means more groups over-all allowing more dps and heals into ops groups.

 

Seriously, read between the lines of your own post and you'll see that all you're saying is:

"I don't want to start my own Ops groups and the Ops groups that're starting already have their Tanks, so I'm going to go cry about it on the forums instead of actually doing something about it myself".

 

While theoretically this sounds good. It never works this way in reality. Its been a mistake in virtually every mmo.

 

In realty the lack of ops positions causes people to reroll dps. Which then results in a lack of heroic casual tanks. So then 4person heroics are constantly LF tank.

How about do the math. If Tanks start the game knowing that 3/4 of them are going to be sitting on the bench once they reach op level, there's less incentive to level as one. Then you get a horrible imbalance of DPS/Heals to tanks, and have a hell of a time doing FPs.

 

As it is, I OT ops, and that largely consists of Ad duty, and dealing with a steady stream of 'what do we need you for' jokes, which are wearing thin. Fun times...\sarc

Edited February 11, 2012 by NemeirNyyx

Dual spec is being designed now, so no one will be stuck in one role or have to go through the hassle and cost of changing every time they find a group.

What derp of a moderator moved a PTR suggestion regarding 16 man operations to the PvP forum? Your incompetence is astounding. Whatever idiot hired the idiot that moved this topic is a perfect example of why Bioware and EA need to get out of the MMO business. You have no idea how to deal with your customers after you sell them the steaming pile of beta you call a game.

 

Unsubbed.

What derp of a moderator moved a PTR suggestion regarding 16 man operations to the PvP forum? Your incompetence is astounding. Whatever idiot hired the idiot that moved this topic is a perfect example of why Bioware and EA need to get out of the MMO business. You have no idea how to deal with your customers after you sell them the steaming pile of beta you call a game.

 

Unsubbed.

 

How entertaining that your guild's name is "Committed."

Wow.... GG Bioware CS reps moving this here, LOL.

 

But I feel you man, totally agree with you... I complain about it every day in guild chat.

 

I wanted to tank.

 

I levelled as a tank.

I did all my flashpoints as a tank.

When I hit 50 I ground my dailies and HM flashpoints, getting tank gear.. tanking all along.

 

I join a raiding guild.

 

Wow.. the Ops only require 1, maybe MAYBE two tanks VERY RARELY... two guild leaders are tanks... okay.

 

I have to respec DPS for a raid slot.

At first it wasn't bad, I could respec back and tank heroics the first couple of days.. but once the respec cost gets up to 100k NO MORE TANK ANYONE ALL WEEK HAHA

 

All day long all I see in general is "LFG (insert whatever here) HM, Need 1 more TANK!" And say to my self "God damn you bioware, why did you design the raid encounters to only require one tank when you have 4 man flashpoints?"

 

Another problem that comes from this issue; Guilds have no real community building activities to do. What happens is a clique forms with the tanks that are always running HMs.. After raids there's no tanks available to break off and go run some hard modes together.. or on off nights to run hard modes together....

 

It's just a mess altogether.

How entertaining that your guild's name is "Committed."

 

Thinking the same thing.

 

 

But either way, since it's here, I agree with the OP.

 

it should be the same ratio across the board, otherwise you'll just end up with a huge shortage of dps in ops and an excess of tanks in fps

I agree just for the fact that my tank buddies either get left behind or semi handicap the ops group when they come along. sucks to decline them because we already have our 1 tank

How entertaining that your guild's name is "Committed."

 

Thinking the same thing.

 

Yes it is very amusing.

Wow.... GG Bioware CS reps moving this here, LOL.

 

But I feel you man, totally agree with you... I complain about it every day in guild chat.

 

I wanted to tank.

 

I levelled as a tank.

I did all my flashpoints as a tank.

When I hit 50 I ground my dailies and HM flashpoints, getting tank gear.. tanking all along.

 

I join a raiding guild.

 

Wow.. the Ops only require 1, maybe MAYBE two tanks VERY RARELY... two guild leaders are tanks... okay.

 

I have to respec DPS for a raid slot.

At first it wasn't bad, I could respec back and tank heroics the first couple of days.. but once the respec cost gets up to 100k NO MORE TANK ANYONE ALL WEEK HAHA

 

All day long all I see in general is "LFG (insert whatever here) HM, Need 1 more TANK!" And say to my self "gosh darn you bioware, why did you design the raid encounters to only require one tank when you have 4 man flashpoints?"

 

Another problem that comes from this issue; Guilds have no real community building activities to do. What happens is a clique forms with the tanks that are always running HMs.. After raids there's no tanks available to break off and go run some hard modes together.. or on off nights to run hard modes together....

 

It's just a mess altogether.

 

Particularly regarding the part about hard mode flashpoints, this is a major concern of mine. I am the main tank of our raid force and often find myself spread too thin. While we have the majority of attendees in Rakata equipment, there are those that need Columi to fill in the weak spots. And as much as guild master attempts to relieve the pressure from myself and /or another tank so that we do not have to constantly do stuff (or come on line), one still feels a sense of duty.

 

So after sixteen man nightmare, I then get to go do several HM flashpoints for a few hours right afterwards.

 

The obvious 'solution' is to bring in and train up more tanks, but then..operations only need one tank(occasionally two) thus I'm going to be out of a job, or we have to rotate tanks - which wouldn't have been an issue in the first place if the flashpoints weren't still being done, and the reason we're still doing flashpoints is because the loot tables and drops are horrific in the game, and the reason we notice it so much is because we have like five of the same damage class in the raid and yet nothing drops for them, and the reason we have five damage dealers is because we don't need more than one tank!

 

God I said it in Beta and here it is again..when you make an MMO, STOP COPYING and CLONING THE BAD STUFF FROM OTHER GAMES.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Ranebow

Our guild has this issue when starting Ops now: we have way too many tanks.

 

It's also quite natural: a lot of the most popular classes (Jedi Guardian / Shadow) have the ability to tank and the tanking spec is very easy to level up in, as you have pretty much no downtime with a healing companion.

 

Ops should at least require an offtank to be present, this would give someone else than the tanks who have already been appointed by the guild at the start of their career in TOR to try their hand, and it will allow BW to design some new and challenging mechanics around that.

 

The other solution is to allow an easy dual spec switch.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

Dual spec is not the answer to this particular problem. I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm playing a tank it's because I want to PLAY A TANK. If I had wanted to be DPS, I would have rolled as one.

 

Then there's the gear. Even if I'm willing to swap to a DPS spec just to raid, you can be damn sure I'm going to want tank gear when it drops. Because I'm playing a tank. And why would a guild want a "DPS" person in tank gear, when they can get a real DPS person in DPS gear?

 

So now I'm playing a role I don't want to play, and I'm not as good at it as people with more appropriate gear. What now? Should I take both tank and DPS gear, so I have a set of each? I'm sure no one would have a problem with that.

 

Dual spec may help with some issues, but not this one.

also. from a tank perspective... WE NEED A CHALLENGE!

I just don't get the feeling a boss in any ops could kill me unless it enrages tbh... even when i'm wearing dps gear i can hold a boss no problems if had to -,-

 

I joined a guild as a tank, went in as an off-tank and spend most of my days dpstonking on the side in dps gear... this makes no sense to me, where is the real threat of death in this game? Honestly, I can see my guilds lack of progress is mainly due to either bugs or people that are too reliant on deadly boss mods (RUN AWAY LITTLE GIRL!)

 

what makes it worse is that there tends to be just one fight that needs 2 tanks. Problem with these 2 tank fights is they still use the 1 tank mechanic... without any threat of death a tank just has to stand there facerolling through the rotation poping cd's every now and then (and popping cd's is just for the sake of pushing a different button). Bone Thrasher in KP is an un-tankable dps race, ***? go respec or sit out for one fight and then it's straight to Jarg and Sorno, a 2 tank fight -,-

 

I want some bosses that can lay down some serious defence reducing debuffs on the tank requiring a tank switch at the penality of 1shot death, even some adds that roll in and cause enough damage to require a tank to pick them up and hold them to the side would be nice.

 

right now it feels like the Bioware are relying too much on enrage timers as the only real challenge, with the way operation boss mechanics work, I find hardmode flashpoints far more enjoyable as a tank : /

What derp of a moderator moved a PTR suggestion regarding 16 man operations to the PvP forum? Your incompetence is astounding. Whatever idiot hired the idiot that moved this topic is a perfect example of why Bioware and EA need to get out of the MMO business. You have no idea how to deal with your customers after you sell them the steaming pile of beta you call a game.

 

Unsubbed.

 

ROFLMAO

oh noes they moved a thread...and you unsubbed for that ????

I have to agree with the OP. If the design for a 4-man group is 1 tank, 1 heal, 2 DPS (which it is for a solid HM/NM FP group) then you need to extend that pattern logically up through the OP's tier.

 

Part of the problem is the group size itself is just too small to allow for a lot of variation and groups/guilds tend to simply throw DPS at any problem they have while engaging content so it rapidly fills the limited space with 'more DPS'. Perhaps there will be some better designed content coming down the line that helps break out of the mold and allows for more variation at end game.

 

Here's to hoping.

My guild runs ops with one tank and one tank-able class(i.e. jugg/powertech/assassin) who has a full set of tank gear. So there's people out there who CAN tank, but just don't have to for ops. In 16s, we'll run with the same setup, mainly because we can't afford the loss of dps when starting on HM/NM, and by the time the group is fully geared and screaming content for farm purposes, it just seems pointless to change the habit.

 

The bigger problem is the lack of appeal that HM FPs have for people who run ops. It's pointless for those of us in full Rakata to run HM FPs because the "reward" are commendations for pieces that would be downgrades, even for our offsets. If they would change columi/tionese commendations to "Heroic Commendations" or the like, and drop the crystal thing(which is pointless imo) and allow some columi and all tionese to be bought with said commendations while the rest drops from NM Ops, then you would have more people wanting to run FPs.

 

Some of the pseudo-offtanks(i.e. dps jug/pt/sin with tank gear) probably don't realize they could easily tank HM FPs in dps spec with tank gear, nothing in FPs is so crazy to REQUIRE tank specs.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Skodar

Wow.... GG Bioware CS reps moving this here, LOL.

 

 

Just keep making a new one in the forum that you like. All they can do is give you infractions which means NOTHING. I had over 10 before the forum wipe and I think 3 right now and it means nothing.

Edited February 11, 2012 by xioix

We've only done EV so far, Kragga tonight for the first time, but EV seems fine with two tanks.

 

1st boss: tank on each turret. Not required but nice to have.

#2: lava guys adds. Again not required but handy.

#3: pylon puzzle. Not sure how you do this with one tank.

#4: solo bosses. There are two assassin that are much easier as a tank. Again not required. Any well geared class can take them out.

#5 Soa: two tanks means a bad luck mind trap doesn't equal a wipe.

 

So while two tanks isn't required its certainly "designed" for two.

How about do the math. If Tanks start the game knowing that 3/4 of them are going to be sitting on the bench once they reach op level, there's less incentive to level as one. Then you get a horrible imbalance of DPS/Heals to tanks, and have a hell of a time doing FPs.

 

I find the math of that extremely difficult to believe. If only 1 tank is needed for ops, then the other tanks, instead of sitting on the bench, should be running heroics and other things to train themselves to be better than the tank doing the Operation. Seriously, Ive been through that, and all i did when i logged on to play was practice tanking. And now i have the top spot in my guild for tanking. If the tank doesn't have the chops to tank something, then they should work on getting better. Practice makes perfect.

 

Also if you are complaining enough about this being the case in game then everyone probably has you on ignore, which is another reason why you cant find a tank.

 

BKN

The bigger problem is the lack of appeal that HM FPs have for people who run ops. It's pointless for those of us in full Rakata to run HM FPs because the "reward" are commendations for pieces that would be downgrades, even for our offsets. If they would change columi/tionese commendations to "Heroic Commendations" or the like, and drop the crystal thing(which is pointless imo) and allow some columi and all tionese to be bought with said commendations while the rest drops from NM Ops, then you would have more people wanting to run FPs.

 

 

Well, the difficulty progression is borked. It should be quest->FP->HM FP-> OP ->HM OP and so on. But normal operations are so easy you can can fresh 50s and be 4/5 EV straight away.

We've only done EV so far, Kragga tonight for the first time, but EV seems fine with two tanks.

 

1st boss: tank on each turret. Not required but nice to have.

#2: lava guys adds. Again not required but handy.

#3: pylon puzzle. Not sure how you do this with one tank.

#4: solo bosses. There are two assassin that are much easier as a tank. Again not required. Any well geared class can take them out.

#5 Soa: two tanks means a bad luck mind trap doesn't equal a wipe.

 

So while two tanks isn't required its certainly "designed" for two.

 

The problem is that its much easier with another dps instead of a tank. With the guild Im running ops with we are either wiping due to bugs or hitting the enrage. The droid puzzle boss in Kragga might need 2 tanks though, havent beaten him yet.

LF Tank is becoming more and move common and lasting longer and longer. At first I thought that was awesome. I'm a tank, more opportunities for me. WRONG. The only people LF Tank are people doing flash points. All the raids have their 1 tank already, meaning I can NEVER hope to pug a Op, ever. That's BS. So you're telling me if I don't form my own personal operations team I can never do ops without respeccing? You're forcing me into a role I didn't design this character for. In fact, since you've also intentionally made all operations better for ranged than you did for melee, respeccing DPS doesn't even get me anywhere. All ops want ranged DPS, so I'd have to reroll an entirely new class just to get an ops slot as DPS. GJ, Bioware. -100 more cool points.

You can do both operations with 2 tanks just fine, but you should always keep dps gear as a tank. This is nothing new to MMOs, and if you want to be "tank only, never dps" then you better find yourself a guild to be the MT of (that's going to be pretty hard to do without making your own guild btw). If you want to PUG your operations, then you better be versatile. It's not different than anything else in life, the more you can offer the greater your chances of getting into the raid and once in the raid, the higher your raids success will be if you can fill any gaps.

 

I've done both EV and KP pugs on normal mode. If you have 4 good dps (they don't have to be amazing), then you can breeze through both instances with 2 tanks. Early on, when lots of people were undergeared, the low DPS really hurt us on Soa when we had the 2nd tank doing almost no damage, so I typically ran a hybrid tank/dps spec and just swapped gear when appropriate. This week, we had 2 dedicated tanks (myself being one of them) in full tank specs and gear and still breezed through all of KP.

 

PUGing is always, and will always, be at the whim of those who make the groups. If you can't get into a group, then you have to make your own. It's not the game or the other players fault that they don't have a spot for you, and even if every fight and trash pull required 2 tanks, there's no guarantee they would then either. Bringing a bad tank is disastrous for a raid, and as such those that organize PUGs often find tanks they know beforehand to avoid such issues. Whether that's 1 or 2 doesn't really matter.