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Dread Guard Relic BiS?


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(my main sits at 1529 divided as 552/510/467 and is ideally balanced to within 0.0044%).

 

Could you explain this a bit more.

 

IMO you have 100 less def and 100 more absorb you get a better stats distributions(assuming we are talking about shadow/assassin)

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Hmmm... I get 87.5 power averaged. Either way, when added to the passively itemised 47 power on the relic, that is greater than 120, no?

 

I think Ask Mr Robot hasn't updated yet (I haven't had a chance to log in since the patch dropped). In that case, the DG relic *is* superior to the EWH relic.

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Could you explain this a bit more.

 

IMO you have 100 less def and 100 more absorb you get a better stats distributions(assuming we are talking about shadow/assassin)

 

These numbers include an Exotech stim, since I always have one running. They also account for the effects of the proc absorb relic, which slightly deflates the value of the absorb stat. Also note that I do take the defense talent, which slightly increases the value of the defense stat.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Also note that I do take the defense talent, which slightly increases the value of the defense stat.

 

Why would this be true? IIRC, the defense talent does not increase your defense rating by 2%, it gives a flat 2% bonus to your defense chance. This would mean that it has no affect on the diminished return on your defense rating, therefore not decreasing the value of the defense stat.

 

This same holds true for crit chance % increase talents, which is why I do not like it when people advise DPS to "get your crit to 30% unbuffed". Crit and defense stacking should be based off of ratings, not percentages.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Hmmm... I get 87.5 power averaged. Either way, when added to the passively itemised 47 power on the relic, that is greater than 120, no?

 

It's 134.5 power to be exact without augment making it more power ovrr the long haul then war hero. It is better than war hero. LagunD has a huge break down on adrenal and inspiration scaling with on use relics proving that their bonus is amplified compared to war heros. The increase on use power and its passive power send it over war heros for pve. His works and findings can be found diggin in the sentinel and murader forums. It's quite intensive. Make no doubt, dg boundless ages beats out war heros, for now....

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As a Guardian Tank Right now I use

 

Endurance Augmented War Hero Imperiling Serenity

Endurance Augmented Dread Guard Relic of Shield Amplification

 

They do seem like they are BiS but I'm still wondering if instead using 2nd Imperiling Serenity will be better. Some also use Shield Amplification for some fights and Serenity for another.

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I appologise in advance if this info is wrong. I've been up all night hoping that MOX don't beat us to a world first kill. So i'm tired.

 

Ok.

To prefice this i need to explain that AMR has not yet updated the dread guard relics with the static power addition. The DG proc relic is also bugged and therefore should not be imported into simcraft.

To work around these issues i simply used the campaign versions and added the stats that are live in-game.

 

I'll only cover Hybrid here, but if you want i can do the same for the other two specs.

 

1DG "internal proc" + 1DG power "on use": 1880dps

1DG "internal proc" + 1WH power: 1866dps

1DG power "on use" + 1WH power: 1855dps

2WH power: 1845dps

 

As you can see using 1 each of the DG relics comes out on top.

But you need to understand that this is just simulating a standard patchwerk-style fight, with no boss mechanic factors taken into account. The "on use" power relic is even stronger than these stats show, because of the possibility of multiplyers within the fight. Timing this relic with inspiration and adrenals to say the least would greately increase its benefit to your overall dps. Using the "on use" relic advances the potential for a higher dps max.

 

Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/39ba1319-2a79-4883-92bb-31164a43bb59

 

Code Changes:

Before:

relic1=campaign_relic_of_dark_radiance,ilevel=61,quality=artifact,stats=96endurance_18willpower,equip=ondamage_184internal_30%_4.5cd

relic2=campaign_relic_of_boundless_ages,ilevel=61,quality=artifact,stats=96endurance_18willpower,use=315power_120cd_30dur

 

After:

relic1=campaign_relic_of_dark_radiance,ilevel=61,quality=artifact,stats=96endurance_18willpower_47power,equip=ondamage_210internal_30%_4.5cd

relic2=campaign_relic_of_boundless_ages,ilevel=61,quality=artifact,stats=96endurance_18willpower_47power,use=350power_120cd_30dur

 

As you can clearly see, i added the static power for each relic and adjusted the values for the proc amount and "on use" power gain.

 

/Elidhu

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Why would this be true? IIRC, the defense talent does not increase your defense rating by 2%, it gives a flat 2% bonus to your defense chance. This would mean that it has no affect on the diminished return on your defense rating, therefore not decreasing the value of the defense stat.

 

This same holds true for crit chance % increase talents, which is why I do not like it when people advise DPS to "get your crit to 30% unbuffed". Crit and defense stacking should be based off of ratings, not percentages.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

This is absolutely true. However, a static increase in defense chance still affects the value of defense rating (even outside of DR) in the sense that the same defense rating boost results in a larger percentage improvement in damage mitigated. For example, imagine we have a defense chance of 20%. An addional 1% from rating gives us a 1.25% boost to mitigation (ignoring shield and armor for now). However, if we add the defense talent, our base moves up to 22% and an additional 1% from rating nets us a 1.28% boost.

 

Thus, the defense talent does increase the value of defense rating, albeit very slightly.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I'll only cover Hybrid here, but if you want i can do the same for the other two specs.

 

1DG "internal proc" + 1DG power "on use": 1880dps

1DG "internal proc" + 1WH power: 1866dps

1DG power "on use" + 1WH power: 1855dps

2WH power: 1845dps

/Elidhu

 

Does simucraft show you what the average damage done by the internal proc relic is?

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Hello all! I am Dack from MMO-Mechanics. I wrote the analysis on the War Hero Relic of Boundless ages vs. the Campaign Relic of Boundless Ages here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1024-page-11.html

 

I just finished the Analysis of the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1024-post-24331.html#pid24331

 

Look for the post made by Dack.

 

The results come out that the BiS are the Dreadguard Relic of Boundless Ages and the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest (that's right, kinetic, not elemental)

 

DoT specs benefit more from the proc relics, but non-DoT specs still have the same BiS results.

Thank you :)

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And therein lies the problem: there is no boss in current content which hits that hard. None. (I haven't finished parsing out NiM EC yet, but preliminary numbers still look well shy of NiM KP) In reality, the steady-state damage is about half that, with rare spikes that are much higher. If damage numbers were as high as you assume, then I fully agree that the self-heal is a poor substitute for more mitigation. Damage numbers are simply not that high (remember: wet noodle).

 

Your assumed balance of KE to IE damage is also quite far from the mark. Only 9.41% of damage is IE, which really isn't that much.

 

Finally, I'm not really following the expressions you give at various stat budgets. Could you explain your numbers a bit more? Also, your shield/absorb/defense ratios look quite off across the various stat budgets (my main sits at 1529 divided as 552/510/467 and is ideally balanced to within 0.0044%).

 

Are you saying that there are no bosses that have more than 10% internal/elemental damage? In that case you would have sometyhing like:

 

1600) 0.3636*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2215

1700) 0.3522*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2146

 

now to explain the numbers:

247/6 is the heals from the combat stance

(.02*HP*3)/15 is the heals from 3 stacks FL/TT self heals

515/25 is the heals from the relic

 

now we compute for 2000 dps

 

1600) 2000*0.2215-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=273 dps taken

1700) 2000*0.2146-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 284 dps taken

 

In this case the healing relic is better than the extra mitigation. However, if incoming damage reaches N such that

 

.2146*N-247/6-(1/15)*(0.6e-1*26000) = .2215*N-247/6-3*(0.2e-1*27000)*(1/15)-515*(1/25)

 

then 1700 buget is better... this N is 3565.

 

The stat weights I use are based on 1/2 90% accuracy and 1/2 100% accuracy, even though this number is not true around the board, I think it helps create a balanced build.

 

To determine optimal stat weights I used the following formula:

 

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+15+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+20+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):

> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

 

where d90 is the defence chance from 90% accuracy attacks

d100 is defense from 100% accuracy attacks

the +46 defense rating is there for rakata stim

 

the equation for squishiness (without armor and resists) is; ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))

 

where ac90 and ac100 is the fraction of attacks that are 90% and 100% accuracy.

 

I use the method of lagrange multipliers to find the 3 points for defensse absorbtion and shield to minimize the squishiness function.

 

In maple:

 

with(Student[MultivariateCalculus])

LagrangeMultipliers(ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr)), [abr+dr+shr-N], [dr, shr, abr])

 

where N is the total stat budget you hvae for shield+defense+absorb (in rating).

Edited by dipstik
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Are you saying that there are no bosses that have more than 10% internal/elemental damage? In that case you would have sometyhing like:

 

1600) 0.3636*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2215

1700) 0.3522*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2146

 

now to explain the numbers:

247/6 is the heals from the combat stance

(.02*HP*3)/15 is the heals from 3 stacks FL/TT self heals

515/25 is the heals from the relic

 

now we compute for 2000 dps

 

1600) 2000*0.2215-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=273 dps taken

1700) 2000*0.2146-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 284 dps taken

 

In this case the healing relic is better than the extra mitigation. However, if incoming damage reaches N such that

 

.2146*N-247/6-(1/15)*(0.6e-1*26000) = .2215*N-247/6-3*(0.2e-1*27000)*(1/15)-515*(1/25)

 

then 1700 buget is better... this N is 3565.

 

The stat weights I use are based on 1/2 90% accuracy and 1/2 100% accuracy, even though this number is not true around the board, I think it helps create a balanced build.

 

To determine optimal stat weights I used the following formula:

 

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+15+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+20+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):

> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

 

where d90 is the defence chance from 90% accuracy attacks

d100 is defense from 100% accuracy attacks

the +46 defense rating is there for rakata stim

 

the equation for squishiness (without armor and resists) is; ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))

 

where ac90 and ac100 is the fraction of attacks that are 90% and 100% accuracy.

 

I use the method of lagrange multipliers to find the 3 points for defensse absorbtion and shield to minimize the squishiness function.

 

In maple:

 

with(Student[MultivariateCalculus])

LagrangeMultipliers(ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr)), [abr+dr+shr-N], [dr, shr, abr])

 

where N is the total stat budget you hvae for shield+defense+absorb (in rating).

 

You have the wrong expression for the FL/TkT heal. Specifically, that ability ticks four times for a total of 8% of max HP. Correcting that expression yields a result of 237.233 with the heal proc relic and 249.367 for the added mitigation budget. 2000 is about the mean DPS for HM EC/TfB, so that's a pretty good benchmark.

 

However, there are a couple things you need to take into account. Your squishiness result is far, far lower than I can achieve. At a stat budget of 1526 and using the proc absorb relic, my optimized weighted squishiness is 0.3693. That is using the following weighting:

 

  • m/r+k/e : 71.80%
  • f/t+k/e : 18.78%
  • f/t+i/e : 9.41%

 

Thus, I strongly suspect that your formulae are inflating the value of mitigation stats by quite a bit. You are definitely weighting defense more highly than I do (by factoring in accuracy as a straight addition to the defense chance), but I need to do some serious combat log perusal before I can conclude anything about that. My formulae may simply be wrong here.

 

In any case, the conclusion stands that the heal proc relic is still (currently) better than an additional 100 stat points. Once bosses reach a damage value sufficient to flip the numbers, we can reevaluate. At that point though, we will have bigger problems with the self-heal as a general mechanic.

 

I don't have full damage numbers yet for NiM EC, but preliminary results suggest that damage was buffed by about 15%. That puts average pre-mitigation boss DPS at 2300 in NiM EC/TfB, which is still *far* below the tipping point on the self heal relic. It is worth noting that NiM KP is already above the tipping point, with an average DPS of 3991. I don't consider that op to be current content, and we already knew that shadows/assassins had balance issues when tanking those bosses.

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I do appreciate this type of analysis having a civil back and forth discourse with the mathematical rigor behind our staements being transparent. The philosophy behind assuming 50/50 between accuracy and kinetic/elemental is to create a build that is well rounded for any encounter you might face (some bosses have all/no tech and some bosses have all/no elemental). Obviously there is an optimum build for each boss if you take their accuracy into account, however, you cant really build to compensate for internal/elemental... except for having a HP/heals build over a mitigation build.... which is still a rich debate.

 

i still think that the 85% downtime of the healing relic, as well as the overheal, are somewhat good arguments against using it.

Edited by dipstik
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I do appreciate this type of analysis having a civil back and forth discourse with the mathematical rigor behind our staements being transparent. The philosophy behind assuming 50/50 between accuracy and kinetic/elemental is to create a build that is well rounded for any encounter you might face (some bosses have all/no tech and some bosses have all/no elemental). Obviously there is an optimum build for each boss if you take their accuracy into account, however, you cant really build to compensate for internal/elemental... except for having a HP/heals build over a mitigation build.... which is still a rich debate.

 

I think it is an interesting question, trying to optimize for any encounter you might face. That's actually precisely why I use the mean damage output of each type to compute weightings. Thus, I sum up all m/r+k/e damage, all f/t+k/e damage, etc. The resulting weightings produce a build which is overall optimal, but sub-optimal on a per-boss basis. Sub-optimally on a per-boss basis is unavoidable without regearing between each fight, so I'm not sure it's worth dwelling too much on this inevitability.

 

Most bosses do stay fairly close to the mean in terms of damage types. There are some outliers, like Soa and Kephess v2, but those are exceptions. So, it seems that optimizing for the mean is unlikely to yield results that are *too* far from optimal on a per-boss basis.

 

i still think that the 85% downtime of the healing relic, as well as the overheal, are somewhat good arguments against using it.

 

Downtime seems like a valid argument to me. It definitely results in a far spikier survivability profile.

 

However, overheal is a non-issue for the same reason that overheal on a self-heal can be discarded, at least as far as mitigation is concerned. The reason for this is that overheal on a self-heal is exactly the same as a healer overhealing on the tank. Think about it. If the tank has 2% less mitigation and proportionally more self-heal, there is no difference in the amount of output required from the healer for the tank to stay neutral. If the healer makes no changes, the self-heal will have 0% overheal. However, if the healer increases output to a higher level, they may not see overheal in their own logs, but the self-heal overheal will rise significantly. This is unnecessary healing, since the self-heal would have earned that HP back, given the chance. Thus, it is exactly the same as healer overheal and should be counted as such.

 

For this reason, I think we are justified in counting the self-heal towards survivability in the same fashion as mitigation, without deflating to adjust for potential overheal. This counts for the healing relic just as it counts for the conventional self-heal.

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Hello all! I am Dack from MMO-Mechanics. I wrote the analysis on the War Hero Relic of Boundless ages vs. the Campaign Relic of Boundless Ages here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1024-page-11.html

 

I just finished the Analysis of the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-1024-post-24331.html#pid24331

 

Look for the post made by Dack.

 

The results come out that the BiS are the Dreadguard Relic of Boundless Ages and the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest (that's right, kinetic, not elemental)

 

DoT specs benefit more from the proc relics, but non-DoT specs still have the same BiS results.

Thank you :)

 

For the kinetic relic to be more effective does that only require a 20% armor debuff on a boss?

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For the kinetic relic to be more effective does that only require a 20% armor debuff on a boss?

 

I was told that with one 20% armor debuff on the boss, or ops dummy, the relic procs for 218. I do not have the daily comms to test this, but if so then the kinetic is better. If someone could give me that information that would be amazing. (You could buy the relic and sell it back if it doesn't work)

 

EDIT: Ahha! Talked to a friend in MoX, the Kinetic does 219 damage with a 20% armor debuff. It is superior in an operation.

Edited by Dragonbgone
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I was told that with one 20% armor debuff on the boss, or ops dummy, the relic procs for 218. I do not have the daily comms to test this, but if so then the kinetic is better. If someone could give me that information that would be amazing. (You could buy the relic and sell it back if it doesn't work)

 

EDIT: Ahha! Talked to a friend in MoX, the Kinetic does 219 damage with a 20% armor debuff. It is superior in an operation.

 

Great, thanks for the confimation

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the one person reporting 218 kinetic damage had a 35% debuff on the boss, not 20.

 

for mercs, best in slot might be kinetic, but for dot trees without 35% debuff i think internal damage is better.

 

also, if the kinetic damage can be dodged and shielded, then the average value that gets through would be less than what you get out of an internal proc relic. considering the merc did not report any shielded hits (does dreadtooth haave a shield generator), the attack might be a tech attack.

 

can people start uploading their parses with the kinetic relic up to torparse or something please?

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Operations bosses have 35% damage reduction from armor (tested on the ops training dummy). A 25% armor debuff (from merc/commando) gives a damage reduction of 26.25%. I don't have the unmitigated numbers for the kinetic proc relic in front of me, but it should be fairly easy to do the math and compute the final mitigated value as compared to the elemental proc (at 210).

 

A bit of quick math on the 218 number assuming 35% armor pen yields a pre-mitigation value of 282.20. Plugging this into an armor pen of 25% yields 208.12, which is actually worse than the elemental proc relic.

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DPS and Healing Proc relics are terrible. The only proc relic you should use is the tank proc relic.

 

It all depends on ones play style. Mechanics are broad enough in MMOs nowadays to allow different core mechanics to be played by the players on the same classes and get roughly similar outcomes even though the approach is different.

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Operations bosses have 35% damage reduction from armor (tested on the ops training dummy). A 25% armor debuff (from merc/commando) gives a damage reduction of 26.25%. I don't have the unmitigated numbers for the kinetic proc relic in front of me, but it should be fairly easy to do the math and compute the final mitigated value as compared to the elemental proc (at 210).

 

A bit of quick math on the 218 number assuming 35% armor pen yields a pre-mitigation value of 282.20. Plugging this into an armor pen of 25% yields 208.12, which is actually worse than the elemental proc relic.

 

It depends on your spec. Arsenal commando has a 35% armor penetration from High Velocity Cyclinder, and then a futher 20% from tracer missile, to a total of 55%. So a proc relic with 288 energy will be better than an internal of 210. Whether a merc/commando should use a proc relic is another matter.

 

Assuming a raid setting, there will always be a 20% debuff on the armor. So the equation for which is 'better' can be summed up as following..

 

Energy proc = 288 * (1 - 0.35 * (1 - (0.20 + P))), where P is your armor penetration.

 

Internal proc = 210.

 

Rewriting for P, you have (1-0.35*(1- (0.2 + P))) = 0.73, expanding on the left

 

(1 - 0.35 * (0.8 - P)) = 0.73, move the 1 across

 

0.35 * (0.8 - P) = 0.27, diving by 0.35 both side

 

0.8 - P = 0.77

 

so P = 3%.

 

subtratcint 0.73 from both side, and moving 0.35P to the right

 

0.20 = 0.35 * P

 

P = 3%

 

In another words, if you have ANY armor penetration, it'll do more damage.

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