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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians


Ventessel

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I think there are far too many inconsistencies in Star Wars lore for this debate to have a real conclusion.

 

This is sadly true, but what we can do is try to filter through the conflicting pieces of canon, apply sound reasoning to the things we can observe, and make sense of the franchise that we all have grown so fond of.

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And he surpassed them while giving in to the Dark Side more and more, thriving on the Clone Wars and his many battles. What does that say about the Jedi?

 

I don't see your point. Or maybe you don't see mine. Anakin Skywalker was ahead of most of the Jedi, even the ones who you believe to be hardened by war.

 

By himself. Just one dude, training the next generation of Jedi, eh?

For an order of precognitive warriors, that seems quite short sighted, doesn't it?

 

You really think Cin Drallig was the only combat instructor? The Order had several combat instructors. Even Master Yoda was teaching young Jedi. If you will recall, he rarely left Corucsant.

 

This was during the Clone Wars, the first experience with warfare in a millenium. Surely the Jedi had a more sustainable approach to training and running the Jedi Order during the days of more frequent warfare, especially when the Great Galactic War lasted 28 YEARS. That's older than Anakin Skywalker was when he became Darth Vader. The entire prequel trilogy could have been swallowed by this war.

 

You assume the Jedi have such an approach, but the Jedi had experienced 300 years of peace prior to the Great Galactic War. They were in the same position as the PT Order. The Jedi only had the time to properly train new students during the Cold War.

 

I'm not sure that I do. Sparring is fine preparation, but there's only so much it can do for you. Learning "on the fly" is actually just testing your training, and gives a warrior the best possible insight into his abilities by testing him to the ultimate limit. This is not something that can ever be replicated by training.

 

Perhaps I didn't explain fully. While you can't simulate life or death situations to the fullest, sparring can give the Jedi insight into their own weaknesses. The more experienced Jedi can point out the weaknesses in the inferior one's form, and guide them in dealing with that weakness. With the proper training, a Jedi can develop their skills to fully master their chosen form to its highest extent.

 

In the case of Count Dooku, he had mastered Makashi to such an extent that he had eliminated the forms weakness to dealing with multiple opponents.

 

George barely understands his own characters, let alone what constitutes rational motivations for them. Taken at face value, we can only assume that Yoda is one of the most arrogant Jedi alive.

 

He goes by himself to confront the Sith Lord who killed four other Jedi masters? He flat out rejects Obi-Wan's request to fight the emperor, and instead of saying "Why don't we team up on him and then go kill Darth Vader?" Yoda just heads off on his own to get the biggest smackdown of his life. So Yoda is neither wise nor a very humble Jedi. So much for those thousands of years of teaching, eh?

 

No need to insult the man. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean you have to ignore what he has to say in HIS universe.

 

Now back to Yoda. He was the only one that had a chance to stop Palpatine, but they also couldn't ignore the newly annointed Darth Vader. How was it going to look when Yoda and Obi-Wan confront him? He's already distraught, and doesn't trust the Jedi. Obi-Wan was his friend, and had a chance to bring Anakin back. It's kind of like an intervention.

 

Not only that, but Palpatine could easily put Obi-Wan down.

 

I think perhaps you're taking my specific thesis here and interpreting it in very broad strokes. The bottom line that I'm getting at is:

Jedi who frequently faced enemy lightsaber duelists would have developed superior skills to Jedi who did not have that experience.

 

Furthermore, the PT Era Jedi lacked these opportunities to hone their dueling skills, while Jedi who lived in the OR Era (or later eras, such as the NJO or Legacy) would have had ample experience with lightsaber combat.

 

Canon seems to prove your bottom line wrong. However, I'm not saying that the OR Jedi are inexperienced, but I am saying that the PT Jedi are simply better. This has been said by multiple canon sources, and proved in the lore.

 

In The Making of Revenge of The Sith, George Lucas says "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

 

Note that two members of the PT Order are capable of competing with the most powerful Sith to ever exist.

 

I don't know about that, it certainly seems plausible that the Jedi became complacent and were more easily defeated because of it. Darth Malgus certainly seemed to think that the "cradle of power" had made the Jedi soft.

 

Because Malgus knows so much. :rolleyes: Remember that the most powerful members of the Order at that time were away at Alderaan. He took advantage of the peace talks to attack the Jedi Temple. He caught the Jedi off guard, because they were under the impression that peace was being discussed. In fact, the Jedi were more concerned about the Sith making an attack on Alderaan than anything else.

 

The Sith certainly didn't twiddle their thumbs. But there's no reason to suppose that two Sith, on their own, were going to be able to discover more about the Force than hundreds of Sith Lords studying and experimenting with it. They certainly discovered more nasty, dark secrets but it would have been quite slowly.

 

Except it is noted that the Sith had collected an impressive collection of Dark secrets, and Plagueis had discovered immortality. Obviously they had to start from scratch, but by the time Sidious rolls around, the Banite line had collected a vast archive of knowledge. And Sidious had studied it all.

 

In short, I do not accept the premise that NOT fighting will somehow increase an organization's knowledge of combat.

 

I don't think you understand. The PT Jedi had access to the teachings of their predecessors, they learned from the past generations. This gave them great knowledge of the lightsaber forms. And remember that the Jedi weren't starting from scratch. Veterans of the New Sith Wars taught new Jedi, and these teachings passed down to new generations, and each generation made improvements to the forms.

 

Where does it say that Yoda was preparing for war?

Also, it certainly seems like Yoda knew what the Banite Sith were all about. He is distinctly aware that there is always "a master and an apprentice" ... so he's clearly not expecting Malgus to swoop in with a dropship full of Sith Warriors. So I guess we're back to wondering if Yoda was senile, or just rather dense?

 

 

Which Jedi, exactly, were preparing for all out war with the Sith? As near as I can tell, the Jedi mostly believed that the Sith were extinct, but that if they did come back, it would be only two of them...

 

ROTS novelization says that Yoda had been preparing the Order to fight the last war.

 

And as to how Yoda knows about the Rule of Two. The Jedi were told by Kibh Jeen. The "Two there are, no more, no less." were his last words. Kibh was a fallen Jedi and his words were deemed the ravings of a madman by the Jedi Order. However, the Jedi began preparing for another war prior to the Battle of Naboo.

 

Now, concerning the "Sith have been extinct for a millenia". It should be noted that the Jedi Order tried to cover up the return on the Sith until they could properly analyze the situation. So we could assume that they were in denial or didn't expect the Sith so soon.

 

Personally, and this is my opinion, I believe that Yoda thought that the Sith were in hiding to prepare an army, as Kibh's death was over one hundred years before the Clone Wars.

 

But I suppose this debate will continue endlessly at this rate. Personally, I have seen this debate pop up so many times that I have grown tired of it. We have indisbutable facts that show that the most powerful members of the PT Order are some of the best of all time. We have an indisbutable fact that its Grand Master is the most powerful Jedi the Order had seen up to that point.

 

Again, I want to stress that the OR Jedi are not weak, but they are not as powerful or as skilled as their PT counterparts. Of course this isn't an absolute rule as there are exceptions, but that number is few.

 

Personally, I think that an OR knight could hold his own quite well against a PT Knight. Take your average Jedi Knight from both sides. The OR Knight would hold his own quite well, but the PT Knight would have more experience in the subtle nuances of lightsaber combat, as the average PT Knight will have studied multiple forms.

 

For me, I think I'm done with this particular debate, at least until I decide to rejoin the debate. But I don't see how this is going to be settled. Just remember that Jedi don't flourish during war, they flourish during peace times. This is most evident in the PT, but also in other eras. The TOR era Jedi saw a similar era of peace, though not to the same degree as the PT Jedi. I think that's the biggest point that you (among others) need to consider.

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For me, I think I'm done with this particular debate, at least until I decide to rejoin the debate. But I don't see how this is going to be settled. Just remember that Jedi don't flourish during war, they flourish during peace times. This is most evident in the PT, but also in other eras. The TOR era Jedi saw a similar era of peace, though not to the same degree as the PT Jedi. I think that's the biggest point that you (among others) need to consider.

Fair enough. I don't want this to get bogged down into a perpetual argument over PT vs. OR Jedi blah blah blah. I'm trying to address a very specific concept here, which is the experience and skill of duelists with lightsabers, and the factors that lead to their development.

 

From that initial thesis, several topics have spun off, all of which I am interested in discussing.

1. What were the Jedi doing when they weren't fighting the Sith?

- 1.1 Why does an organization with an aversion to warfare assume the mantle of Jedi Knights?

2. How do we justify new content that occurs in between already established canon?

- 2.1 Specifically, the Great Galactic War represents an entire era on par with either of the film trilogies.

- 2.2 Old statements by Lucas, etc. don't take into account newer developments/ideas.

3. (this one is just off the cusp) Why do the Jedi monopolize the education of Force Sensitives? We see an active attempt throughout the existence of the Jedi Order to suppress alternative Force Traditions. Is it illegal for other organizations to train their members who may be Force sensitive? What if the Jedi want to take your child for training and you object? I'm not sure these questions have been raised before... perhaps I'll put this in a different thread.

 

Anyhows, while I'm specifically addressing points that Aurbere raised/countered in this post, I would love for anyone else with an opinion to jump in and give their two cents, especially with any new topics that might creep into my post here. Please do not be intimidated if you only have a minor point to contribute and don't want to write a "mega-post" like some of us (not pointing fingers, but we know who we are) tend to.

 

You assume the Jedi have such an approach, but the Jedi had experienced 300 years of peace prior to the Great Galactic War. They were in the same position as the PT Order. The Jedi only had the time to properly train new students during the Cold War.

 

Perhaps they did, and perhaps not. What I'm saying is that they must have had some way to sustain themselves throughout a war that lasted twenty-eight years. That's an order of magnitude longer than the Clone Wars were, and would necessitate adaptation. Many times in Star Wars we have to logically fill in the gaps left by the writers. After all, part of the beauty of Star Wars is that no one person has to think of everything in the galaxy. The fans and other writers frequently help to tie things together logically.

 

Because Malgus knows so much. :rolleyes: Remember that the most powerful members of the Order at that time were away at Alderaan. He took advantage of the peace talks to attack the Jedi Temple. He caught the Jedi off guard, because they were under the impression that peace was being discussed. In fact, the Jedi were more concerned about the Sith making an attack on Alderaan than anything else.

 

Malgus' statement was referring to the beginning of the war. He didn't say "while you negotiated on Alderaan, we gathered out forces", he says "for 300 years..." The quote introduces the Great Galactic War, since it was first heard in the opening of the first trailer to ever showcase The Old Republic.

 

And I would take Malgus' opinion seriously here (strange, I know). He was a Sith Warrior, and fought the Jedi constantly. If anyone would know whether the Jedi were softened by their years of peace, it would be Malgus. He'd be a pretty good guy to ask about how the Jedi's fighting prowess adapted over the course of the war, maybe I can get an interview scheduled sometime...

 

Perhaps I didn't explain fully. While you can't simulate life or death situations to the fullest, sparring can give the Jedi insight into their own weaknesses. The more experienced Jedi can point out the weaknesses in the inferior one's form, and guide them in dealing with that weakness. With the proper training, a Jedi can develop their skills to fully master their chosen form to its highest extent.

 

I don't think you understand. The PT Jedi had access to the teachings of their predecessors, they learned from the past generations. This gave them great knowledge of the lightsaber forms. And remember that the Jedi weren't starting from scratch. Veterans of the New Sith Wars taught new Jedi, and these teachings passed down to new generations, and each generation made improvements to the forms.

You are entirely correct that training is crucial to building the foundations of a skilled swordsman, or any combatant for that matter. I am hardly suggesting throwing half-trained Padawans into the fray of battle. Practice and sparring will build the technical skills necessary to become a good duelist.

 

What I am talking about are the steps after you've learned the basics. The Jedi Knights and Masters who actually fight lethal duels against trained Sith will be the ones who develop good combat instincts.

 

There is so much more to winning an engagement than being a technical master of a lightsaber form, or even all seven. Knowing something and knowing how to apply it are two different realms. There is an intuitive leap that must be made between the formal instruction in combat techniques, and the instincts to use them effectively.

 

Please allow me to be clear, there are two phases in the development of an expert combatant. The first consists of showing him the skills he will use on the battlefield, and the second consists of actually practicing those skills himself, in the heat of battle. These two phases will alternate, and a combatant will continually improve between battles and engagements, absorbing his experience and supplementing it with further practice to sharpen his skills.

 

The PT Era Jedi can only progress up to a certain point without experiencing combat. The sparring among fellow Jedi is part of learning the fundamentals of the forms, but it cannot stand in as a substitute for experience. Similarly, the Jedi cannot "revolutionize" the fighting forms during 1000 years of peace. They remained almost completely unchanged between Ruusan and the Clone Wars, because they were stagnant. It wasn't until Mace Windu (an extremely unconventional Jedi) that any further developments were made to the forms.

 

Now back to Yoda. He was the only one that had a chance to stop Palpatine, but they also couldn't ignore the newly annointed Darth Vader. How was it going to look when Yoda and Obi-Wan confront him? He's already distraught, and doesn't trust the Jedi. Obi-Wan was his friend, and had a chance to bring Anakin back. It's kind of like an intervention.

Not only that, but Palpatine could easily put Obi-Wan down.

No need to insult the man. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean you have to ignore what he has to say in HIS universe.

It's nothing personal, I'm rather fond of George Lucas. He has a great imagination and his vision of a sci-fi universe sparked something truly remarkable. However, his strengths lie in envisioning technology and starships, exotic locations and so forth. He has practically no ability to write believable characters when left to his own devices, and does not often reason out the ramifications that many things have within his own stories.

 

While it may be "his" universe, Star Wars has grown far beyond the vision of any one man. It was his stories that started it all, but at this point the Star Wars universe has a life of its own. His statements made during the filming of Episode 3 could not possibly take into account any of the events or characters during the Great Galactic War because... no one had thought of it yet. Bane's story had not been told in great detail, and many other things didn't exist either. So we as the fans and audience have to read into the lore and make new determinations to collate conflicting pieces of information together, at least until it is firmly codified in new pieces of Star Wars media.

 

But yes, back to Yoda. Or rather, back to Obi-Wan. He of all people should know better than to confront a Sith Lord alone. I seem to recall:

"We'll take him together, you go in slowly on the left..."

"No, I'm taking him now!"

Because that worked out so well. But wait, next time it worked much better!

"This time, we'll do it together."

So when Yoda proposes splitting up, you would think Obi-Wan (who's supposedly a pretty good General at this point as well) would say something like, "Wait, Yoda! That's not how divide and conquer works, you've got it backwards!" Rather than take the opportunity to confront the two Sith individually when they'll have the numerical advantage, they blunder in like... well, like a reckless Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

 

EDIT: I just remembered that Obi-Wan's experience with this goes back even further. Part of the reason that Qui-Gon Jinn was killed was because Maul managed to separate him and Obi-Wan. Seriously, Obi-Wan's entire psyche should be screaming out against this brilliant plan to split up.

 

And, yes, Obi-Wan is not good enough to challenge the Emperor, but it would certainly tip the scales in Yoda's favor to have an ally with him. After all, Master Kenobi is one of the finest warriors in the Jedi Order, capable of sparring with Mace Windu. He'd probably be pretty darn useful in that fight.

 

Teamwork is another thing that war is supposed to teach you. On a battlefield, you don't stand much chance alone, but working with your squadmates, or other allies, you are able to wreak havoc on the enemy. You watch each other's backs, gang up on individual enemies, and generally support each other in combat (Gosh, I can't think of when SWTOR players would ever team up to take on adversaries they can't handle alone...)

 

This is what I mean by Mr. Lucas not thinking out the actions of his characters very well. The actions of two of the wisest Jedi in the order. Two generals, who've been coordinating the Republic's armies for three years. Right, those guys.

 

And as to how Yoda knows about the Rule of Two. The Jedi were told by Kibh Jeen. The "Two there are, no more, no less." were his last words. Kibh was a fallen Jedi and his words were deemed the ravings of a madman by the Jedi Order. However, the Jedi began preparing for another war prior to the Battle of Naboo.

Personally, and this is my opinion, I believe that Yoda thought that the Sith were in hiding to prepare an army, as Kibh's death was over one hundred years before the Clone Wars.

You are entitled to your opinion. That's part of the beauty of Star Wars, we can argue over things until we figure them out because it doesn't all add up. That's almost part of the fun, fitting the puzzle pieces of this exciting universe together.

However, it makes no bloody sense Yoda would take stock in the ravings of a madman who died a century ago. It's his first reaction, not some theory that he eventually begins to consider. He and Mace straight up declare that there are always two Sith. They are clearly entirely aware of the Rule of Two, and so it should figure prominently into their planning.

(I'd appreciate a response from Aurbere on this point, since it's not related to the main debate per se, but raises some interesting questions nonetheless. The ball's in your court, Historian. You have made me quite curious)

Personally, I think that an OR knight could hold his own quite well against a PT Knight. Take your average Jedi Knight from both sides. The OR Knight would hold his own quite well, but the PT Knight would have more experience in the subtle nuances of lightsaber combat, as the average PT Knight will have studied multiple forms.

Eh, this is kind of missing the point of what I'm saying. Both knights would have studied the forms to an equal degree, since they're the same in both eras (except Vapaad, but only two Jedi were instructed in that, so it's not relevant). The point that I make is that the subtle nuances of combat cannot be learned without experience. It's something that cannot be taught. It can be discussed, and advice can be given, but the actual personal intuition and instincts must come from experience. I cannot stress this enough, as it is central to everything I am saying about lightsaber combat here.

 

 

And in case you're wondering, you're not suddenly going color blind. I decided to start using a blue font because white got boring.

Edited by Ventessel
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Im not denying that Bane wasnt powerful (although in your defense i made it sound like i viewed him as such). What im saying was that the Brotherhood was so weak that Bane had alot of catching up to do in restoring sith strength. He did become quite powerful, (id put him on par with Darth Revan) but his Banite line made sure each new sith would be stronger than the last including himself. Thus making him the weakest sith in his own line.

Or at least, it did until they started killing each other in their sleep...

That's the problem with relying on your Sith successors to be selflessly devoted to creating apprentices stronger than themselves....

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Or at least, it did until they started killing each other in their sleep...

That's the problem with relying on your Sith successors to be selflessly devoted to creating apprentices stronger than themselves....

 

My color has been stolen... I mourn it loss.

 

On a happier note, Vent, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong Aurbere) that Aurbere is attempting to convey a 'Star Wars' truth using 'Earth' reasoning and the two are not always compatible. This is one such instance. In our common reasoning on earth, we know experience hones a soldier's reflexes and instincts. But by 'Star Wars' reasoning, when a Jedi gets 'experience' in war, it weakens him and wears on him due to his force connection (something we cannot experience). A non-force user lacks this weariness and is thus unaffected by 'experience'. A Darkside user even feeds on this 'experience' to drive himself forward, and it corrupts him even more.

 

Try and think of it as all Jedi being more susceptible to PTSD than non force users. They are much more likely to break or falter (fall to the darkside) and keeping themselves together takes a toll on them an their abilities.

 

On the other hand, a PT Jedi at peace has trained AND learned to control himself. He practices long and often and has none of the emotional baggage and dulled power of a worn, battle hardened warrior.

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No problem, I do a lot of editing for different people, so it's sort of second nature sometimes. If you want good examples of excellently written swordplay, check out the Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan (the author) was an infantry officer in Vietnam and he writes excellent battles and duels.

 

 

Makes better sense with your explananation, although I do have a strong personal dislike of Ataru as a form.

Perhaps I should try harder to view all this through the lens of the Jedi Code, but if I were instructing Jedi padawans in combat techniques it would go something like this:

Shii-Cho: Teaches you the basic footwork for later forms. Never use this ever.

Makashi: Flashy and showy, but effective for conserving energy if your opponent doesn't use Juyo or Djem So.

Soresu: Only employ this if you're facing blasters, or trying to escape a superior foe.

Ataru: Don't use this. It's sloppy and it tires you out too quickly.

Shien/Djem So: Balanced and good for any combat situation, especially against lightsabers.

Niman: No one even knows what this form is, let's be honest. It relates to Jar'kai... somehow.

Juyo: This is your standby for winning fights. Only use another form if you're being attacked via the Force, otherwise push the offensive and carve 'em up.

 

But then again, the combat instruction I provide in real life is "Kick out their knee and stomp on their head. If they try to grab you, crush their windpipe and snap their neck." So, first off, I'd probably be instantly expelled from the Jedi Order. Secondly, I'd have to sit through sensitivity training with Yoda about how I can't have padawans engaging in live fire exercises and beating each other with sticks... but that might look pretty good when I applied for the position of Korriban Academy Dueling Team Coach...

 

Let's leave Lucas and his petty squabbling with the EU out of this. I'm holding out the hope that Episode VII will put G-Canon in its grave, and we can pretend that The Phantom Menace was just a bad dream...

But you're right about the stamina playing a role, it just doesn't matter how long you can fight if your adversary ends that duel three seconds in (the majority of hand to hand engagements that begin with lethal intent last less than six).

 

This is pretty much what I'm trying to do. I'm not saying that the PT Jedi are pathetic and weak (or rather, that they're any more pathetic and weak than the Jedi who came before them) but rather that they are inexperienced with fighting. I'm not saying EVERY Jedi in the OR Era was a master duelist, I'm just saying that there were a lot of prolonged conflicts that produced exceptionally experienced warriors.

 

 

To answer you directly, Malgus didn't singlehandedly kill every Jedi at the temple. He brought a large contingent of Sith with him, who were likely selected from the ranks of the Sith Empire for this assault because of their combat prowess. The Jedi at the temple were probably still completing their training, with the exception of their instructors who were likely veteran Jedi returned from the battlefields. However, there would not be many of them at the temple, only enough to train the new padawans, meaning that the Sith force would have the edge in experienced warriors, as well as the element of surprise and a coordinated assault on the temple.

 

The PT Era Jedi began the Clone Wars without much experience at all. Mace Windu even says to the Chancellor "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" at the outset of the Clone Wars. These Jedi are not accustomed to warfare or the realities of combat. It seems that over the course of the Clone Wars, they gain experience with many aspects of warfare, but lightsaber dueling doesn't really seem to be one of them. There's no practical need for them to be good at it, just as in the modern day world soldiers still learn how to march and drill, but it is by no means an essential skill on the battlefield. In the Napoleonic Era, the ability of a regiment to hold formation and execute bayonet drills in the face of an enemy charge was critical to their surivival. Modern infantry are trained in all the same aspects of marching and drill, but they have much less need to hone their skills to perfection than their predecessors did.

 

To extend my analogy, PT Era Jedi would likely be experts at Soresu and the deflection aspects of Shien because these are skills the will need to survive. And while they will have a working knowledge of the other forms, they are not forced to apply them in a fight against another saber wielder.

EDIT: In response to the claim the "a master of Soresu is invincible", I provide a quote from this page:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad

 

Please, no one is invincible. That word should be stricken from these forums. Moving on...

 

The Jedi who fought in the days of the Great Galactic War, and the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, Great Hyperspace War, etc. etc. would have known they would encounter enemy duelists, and while blaster deflection would matter, it was of equal importance to be able to win lightsaber duels. In the time of the PT Era Jedi, lightsaber dueling was practically an obsolete art. How many Jedi ever even saw a Sith? It had been a thousand years since the Jedi fought enemies with lightsabers. No matter how meticulously they practiced the forms recorded in holocrons, almost none of the Jedi had any experience with dueling. There are thousands of subtle nuances that cannot be taught or learned from a textbook (er... holocron). For Jedi, who rely partially on precognition and hair-trigger reactions during their duels, learning to interpret their instincts during a duel would probably be even more important than it is for regular soldiers. Without the actual experience of the real thing, a fight to the death, there is simply an element missing from that duelist's instincts. The learning curve is rather steep, and the price heavy, but you cannot underestimate the value of real experience in your organization.

 

 

Well, I suppose I was trying to avoid having to address this point. What you are saying is that Jedi are disrupted by conflict, that it interferes with their ability to wield the Force, and that it weakens them. In theory, you can find canonical arguments to support all of these statements, but what concerns me here are the implications that this has for the Jedi Order.

 

Lightsabers and Jedi are introduced to us by Obi-Wan Kenobi, saying "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age. For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." (If you didn't hear that in Alec Guinness' voice in your head, I don't know what I'll do...)

 

One of the primary duties of the Jedi is to protect the Old Republic, apparently from the Sith. Since the Sith are generally fairly aggressive, and historically have favored the tactic of "invade the Republic with massive fleets and armies" it would make sense for the Jedi to prepare themselves for war in order to combat the threat posed by the Sith.

 

Unfortunately, it seems that the very thing they exist to do (fight the Sith when they invade) also weakens them fatally and disrupts all of their abilities. That would make the Jedi a very dysfunctional order indeed.

 

Every time the Sith start a war, it becomes a losing proposition for the Jedi. Their entire philosophy forgoes preemptive strikes or aggressive campaigns in warfare, and so it usually ends up that the Sith pick the time and nature of their engagements with the Jedi. The longer the war stretches, the weaker and less powerful the Jedi become, thus making it harder for them to continue defending the Republic.

 

Basically, according to this line of thinking, the Jedi suck at their job. Not just now and then, but fundamentally and irrevocably. The Jedi Order is practically doomed to fail at its mission, because the very act of carrying out their duties also seems to be their ultimate weakness.

 

Aside from this glaring inconsistency in the purpose and philosophies of the Jedi Order, the point that I am trying to address here is this: actual combat experience produces the best duelists.

 

I am not saying that years of warfare strengthen the Jedi Order as a whole. I am not saying that the casualties sustained by the Jedi during a war do not affect them negatively. What I am saying is that during times of war, specifically when Jedi fight against large numbers of Sith, you will find the most experienced and deadliest lightsaber duelists.

 

Naturally, extended conflicts sap the strength of both sides. This is the nature of war, it is destructive and costly. I never said that it wasn't. However, wars do produce experienced warriors.

 

The years immediately preceding the First Jedi Purge saw the Jedi Order pushed to the edge of annihilation. This was obviously terrible for the Jedi Order, and it would take them a long time to rebuild themselves. By the time of the Great Galactic War, we actually have a situation rather similar to the PT Jedi Order. Centuries of peace have allowed the Jedi to replenish their numbers and they are well established. Then we have Malgus' seething:

"For 300 years we prepared, we grew stronger. While you rested in your cradle of power, believing your people were safe and protected...but you were deceived."

The Sith invade, striking first and striking hard. They push the Jedi back, they take countless worlds. The war drags on, and the Jedi are barely able to defend the Republic. Finally, a stalemate is reached after twenty-eight years of warfare.

 

"While you rested in your cradle of power" ...

Resting is the act of recovering. You rest to restore yourself after being exhausted, but resting does not increase your strength at all. It seems that peace did not make the Jedi stronger, it only allowed them to amass larger numbers of padawans in the absence of battlefield casualties. Did the Great Galactic War make the Jedi stronger? Not necessarily, but it would certainly have made the Jedi better duelists. The constant need to learn and refine dueling techniques, always grasping for that edge against the invading Sith armies, would have pushed the Jedi to the limits of their abilities. You either mastered lightsaber combat, or you died facing the red glow of a Sith's lightsaber.

 

After the Ruusan Reforms, the Jedi essentially abandoned warfare. The Army of Light disbanded, and the Sith were presumed extinct. In many ways, this was a golden era for the Jedi. Finally, they could pursue the study of the Force and its mysteries without the constant need to prepare for war against the legions of the Sith and their followers.

 

But over the course of this millenium, the arts of war receded into the background. There was no need for Jedi generals, or for duelists to fight back the Sith. Lightsaber combat was studied from holocrons, and Jedi sparred against each other, but for generations no one actually had to apply these skills on the battlefield. By the time of the Battle of Theed, when Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi face Darth Maul, the Jedi are barely even able to identify a Sith.

 

The Jedi council expresses disbelief that the guy WEARING BLACK ROBES AND SWINGING A RED LIGHTSABER was actually a Sith warrior. Mace and Yoda think that the Sith are extinct, and find it hard to believe that they've returned. Only after Qui-Gon is dead do they finally realize that they're dealing with the real thing. Even then, it takes the better part of the Clone Wars for anyone to begin to suspect Palpatine of anything sketchy despite the fact that Mace Windu clearly states "the dark side of the Force surrounds the chancellor" ... apparently that still leaves some doubt as to his nature?

 

It seems quite clear that these Jedi have absolutely no experience dealing with Sith. When the Clone Wars break out, Windu again says "we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers". These Jedi have spent a thousand years mediating debates, resolving disputes, and meditating. In the first two minutes of the war almost 150 Jedi Knights and masters are cut down by mere battle droids in the Geonosis Arena, whereas as the war progresses we later see various Jedi perform much better against these droids. Their abilities in combat clearly improve over the course of the war. Anakin and Obi-Wan become dramatically more proficient between their first fight with Dooku and their second.

 

Should this even be possible, according to Beni and Aurbere's line of reasoning? If anything, three years of non-stop warfare should have degraded the abilities of the Jedi, but instead we see most, if not all, of the Jedi who survive numerous battles becoming better combatants.

 

So, to wrap up a post that may have rambled slightly (and I apologize for that, I didn't get around to starting this until rather late but wanted to get my thoughts down) I have this to say for war vs. peace:

 

Times of war will hone the individual combat skills of Jedi, when evaluated on an individual basis. They have access to veteran teachers, and will gain first hand combat experience to not only reinforce their training, but allow them to develop vital instincts for battle. The flipside of course is that prolonged warfare will eventually diminish the Jedi's numbers to the point where it becomes difficult to train new Jedi.

 

Times of peace will allow the Jedi Order to increase numerically, but none of these Jedi will gain real combat experience. Thus, entire generations may pass through the order without the need to ever put their lightsaber training to the test. This is especially true for lightsaber on lightsaber techniques. While the threat from occasional blaster fire is fairly constant, dueling experience becomes quite rare.

 

Lastly, to address the absurd plethora of individual Jedi that have been listed as skilled duelists. They are all stated to be "one of the best in his/her day" or "among the most skilled of their era" and so on and so forth. Comparisons like this are only possible with those Jedi's peers, or with the Jedi who trained directly under them/lived in their lifetime. If none of the Jedi in a particular era have seen combat with lightsabers, how exactly are they going to be expert judges of a certain duelist's proficiency? It is only after these skills have been laid to the ultimate test that they will know for certain.

 

 

I bow before thee, lore-master! :eek:

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Fair enough. I don't want this to get bogged down into a perpetual argument over PT vs. OR Jedi blah blah blah. I'm trying to address a very specific concept here, which is the experience and skill of duelists with lightsabers, and the factors that lead to their development.

 

From that initial thesis, several topics have spun off, all of which I am interested in discussing.

1. What were the Jedi doing when they weren't fighting the Sith?

- 1.1 Why does an organization with an aversion to warfare assume the mantle of Jedi Knights?

2. How do we justify new content that occurs in between already established canon?

- 2.1 Specifically, the Great Galactic War represents an entire era on par with either of the film trilogies.

- 2.2 Old statements by Lucas, etc. don't take into account newer developments/ideas.

3. (this one is just off the cusp) Why do the Jedi monopolize the education of Force Sensitives? We see an active attempt throughout the existence of the Jedi Order to suppress alternative Force Traditions. Is it illegal for other organizations to train their members who may be Force sensitive? What if the Jedi want to take your child for training and you object? I'm not sure these questions have been raised before... perhaps I'll put this in a different thread.

 

Anyhows, while I'm specifically addressing points that Aurbere raised/countered in this post, I would love for anyone else with an opinion to jump in and give their two cents, especially with any new topics that might creep into my post here. Please do not be intimidated if you only have a minor point to contribute and don't want to write a "mega-post" like some of us (not pointing fingers, but we know who we are) tend to.

 

Alright, let's address some of these points.

 

1. The Jedi were keeping the peace throughout the galaxy. Going off on missions to settle disputes or put an end to 'law-breakers' and their ilk. Their actions included fighting in the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace Wars.

 

But they were also expanding their knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Peace times are excellent times to broaden knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Veterans of the New Sith Wars passed on their knowledge of the lightsaber forms, allowing the Jedi to learn from their predecessors and pass these teachings down to other generations. The forms were also expanded upon.

 

Knights are typically guardians when it comes to Star Wars. They are defenders of the Republic. It's just that war has adverse effects on a Jedi (as has been mentioned before).

 

2. Previous statements by George Lucas remain in effect until either he or Leland Chee retracts them. So Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever, and the PT Jedi Order is the Golden Age of the Jedi.

 

3. I don't think they monopolize Force sensitivity, at least that's not how I see it. Let's take the Baran Do for example. While the Jedi to take some Kel Dor for training, the more traditionalist Kel Dor families send their children to learn from the Baran Do Sages. Training isn't illegal for other organizations, but I assume the Jedi would just like to keep tabs on everything to prevent any sort of devastation by rogue Force users. But that's my opinion.

 

You are entirely correct that training is crucial to building the foundations of a skilled swordsman, or any combatant for that matter. I am hardly suggesting throwing half-trained Padawans into the fray of battle. Practice and sparring will build the technical skills necessary to become a good duelist.

 

What I am talking about are the steps after you've learned the basics. The Jedi Knights and Masters who actually fight lethal duels against trained Sith will be the ones who develop good combat instincts.

 

There is so much more to winning an engagement than being a technical master of a lightsaber form, or even all seven. Knowing something and knowing how to apply it are two different realms. There is an intuitive leap that must be made between the formal instruction in combat techniques, and the instincts to use them effectively.

 

Please allow me to be clear, there are two phases in the development of an expert combatant. The first consists of showing him the skills he will use on the battlefield, and the second consists of actually practicing those skills himself, in the heat of battle. These two phases will alternate, and a combatant will continually improve between battles and engagements, absorbing his experience and supplementing it with further practice to sharpen his skills.

 

The PT Era Jedi can only progress up to a certain point without experiencing combat. The sparring among fellow Jedi is part of learning the fundamentals of the forms, but it cannot stand in as a substitute for experience. Similarly, the Jedi cannot "revolutionize" the fighting forms during 1000 years of peace. They remained almost completely unchanged between Ruusan and the Clone Wars, because they were stagnant. It wasn't until Mace Windu (an extremely unconventional Jedi) that any further developments were made to the forms.

 

The forms were revolutionized during the 1000 year peace. Bane believed that the Jedi would stagnate, while the Sith grew in power and skill, but he was wrong. The Jedi advanced just as much as the Sith did. The Jedi didn't just sit around. They actively developed the lightsaber forms. While you are correct that dueling forms like Makashi went out of style, the Jedi still practised and mastered forms that could be used against lightsaber wielding opponents.

 

Answer me this: if combat experience is so important, why did the 1000 years of peace produce some of the greatest duelists to ever live? Every source will tell you that many of the PT Jedi were the best in their chosen form. How can that be if they have no combat experience? Suffice to say, combat experience isn't as important for a Jedi as it would be for a Sith or soldier.

 

But yes, back to Yoda. Or rather, back to Obi-Wan. He of all people should know better than to confront a Sith Lord alone. I seem to recall:

"We'll take him together, you go in slowly on the left..."

"No, I'm taking him now!"

Because that worked out so well. But wait, next time it worked much better!

"This time, we'll do it together."

So when Yoda proposes splitting up, you would think Obi-Wan (who's supposedly a pretty good General at this point as well) would say something like, "Wait, Yoda! That's not how divide and conquer works, you've got it backwards!" Rather than take the opportunity to confront the two Sith individually when they'll have the numerical advantage, they blunder in like... well, like a reckless Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

 

EDIT: I just remembered that Obi-Wan's experience with this goes back even further. Part of the reason that Qui-Gon Jinn was killed was because Maul managed to separate him and Obi-Wan. Seriously, Obi-Wan's entire psyche should be screaming out against this brilliant plan to split up.

 

And, yes, Obi-Wan is not good enough to challenge the Emperor, but it would certainly tip the scales in Yoda's favor to have an ally with him. After all, Master Kenobi is one of the finest warriors in the Jedi Order, capable of sparring with Mace Windu. He'd probably be pretty darn useful in that fight.

 

Teamwork is another thing that war is supposed to teach you. On a battlefield, you don't stand much chance alone, but working with your squadmates, or other allies, you are able to wreak havoc on the enemy. You watch each other's backs, gang up on individual enemies, and generally support each other in combat (Gosh, I can't think of when SWTOR players would ever team up to take on adversaries they can't handle alone...)

 

This is what I mean by Mr. Lucas not thinking out the actions of his characters very well. The actions of two of the wisest Jedi in the order. Two generals, who've been coordinating the Republic's armies for three years. Right, those guys.

 

Well let's go over this. While Obi-Wan would be of great help in the battle against the Emperor, there is still a very high chance that he would be killed. As it is noted in the ROTS novelization, as the duel between Yoda and Sidious comes to a close, Yoda has been pushed to his limits, while Sidious hsa not reached that point.

 

Think of it this way. If they both went off to face the Emperor, they could both be killed, leaving the galaxy in eternal darkness. By splitting up, they ensure that at least one of them will survive. Yoda believed that Obi-Wan could beat Anakin, but he would be no match for Sidious. Yoda had to ensure the survival of one of them. By sending Obi-Wan to face Anakin, he ensured that at least one of them would survive. However, the battle ended in a gamble, with Obi-Wan being the victor.

 

I do think it would have been wise for them to face the Emperor together, but the chance for failure was still too high. But their would be the chance for success, just not a very high one. Sidious could destroy Obi-Wan with ease if he wished to.

 

You are entitled to your opinion. That's part of the beauty of Star Wars, we can argue over things until we figure them out because it doesn't all add up. That's almost part of the fun, fitting the puzzle pieces of this exciting universe together.

However, it makes no bloody sense Yoda would take stock in the ravings of a madman who died a century ago. It's his first reaction, not some theory that he eventually begins to consider. He and Mace straight up declare that there are always two Sith. They are clearly entirely aware of the Rule of Two, and so it should figure prominently into their planning.

(I'd appreciate a response from Aurbere on this point, since it's not related to the main debate per se, but raises some interesting questions nonetheless. The ball's in your court, Historian. You have made me quite curious)

 

Remember that they learned of the Rule of Two from Kibh Jeen, a fallen Jedi. It was considered the ravings of a madman, but they eventually discussed the return of the Sith before the Battle of Naboo. Remember that Mace Windu also says "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." So Mace Windu and Yoda knew the Sith would return, but then Ki-Adi Mundi says that it is impossible. It is confusing.

 

However, this also explains why only Yoda and Mace Windu can compete with Palpatine (in the words of George Lucas), as they may be the only ones who had been preparing. Of course none of this is canon fact (except for what Lucas just said), so I'm theorizing here.

 

But also remember that the Golden Age produced some of the greatest duelists of all time. So even if the above theory is correct (which I doubt as it has been said that Yoda was preparing the Order for a war with the Sith), combat experience isn't necessary to produce master duelists.

 

Also, what StarSquirrel said.

 

Combat experience isn't the same for Jedi as it is for everyone else. War affects Jedi in a bad way. They lose touch with The Force. The Force isn't a simple component of lightsaber combat, it is intertwined with lightsaber combat. The Force gives the Jedi the enhanced reflexes to dodge and block attacks with almost lightning fast reflexes.

 

But then you ask, why fight in wars then? Because they have to. It is their role as Guardians of The Republic and Keepers of the Peace to fight those who would disrupt it. It is their sworn duty.

 

But then why aren't Jedi falling to the Dark Side during the Clone Wars? Well Jedi did fall, just not that many. The Clone Wars is a different kind of war, against an enemy never fought before- droids. Jedi feel the emotions of those around, and react to them. Droids do not have emotions, and their destruction has no effect on the Living Force, therefore a Jedi has little to worry about in terms of losing connection to the Light.

 

^This bit is just in response to the whole 'war is bad for the Jedi' discussion.

 

I think what you need to understand is that combat experience works differently for a Jedi than it does for a Sith or regular soldier. Sith are your standard soldier. They are always learning and feeding off of the combat. Jedi are not like that. While you could say that they learn from combat as well, but it is not combat that strengthens a Jedi. Peace times give strength to the Jedi, war strengthens the Sith.

 

The nature of the Light Side is to be at peace. As followers of the Light, the Jedi share the same traits. I think that is what you need to understand.

Edited by Aurbere
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My color has been stolen... I mourn it loss.

They do say imitation is the highest form of flattery.

 

On a happier note, Vent, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong Aurbere) that Aurbere is attempting to convey a 'Star Wars' truth using 'Earth' reasoning and the two are not always compatible. This is one such instance. In our common reasoning on earth, we know experience hones a soldier's reflexes and instincts. But by 'Star Wars' reasoning, when a Jedi gets 'experience' in war, it weakens him and wears on him due to his force connection (something we cannot experience). A non-force user lacks this weariness and is thus unaffected by 'experience'. A Darkside user even feeds on this 'experience' to drive himself forward, and it corrupts him even more.

 

Try and think of it as all Jedi being more susceptible to PTSD than non force users. They are much more likely to break or falter (fall to the darkside) and keeping themselves together takes a toll on them an their abilities.

 

On the other hand, a PT Jedi at peace has trained AND learned to control himself. He practices long and often and has none of the emotional baggage and dulled power of a worn, battle hardened warrior.

I guess this brings me back to the questions of:

Why would the Jedi spend so much time training for battle if it's the one thing he's trying to avoid since it will weaken and corrupt him? It's basically the opposite of playing to your strengths.

Also, it simply doesn't make sense that warrior-monks who are supposed to have greater mental focus and strength (to quote the great Obi-Wan again, "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" , implying that Jedi should not be weak minded) will be worn down more easily by adversity and conflict. It seems to just run contrary to human nature.

Edited by Ventessel
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ok just to add some more confusion to the fire. In Ep 1 we hear yoda and windu in th council chambers talking about how the jedi were loosing their connection with the force, and how the coming of the chosen one "anakin" would be the re-balancing of the force. Supposely reinforcing the jedi's ability to use the force. Master Yoda was very concerned that he wan't able to sense the rising of this new threat from the Sith. It seems like at this time the jedi were running into a situation that the rakatta ran into in this game a force sensitive race that was loosing its ability to control the force. So at a time now that yes maybe the actual technical aspects of lightsaber and force combat have evolved, would the loss of conection to the force offset any technical improvements in technique?
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They do say imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Why thank you! And your color is actually slightly different than mine apparently, so I'm not so broken up now :cool:

 

I guess this brings me back to the questions of:

Why would the Jedi spend so much time training for battle if it's the one thing he's trying to avoid since it will weaken and corrupt him? It's basically the opposite of playing to your strengths.

 

"a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never attack" -Yoda

 

Ah, now this is rather easily explained. Why does any peace loving people arm themselves and train to fight? Because there is always an enemy who wishes to destroy them. Remember "The Jedi where the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." -Ben Kenobi. It may weaken them in the long run (if they actually have to fight), hence why they're such avid proponents of negotiation, but they'll still have to fight whenever the sith are around because they are the only ones who can stop the sith. The PT era Jedi get thousands of years of peace to train without the weariness of war. If they where at war for a thousand years, they'd be weaker.

 

Also, it simply doesn't make sense that warrior-monks who are supposed to have greater mental focus and strength (to quote the great Obi-Wan again, "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" , implying that Jedi should not be weak minded) will be worn down more easily by adversity and conflict.

 

You're using 'earth' reasoning again. We cannot feel the force and so it is difficult to understand the concept. However through reading the force-using character's thoughts and seeing the results of their actions, we know that war has a negative impact on the Light Side of the Force (the force as a whole really). Due to the hyper-sensitivity jedi have to the force. Imagine every time you killed, you could feel it. Every time a friend or enemy died you felt their life blink out of existence and you could feel the emotions of that soldier you are about to stab. The constant waves of fear, anger, grief ect... will wear you down. **Disclaimer- I'm trying to give you a sense of what the force feels like, but I certainly dont do it justice, its like everything I've said time ten.

 

Weak mindedness (and the mind tricks to which Kenobi was referring to in that quote) has nothing to do with this... that's more an issue of the person's species and base intelligence, you're either born susceptible or not, though you can train your mind to become stronger. I have yet to see an example of how someone with a strong mind get tired and someone uses a mink trick on him. In reference to my statement, a jedi shouldn't be weak minded yes, but that's what happens when they 'break' (fall to the darkside)

 

It seems to just run contrary to human nature.

 

'Earth' reasoning here. You should let go of concepts like 'human nature' in topics regarding the force, as the force has its own nature that overrides the human one.

 

edit: just had a thought! Think of how many Jedi went to the Dark Side in OR and how many went Dark Side on PT, you'll find many more fallen Jedi in the war-torn periods.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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ok just to add some more confusion to the fire. In Ep 1 we hear yoda and windu in th council chambers talking about how the jedi were loosing their connection with the force, and how the coming of the chosen one "anakin" would be the re-balancing of the force. Supposely reinforcing the jedi's ability to use the force. Master Yoda was very concerned that he wan't able to sense the rising of this new threat from the Sith. It seems like at this time the jedi were running into a situation that the rakatta ran into in this game a force sensitive race that was loosing its ability to control the force. So at a time now that yes maybe the actual technical aspects of lightsaber and force combat have evolved, would the loss of conection to the force offset any technical improvements in technique?

 

Easily explained. In two ways.

 

Way 1 (Lore): The quote you took from Yoda is out of context. He was referring to the ability of Jedi to forsee the future and sense the Dark Side. The average Jedi in this era was unaffected by Sidious as it relates to their combat ability. Sidious was merely blocking Yoda's only means of stopping him.

 

Way 2 (George Lucas): Lucas has already made it G-cannon that PT Jedi are more powerful (we assume in the force) than OR Jedi.

 

In any case, there was no loss of connection to the force by PT Jedi in any cannon sources and certainly no relation to the Rakata. If anything, the PT has more of a connection to the force.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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Well let's go over this. While Obi-Wan would be of great help in the battle against the Emperor, there is still a very high chance that he would be killed. As it is noted in the ROTS novelization, as the duel between Yoda and Sidious comes to a close, Yoda has been pushed to his limits, while Sidious hsa not reached that point.

 

Think of it this way. If they both went off to face the Emperor, they could both be killed, leaving the galaxy in eternal darkness. By splitting up, they ensure that at least one of them will survive. Yoda believed that Obi-Wan could beat Anakin, but he would be no match for Sidious. Yoda had to ensure the survival of one of them. By sending Obi-Wan to face Anakin, he ensured that at least one of them would survive. However, the battle ended in a gamble, with Obi-Wan being the victor.

 

I do think it would have been wise for them to face the Emperor together, but the chance for failure was still too high. But their would be the chance for success, just not a very high one. Sidious could destroy Obi-Wan with ease if he wished to.

That line of reasoning still doesn't make much sense. Kenobi and Skywalker were almost perfectly evenly matched, that duel could have gone down either way. If Kenobi had been killed by Skywalker, and Yoda killed by the Emperor, that would have been it for the Jedi Order.

 

If Yoda believed the Emperor was actually so powerful that it wouldn't matter if he brought along help anyways, what was he doing confronting him in the first place? It was pure luck he escaped that fight, had it turned out differently the Emperor might simply have killed Yoda as well.

 

So we are presented with two scenarios:

Yoda believed he could take the Emperor by himself, which would be a fairly arrogant assumption since he just trounced four Jedi Masters, and that Obi-Wan wasn't needed to ensure victory in that duel.

 

Or, Yoda thought his duel with the Emperor was hopeless, in which case why not have both of them go to confront Skywalker? It's pretty clear their intention is to kill him, since Kenobi's first reaction is to say "I can't kill Anakin" when Yoda asks him to confront Skywalker. And since Kenobi knows he and Skywalker are roughly equivalent in skill, it would make sense for Yoda to accompany him to make sure they kill at least one of the Sith.

 

1. The Jedi were keeping the peace throughout the galaxy. Going off on missions to settle disputes or put an end to 'law-breakers' and their ilk. Their actions included fighting in the Yinchorri Uprising and the Stark Hyperspace Wars.

 

But they were also expanding their knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Peace times are excellent times to broaden knowledge of The Force and the lightsaber forms. Veterans of the New Sith Wars passed on their knowledge of the lightsaber forms, allowing the Jedi to learn from their predecessors and pass these teachings down to other generations. The forms were also expanded upon.

 

The forms were revolutionized during the 1000 year peace. Bane believed that the Jedi would stagnate, while the Sith grew in power and skill, but he was wrong. The Jedi advanced just as much as the Sith did. The Jedi didn't just sit around. They actively developed the lightsaber forms. While you are correct that dueling forms like Makashi went out of style, the Jedi still practised and mastered forms that could be used against lightsaber wielding opponents.

 

Without any new conflicts, or additional experience, I doubt that they will be "revolutionizing" lightsaber fighting. Again, they have no reason to change the forms that they're being taught. On top of that, I don't see any evidence that this happened, either.

In fact, consulting Wookiepedia yielded this:

With the Final battle of Ruusan, most of the Sith and other Darksider organizations were annihilated or driven into hiding, and Jedi lightsaber combat experienced radical changes as a consequence. The dueling-centric Makashi style was rendered obsolete due to its lack of effectiveness against blaster-wielding opponents, as well as the simple lack of lightsaber-wielding opponents. Thus was the same with the more obscure weapon variants; by 32 BBY, the use of double-bladed lightsabers in actual combat as opposed to training was practically unheard of.

So we actually see forms of lightsaber combat fade out or disappear from use during this period. The Jedi Order clearly moves away from lightsaber dueling to focus on other combat techniques.

 

Windu was a Juyo specialist who was working towards completing the form, as the lack of duelists with the self-control necessary to practice Form VII left it still under development.

Form VII stays in the state of development that the New Sith Wars left it in for almost a thousand years before Mace Windu picks it back up and starts refining it. This hardly indicates that the Jedi Order had been hard at work honing their dueling skills during their Golden Age.

The Clone Wars would bring about a multitude of changes in lightsaber combat, as the more moderate forms the Jedi had specialized in for the last millennia proved lacking on the battlefield

I don't really think I need to elaborate on this... the Clone Wars were a shock to the Jedi, and their styles needed to undergo serious work in order to be up to scratch for actual combat.

Notably, all the Niman practitioners involved in the Battle of Geonosis perished in combat

I said earlier that style was useless. Not that it matters much, but it's nice to feel vindicated sometimes.

 

By the end of the war, Dooku and Grievous were slain by Skywalker and Kenobi, respectively. Their vastly increased skill marked them as two of the finest duelists in the Jedi Order

This says that Skywalker and Kenobi's skills increased drastically over the course of the Clone Wars (measured from when they dueled Dooku for the first time to the events of RotS), which seems to heavily support my thesis that Jedi improve their skills during warfare just the same as anyone else. While part of this may be explained by Skywalker completing his training as a Jedi Knight, Kenobi was already a Master by Episode II, and yet he clearly improved his skills "vastly" during the Clone Wars. And if you are correct about the Jedi being needed on the front lines constantly, then that means all of his development would be from combat experience.

 

Remember that they learned of the Rule of Two from Kibh Jeen, a fallen Jedi. It was considered the ravings of a madman, but they eventually discussed the return of the Sith before the Battle of Naboo. Remember that Mace Windu also says "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." So Mace Windu and Yoda knew the Sith would return, but then Ki-Adi Mundi says that it is impossible. It is confusing.

 

However, this also explains why only Yoda and Mace Windu can compete with Palpatine (in the words of George Lucas), as they may be the only ones who had been preparing. Of course none of this is canon fact (except for what Lucas just said), so I'm theorizing here.

Right, this is basically wild mass guessing. The only things we know for sure are that Yoda and Windu expect the return of two Sith, and that Ki-Adi Mundi is skeptical, probably because the Jedi expected to find out about the Sith before they attacked.

 

But then why aren't Jedi falling to the Dark Side during the Clone Wars? Well Jedi did fall, just not that many. The Clone Wars is a different kind of war, against an enemy never fought before- droids. Jedi feel the emotions of those around, and react to them. Droids do not have emotions, and their destruction has no effect on the Living Force, therefore a Jedi has little to worry about in terms of losing connection to the Light.

Did you read my earlier arguments about how the Clone Wars were not so different from other wars in terms of the shockwaves sent out through the living Force? It's not the droids' deaths, but the Clones' which would impact the Jedi.

I think what you need to understand is that combat experience works differently for a Jedi than it does for a Sith or regular soldier. Sith are your standard soldier. They are always learning and feeding off of the combat. Jedi are not like that. While you could say that they learn from combat as well, but it is not combat that strengthens a Jedi. Peace times give strength to the Jedi, war strengthens the Sith.

 

The nature of the Light Side is to be at peace. As followers of the Light, the Jedi share the same traits. I think that is what you need to understand.

And I'm disagreeing with you on this because the body of evidence supports my case, which is that the Jedi learn from combat just the same as anyone else. Peacetime is great for training and preparing, but it's warfare that really separates the people who are skilled at sparring from the real masters, the duelists who intuitively understand the nature of combat.

 

Again, I am not saying that the PT Era Jedi were bad at fighting. They trained and prepared, and fought pretty well in the Clone Wars. But that's what they were preparing for, to fight against blaster wielding enemies.

 

Even with all that preparation, the war still caught them by surprise, and forced them to adapt their styles and tactics during the conflict. They learned, and improved based on their experience.

 

My original point was that Jedi from the eras when lightsaber combat was common would have similar experience, only with lightsabers. This is why I would consider duelists (strictly lightsabers vs. lightsabers) from those eras to likely be superior to an equally trained Jedi from the PT Era.

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That line of reasoning still doesn't make much sense. Kenobi and Skywalker were almost perfectly evenly matched, that duel could have gone down either way. If Kenobi had been killed by Skywalker, and Yoda killed by the Emperor, that would have been it for the Jedi Order.

 

If Yoda believed the Emperor was actually so powerful that it wouldn't matter if he brought along help anyways, what was he doing confronting him in the first place? It was pure luck he escaped that fight, had it turned out differently the Emperor might simply have killed Yoda as well.

 

So we are presented with two scenarios:

Yoda believed he could take the Emperor by himself, which would be a fairly arrogant assumption since he just trounced four Jedi Masters, and that Obi-Wan wasn't needed to ensure victory in that duel.

 

Or, Yoda thought his duel with the Emperor was hopeless, in which case why not have both of them go to confront Skywalker? It's pretty clear their intention is to kill him, since Kenobi's first reaction is to say "I can't kill Anakin" when Yoda asks him to confront Skywalker. And since Kenobi knows he and Skywalker are roughly equivalent in skill, it would make sense for Yoda to accompany him to make sure they kill at least one of the Sith.

 

Personally, I don't know what they were thinking, but they did what they did.

 

Without any new conflicts, or additional experience, I doubt that they will be "revolutionizing" lightsaber fighting. Again, they have no reason to change the forms that they're being taught. On top of that, I don't see any evidence that this happened, either.

In fact, consulting Wookiepedia yielded this:

 

I consulted Wookieepedia as well (because I knew you would). My search yielded similar results, except you leave out several points that counter your argument.

 

Despite this, the era produced one of the greatest lightsaber duelists to ever exist: Yoda.

 

Like that^

 

So we actually see forms of lightsaber combat fade out or disappear from use during this period. The Jedi Order clearly moves away from lightsaber dueling to focus on other combat techniques.

 

Form VII stays in the state of development that the New Sith Wars left it in for almost a thousand years before Mace Windu picks it back up and starts refining it. This hardly indicates that the Jedi Order had been hard at work honing their dueling skills during their Golden Age.

 

You are seriously going to use Juyo for your argument? The Jedi try to stay away from Juyo because it uses dark emotion and aggressive fighting, which the Jedi don't do. Mace Windu revolutionized Juyo by introducing Vaapad.

 

I don't really think I need to elaborate on this... the Clone Wars were a shock to the Jedi, and their styles needed to undergo serious work in order to be up to scratch for actual combat.

 

Would this not support the idea that they were preparing for the Sith, and not droids?

 

I said earlier that style was useless. Not that it matters much, but it's nice to feel vindicated sometimes.

 

I guess Exar Kun would disagree with you. Or is that because he's an OR Jedi/Sith?

 

And I'm disagreeing with you on this because the body of evidence supports my case, which is that the Jedi learn from combat just the same as anyone else. Peacetime is great for training and preparing, but it's warfare that really separates the people who are skilled at sparring from the real masters, the duelists who intuitively understand the nature of combat.

 

Again, I am not saying that the PT Era Jedi were bad at fighting. They trained and prepared, and fought pretty well in the Clone Wars. But that's what they were preparing for, to fight against blaster wielding enemies.

 

Even with all that preparation, the war still caught them by surprise, and forced them to adapt their styles and tactics during the conflict. They learned, and improved based on their experience.

 

My original point was that Jedi from the eras when lightsaber combat was common would have similar experience, only with lightsabers. This is why I would consider duelists (strictly lightsabers vs. lightsabers) from those eras to likely be superior to an equally trained Jedi from the PT Era.

 

And yet, the actual canon proves you wrong. Let's take the Grand Master of the TOR Order (Satele Shan), and pit her against the Grand Master of the PT Order (Yoda). Not only is it G-canon that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke, but his accolades prove him as such. He mastered the seven forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent. He could lift large starships like an X-Wing, mastered the use of Force Push and Force Wave to the extreme, could use Battle Meditation, could utilize Farsight to a similar degree as Darth Sidious, and could dissipate Force Lightning with his bare hands, even the Force lightning of Darth Sidious (who had the most powerful Force lightning ever). And finally, he was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

Satele has similar accolades and she is quite powerful, however, Yoda has proven himself to be her superior.

 

I'm sorry to burst your bubble and your well constructed argument (flawed as it is), but the Jedi Masters we see in the Prequels are simply superior to their predecessors. But that isn't to say that the OR Jedi are weak, it's just that the PT Jedi are on another level. Just as the TOR Jedi are on a higher level to the JCW Jedi. It's the natural progression of time and the advancement of teachings.

 

Final remarks- there is no myth. While you make good points and have a good theory, the actual canon disproves your theory. There is no myth.

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Why thank you! And your color is actually slightly different than mine apparently, so I'm not so broken up now :cool:

Eh, perhaps your posts inspired my selection of color.

"a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never attack" -Yoda

 

Ah, now this is rather easily explained. Why does any peace loving people arm themselves and train to fight? Because there is always an enemy who wishes to destroy them. Remember "The Jedi where the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." -Ben Kenobi. It may weaken them in the long run (if they actually have to fight), hence why they're such avid proponents of negotiation, but they'll still have to fight whenever the sith are around because they are the only ones who can stop the sith. The PT era Jedi get thousands of years of peace to train without the weariness of war. If they where at war for a thousand years, they'd be weaker.

Naturally, prolonged conflict will drain any organization's resources. I'm not saying that war builds anyone up, but rather that one of the side effects of conflict is that the people who execute the war gain valuable experience.

It just seems strange that the people who are most damaged by war, and have the least capacity to cope with its hardships, would be dedicating themselves as warriors.

You're using 'earth' reasoning again. We cannot feel the force and so it is difficult to understand the concept. However through reading the force-using character's thoughts and seeing the results of their actions, we know that war has a negative impact on the Light Side of the Force (the force as a whole really). Due to the hyper-sensitivity jedi have to the force. Imagine every time you killed, you could feel it. Every time a friend or enemy died you felt their life blink out of existence and you could feel the emotions of that soldier you are about to stab. The constant waves of fear, anger, grief ect... will wear you down. **Disclaimer- I'm trying to give you a sense of what the force feels like, but I certainly dont do it justice, its like everything I've said time ten.

Well, that's where I think you're mistaken. In real life, you're affected by killing. It carries an indescribable emotional toll, and it's something that soldiers have grappled with forever.

So, while the Jedi may have a more visceral sense of the emotions surrounding violence, it simply makes it easier for them to have empathy for the people around them. It is possible to create a duality within your own mind, however, where you acknowledge the emotions and humanity of your enemies but simultaneously steel yourself to carry out the war. This requires conviction in your cause, however, and a subtle understanding of compassion tempered with righteousness. Honestly, it sounds a lot like what Jedi should be striving for.

 

'Earth' reasoning here. You should let go of concepts like 'human nature' in topics regarding the force, as the force has its own nature that overrides the human one.

But the people using the Force are, for the most part, humans. Their interactions with the Force, and their experiences with life, will be largely governed by human nature. Part of what makes Star Wars so popular is our ability to identify with characters and the struggles they experience. If Jedi no longer have a connection to human nature, then they lose the majority of their story telling power because we can no longer identify with them as characters. The heart of science fiction is, interestingly, human nature.

 

The advanced technology and fantastic environments really just provide an exciting setting for human stories to play out. Without those characters, any science fiction milieu becomes uninteresting because it loses its ability to provoke emotional responses.

Edited by Ventessel
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Well this debate has kinda gone on without me... oh well, I'll do my best to keep up.

 

Firstly, Ventessel, you are severly downplaying the effectiveness of Soresu. Given that it was one of the most popular forms of the Jedi Order of all eras (it favored passivity and was very much in correlation with the Jedi Code), it must have had several advantages in lightsaber battle. And it did, take the following practioners:

 

Darth Zannah - she was trained in Soresu to make up for her slight form and with it confronted and defeated many powerful adversaries, including Bane himself.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi - the master of Soresu and with it challenged and defeated many powerful adversaries, including easily overcoming General Grievous, who had slain many Jedi in the past. And later used to defeat Anakin's Djem So - an aggressive form supposedly designed specifically for lightsaber combat.

 

Luminara Unduli - also a master of Soresu, she managed to go toe-to-toe with the powerful Asajj Ventress despite being blinded in one eye - her Padawan was also powerful.

 

What's more, to make up for the deficiencies in Soresu, it was often learned along side Ataru and Shien. And despite what Luke says about Ataru, Obi Wan Kenobi used to to great proficiency, as a Padawan. Take the following:

 

It was well-suited to close combat, particularly against single opponents. Due to its speed and agility, Ataru was recommended for use by Jedi with the ability to enhance their speed and stamina with the Force. ~ Wookieepedia.

 

It may have deficiencies, but you cannot nullify it as a redundant Form only usable in as a last resort. The same applies for the other forms, they were all designed (excluding Makashi) to combat blasters and lightsabers. I also never heard anyone saying Soresu was inadvisable against a lightsaber wielding opponent. Not to mention that deflecting blaster bolts does bear similarities to deflecting lightsabers e.g. the are both fast and accurate attacks which require precise and equally rapid responses. Defense tends to have a universal aspect to it e.g. a shield can defend against arrows and well as swords.

 

Let's also remember that only Makashi fell into disuse because it was not adaptable, the likes of Ataru, Djem So and Jar'Kai still remained practiced by many members of the Order. And I agree, Juyo has an advantage over Soresu, but my point was that Juyo was rarely practiced by Jedi across all eras because of its aggressiveness. It was essentially a Sith form and few Jedi had the aptitude to master it.

 

Also, we cannot compare Star Wars with real world happenings, the dilution of the 'black belt' was (and I'm no expert) not because there was no need for martial arts anymore, but because karate became commercialized (although that may have been because of the former). Lightsaber combat, as far as I'm aware, has not become commercialized. And we have no evidence to suggest that the title of 'master' - in relation to a form - has lost or gained any weight over the millennia. If anything it is the latter, because forms would logically naturally improve and be refined over time - another point in favour for the PT Order.

 

Concerning war, I would completely agree that despite the Jedi's proficiency in lightsaber etc. they are not suited for war. War causes chaos, death, emotions and suffering - that benefits the Sith not the Jedi. Hence why the Jedi are guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. The Jedi are most certainly not an order of warriors, that is an entirely distorted view and if Master Yoda were here he would certainly be reprimanding you. Take the following:

 

"The best blades are those kept in their sheaths." ~ Tythonese Sky Judge Culoph.

 

"More fundamental than even Form I is Form Zero - finding a non-violent solution to any problem you encounter"

~ Jedi Battlemaster Skarch Vaunk.

 

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." ~ Yoda.

 

"A Jedi's first concern is to preserve life." ~ Kol Skywalker.

 

The title of 'warrior' for a Jedi is secondary, their primary titles are 'negotiator' and 'peacemaker'. War and violence is always a last resort, both due to the effect it has on others and the Living Force, and through that, the Jedi themselves. Lets also remember that this is especially important in terms of a Jedi, you say maitaining calm and focus is important for everyone, but it is especially important for a Jedi, because of the Force. Unbalance from the Force could be fatal, and will prevent a Jedi from reaching their full potential. Also, not all Jedi are perfect, and few can maintain complete focus during times of intense war. Even the greatest of Jedi Masters have succumbed to this.

 

Concerning the Clone Wars, you make a good point, war even against droids can be difficult on a Jedi. However in a war with clones and droids, that threat is significantly diminished. Yes Jedi can become attached to clones, but not so much that they cannot let go of those attachments. And when fighting droids then cannot draw off their emotions, or allow the emotions of the droids to cloud their vision. Of course war is war however, and not all Jedi were immune to this e.g. Nahdar Vebb. In this sense, I would more attribute (and this is a point I ignored) the 'blindness' etc of the Jedi to Sidious and the growing power of the Sith. Indeed as Yoda says:

 

"Hmmm. The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is."

 

Apologies for the contradiction their, I guess I got a little carried away...

 

Concerning Kenobi, he is one of the Jedi who would have been able to rise above the tides of war - one significantly diminished by its nature - and not feel its negative effects. Obi-Wan is one of them. Lets also remember that constant practice against droids is bound to hone your abilities in Soresu, its like a training exercise. Also, he was merely honing his ability, the 10 year period beforehand made up for the larger portion of his abilities.

 

And concerning Mical, you do realise that the Jedi Civil War was during the period of the Old Republic? Lets not lose sight of what were debating here - OR Jedi vs PT Jedi, not Jedi with combat experience against Jedi without. Your argument about Mical not being trustworthy is also pure speculation, if we are skeptical of everything then this debate becomes pointless. The fact that Meetra knew him, that he recognised Kreia, that he was naive, innocent and overly trusting, and that he was Force-sensitive seems to heavily imply this is the case anyway.

 

And for your point about, 'almost every Jedi worth noting lived in times of conflict' - please name some. Do you perhaps refer to the likes of Revan, Exar Kun and Ulic? The ones who fell to the dark side and attacked the Republic? Or perhaps you refer to Bastila Shan who lost her lightsaber and was captured by a swoop gang? I suggest you visit this page. And consult the 'Notable members' for the facts. You'll notice that 65% of those Jedi lived in times of peace, not war - so its actually quite the opposite. And that's including Bastila and Revan, without them its around 80%.

 

EDIT: I also notice you say war is a 'swift, harsh teacher' - that is true, and many Jedi die because of it and so future generations lack teachers to train them.

Edited by Beniboybling
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edit: just had a thought! Think of how many Jedi went to the Dark Side in OR and how many went Dark Side on PT, you'll find many more fallen Jedi in the war-torn periods.
Indeed, in fact in the Mandalorian Wars almost the entire Jedi Order fell to the dark side! And some of the so called greatest duelists of the OR era were in fact Sith at one point in their lives. War corrupts Jedi, hence why they always attempt to steer clear of it. Edited by Beniboybling
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I think i kinda need to reiterate this how many masters of saber combat were there in the OR compared to the PT, lets look.

OR Jedi

Revan Reborn: no confirmed saber form mastery, but was considered to be a master of saber combat (similar to Agen Kolar and Sassee Tin not having confirmed saber forms but were still masters of saber combat) also only became powerful enough to challenge PT masters after regaining his memories that he had as a sith and jedi.

 

Jaric Kaedan: Master of his own style of Form VII: Juyo'Ko's, defeated the Dread Masters (all 6 together in his prime)

 

Exar Kun: Master of Form VI: Niman with a double-bladed lightsaber defeated the greatest jedi masters of his time easily (his saber mastery was so ahead of his time that his power would be considered timeless) again only became powerful after becoming sith

 

Satele Shan: No confirmed mastery of a saber form and has never defeated any noteworth sith, likewise with any other jedi of this age

 

PT Jedi

Yoda: Mastered all 7 forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent

Mace Windu: Mastered all 7 forms and invented his own variant of Form VII: Vaapad

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Mastered Soresu to its highest extent with variations of Ataru implemented

Count Dooku: Mastered Makashi to its highest extent even before he became sith

Anakin Skywalker: Mastered Djem So before he became sith (as a sith he perfected it to its highest extent)

Plo Koon: Mastered Djem So, just not quite to the extent of Anakin

Ki-Adi Mundi: Mastered Ataru

Kit Fitso: Mastered Shii-cho to its highest extent (making it viable in saber combat)

Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin: like Revan no confirmed mastery of a saber form but were considere to be masters of saber combat

Shaak Ti: combined parts of Ataru and Makashi together into her own style and was considered a master of saber combat

Aayla Secura: Mastered Ataru with some skill in Djem So

Quinlan Vos: Mastered Ataru

Cin Drallig: Mastered every form of saber combat except Juyo

 

Where i can name few jedi about 4 (but i may have ommited a few) who were masters of saber combat in the OR (and most of them gained their power after becoming sith at some point in their lives) i can name countless jedi who were masters of saber combat in the PT (here i definitely omitted more than a few which makes up for omitting the OR jedi). Need i say more really cause i dont know any better way to show this. Aurbere and Beni have done an excellent job proving this myth as sheer fact but i just feel like building on it.

Edited by Darkondo
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I think i kinda need to reiterate this how many masters of saber combat were there in the OR compared to the PT, lets look.

OR Jedi

Revan Reborn: no confirmed saber form mastery, but was considered to be a master of saber combat (similar to Agen Kolar and Sassee Tin not having confirmed saber forms but were still masters of saber combat) also only became powerful enough to challenge PT masters after regaining his memories that he had as a sith and jedi.

 

Jaric Kaedan: Master of his own style of Form VII: Juyo'Ko's, defeated the Dread Masters (all 6 together in his prime)

 

Exar Kun: Master of Form VI: Niman with a double-bladed lightsaber defeated the greatest jedi masters of his time easily (his saber mastery was so ahead of his time that his power would be considered timeless) again only became powerful after becoming sith

 

Satele Shan: No confirmed mastery of a saber form and has never defeated any noteworth sith, likewise with any other jedi of this age

 

PT Jedi

Yoda: Mastered all 7 forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent

Mace Windu: Mastered all 7 forms and invented his own variant of Form VII: Vaapad

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Mastered Soresu to its highest extent with variations of Ataru implemented

Count Dooku: Mastered Makashi to its highest extent even before he became sith

Anakin Skywalker: Mastered Djem So before he became sith (as a sith he perfected it to its highest extent)

Plo Koon: Mastered Djem So, just not quite to the extent of Anakin

Ki-Adi Mundi: Mastered Ataru

Kit Fitso: Mastered Shii-cho to its highest extent (making it viable in saber combat)

Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin: like Revan no confirmed mastery of a saber form but were considere to be masters of saber combat

Shaak Ti: combined parts of Ataru and Makashi together into her own style and was considered a master of saber combat

Aayla Secura: Mastered Ataru with some skill in Djem So

Quinlan Vos: Mastered Ataru

Cin Drallig: Mastered every form of saber combat except Juyo

 

Where i can name few jedi about 4 (but i may have ommited a few) who were masters of saber combat in the OR (and most of them gained their power after becoming sith at some point in their lives) i can name countless jedi who were masters of saber combat in the PT (here i definitely omitted more than a few which makes up for omitting the OR jedi). Need i say more really cause i dont know any better way to show this. Aurbere and Beni have done an excellent job proving this myth as sheer fact but i just feel like building on it.

 

I am still not satisfied - I still see a lot of opinion - Sure there were some of the most powerful Jedi ever like Yoda, Mace, Anakin etc..... But to say that the PT Jedi as a whole are more powerful than all those that came before it... I just don't know....

 

I think a lot of these Jedi somewhat 'ride the coat-tails' of the top ones I meantined - when they are clearly not in the Same League - for instance you have the Jedi accompanying Windu who were considered amongst the top duellists of the Jedi Order - they died in SECONDS to Sidious - Windu alone lasted much longer - Proving a great gulf in individual ability between himself and these other so-called top Jedi.... so ability such as Windu, Yoda, Anakin, Obi Wan is still extremely rare even in this era and Should not be used as the 'measuring stick' for the PT Jedi.......

When Jedi of this era are being compared to other Jedi/Sith of other era - I still think it should be done on an Individual Basis and not the blanket 'PT Jedi are the most powerful'

 

You mentioned quite a lot of Duellists in your list and listed their Accomplishments...

I for instance would take Exar Kun in a fight over most of them

 

The Weapon master of the PT Era Cin Drallig was a master of 6 styles and had a working knowledge (not mastery of Juyo)

Blademaster Kas'im was a Blademaster from over 1000 years before the PT era and he was a master of ALL 7 styles of Lightsaber combat -and beyond that he individually speciallised in the extremely Rare Duel-Wielding Ataru style.....

Not Only to me is this more impressive than Cin Drallig but the Vast majority of what the PT Jedi achieved in lightsaber combat - Yet people would try to argue that someone like Kit Fisto who essentially just mastered Shii Cho (which is a fundamentally limited style for duelling) could beat him??? - I can't buy that - by the sheer facts alone... especially that a lot of these other styles had specific abilities designed to over come Shii Cho and Kas'im would know ALL of them......

I can see that you are intelligent folk and put together some good arguments - but If you were to be totally honest based on Fact alone - surely someone like Blademaster Kas'im has got to at least make you think about things?

and then that opens up the door for other exceptional individuals from the past......

 

Also I would like to see the Canon where George Lucas actually says that the PT Jedi are more powerful than every Jedi that came before them - because if it is what he says on the DVD commentary - I think it is open to interpretation.....there has to be some other source out there that unequivocally proves it before I accept it as a fact

 

and with all due respect - don't just tell me it exists....please show me (and obviously a source from Lucas himself and not wookiepedia)

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The Old jedi would be stronger then the new jedi.

If you even use the example that obi-wan and anikin got better as the clone wars went on (which they did and by quite a bit) then the jedi who were always surrounded by wars (so old republic) would be far stronger as a whole. howe can jedi whom have not had to fight any real opponents for a 1000 years be stronger then the ones who have. they can't. and meditating for 1000 years would not beat say exar kunn, revan, sion etc. even the sith have admitted this, can you imagine windu or yoda standing up to bane.. (not that I can imagine anyone for long, not to say that no one could )

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I am still not satisfied - I still see a lot of opinion - Sure there were some of the most powerful Jedi ever like Yoda, Mace, Anakin etc..... But to say that the PT Jedi as a whole are more powerful than all those that came before it... I just don't know....

 

I think a lot of these Jedi somewhat 'ride the coat-tails' of the top ones I meantined - when they are clearly not in the Same League - for instance you have the Jedi accompanying Windu who were considered amongst the top duellists of the Jedi Order - they died in SECONDS to Sidious - Windu alone lasted much longer - Proving a great gulf in individual ability between himself and these other so-called top Jedi.... so ability such as Windu, Yoda, Anakin, Obi Wan is still extremely rare even in this era and Should not be used as the 'measuring stick' for the PT Jedi.......

When Jedi of this era are being compared to other Jedi/Sith of other era - I still think it should be done on an Individual Basis and not the blanket 'PT Jedi are the most powerful'

 

You mentioned quite a lot of Duellists in your list and listed their Accomplishments...

I for instance would take Exar Kun in a fight over most of them

 

The Weapon master of the PT Era Cin Drallig was a master of 6 styles and had a working knowledge (not mastery of Juyo)

Blademaster Kas'im was a Blademaster from over 1000 years before the PT era and he was a master of ALL 7 styles of Lightsaber combat -and beyond that he individually speciallised in the extremely Rare Duel-Wielding Ataru style.....

Not Only to me is this more impressive than Cin Drallig but the Vast majority of what the PT Jedi achieved in lightsaber combat - Yet people would try to argue that someone like Kit Fisto who essentially just mastered Shii Cho (which is a fundamentally limited style for duelling) could beat him??? - I can't buy that - by the sheer facts alone... especially that a lot of these other styles had specific abilities designed to over come Shii Cho and Kas'im would know ALL of them......

I can see that you are intelligent folk and put together some good arguments - but If you were to be totally honest based on Fact alone - surely someone like Blademaster Kas'im has got to at least make you think about things?

and then that opens up the door for other exceptional individuals from the past......

 

Also I would like to see the Canon where George Lucas actually says that the PT Jedi are more powerful than every Jedi that came before them - because if it is what he says on the DVD commentary - I think it is open to interpretation.....there has to be some other source out there that unequivocally proves it before I accept it as a fact

 

and with all due respect - don't just tell me it exists....please show me (and obviously a source from Lucas himself and not wookiepedia)

 

Like i said Exar Kun's power is timeless, his skill with the blade was so advanced in his time that he beat the jedi's greatest masters at the time, easily. His former master Vodo Baas who was considered the greatest saber duelist of the jedi at the time, was being toyed with throughout his entire duel with Kun. The only PT jedi i see beating Kun would have to be Mace Windu or Yoda, no one else.

 

Blademaster Kas'im who defeated him again? Darth Bane, the weakest of his Banite line and that was before he reached his prime in power or even became Darth Bane as well. The Brotherhood of Darkness was considered an all time low for sith orders in terms of power. They were so weak that they were unsalvageable and Bane had to destroy them in order to rebuild sith strengh. Sure he may have mastered the 7 forms, but to what degree did he master them? And how well could he implement them?

 

Kit Fitso mastered Shii-cho to the point where it became viable in terms of overall combat. Also saber skills arent his main focus, he is a consular after all. But he did last longer against Sidious then Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin who specialized and were considered masters in saber combat. Fitso was even able to parry a few blows. I admit Kas'im does look better than Cin Drallig on paper. But Kas'im was great in the weakest sith order to date, and he wasnt even the most powerful in that order to boot.

 

I enjoy that point on Kas'im, it really makes you think about things although my knowledge on Drallig outside of lightsaber mastery and duel with Vader is a bit vague.

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Like i said Exar Kun's power is timeless, his skill with the blade was so advanced in his time that he beat the jedi's greatest masters at the time, easily. His former master Vodo Baas who was considered the greatest saber duelist of the jedi at the time, was being toyed with throughout his entire duel with Kun. The only PT jedi i see beating Kun would have to be Mace Windu or Yoda, no one else.

 

Blademaster Kas'im who defeated him again? Darth Bane, the weakest of his Banite line and that was before he reached his prime in power or even became Darth Bane as well. The Brotherhood of Darkness was considered an all time low for sith orders in terms of power. They were so weak that they were unsalvageable and Bane had to destroy them in order to rebuild sith strengh. Sure he may have mastered the 7 forms, but to what degree did he master them? And how well could he implement them?

 

Kit Fitso mastered Shii-cho to the point where it became viable in terms of overall combat. Also saber skills arent his main focus, he is a consular after all. But he did last longer against Sidious then Agen Kolar and Sassee Tiin who specialized and were considered masters in saber combat. Fitso was even able to parry a few blows. I admit Kas'im does look better than Cin Drallig on paper. But Kas'im was great in the weakest sith order to date, and he wasnt even the most powerful in that order to boot.

 

I enjoy that point on Kas'im, it really makes you think about things although my knowledge on Drallig outside of lightsaber mastery and duel with Vader is a bit vague.

 

I see what you are saying there - but in a discussion that have a lot of opinions in them, any actual facts we do have should be pertinent....

 

Fact: Cin drallig master of 6 lightsaber Forms - (Working knowledge but not mastery of Juyo)

Fact: Blademaster Ka'sim master of All 7 styles and individual Specialist in Duel-wield Ataru

 

it's just frustrating at times - that when we actually do have something to compare - it can get ignored if it doesn't quite fit in with people's own personal Opinions.....(not saying you :) )

 

I wasn't really talking about Ka'sim's overall power - but his accomplishments with Lightsaber Mastery (knowledge so to speak) - Bane did have to resort to the force to beat him as Bane was being beaten in the actual lightsaber combat itself.....(perhaps Ka'sim realised that he was not the most powerful of the force users so concentrated on Blade skills to give him some kind of edge - as may well be the case with many that become Blademasters - powerful in the force but not THE most powerful in their orders....)

 

 

It is hard to judge Mastery - why should Ka'sim's be more invalid than anyone else's? - there was no questioning of his mastery in the books he was flat out stated to be a Master....and he was skilled in the usage of double bladed and duel-wielding sabers so he does demonstrate a pretty complete overall skillset

 

Would Musashi not be considered a great sword master in this day and age because he was around hundreds of years ago?

 

Bane became more powerful but became a bit sloppier with the saber due to the protection of the Orbalisks and being able to fight more recklessly making errors that he wouldn't normally make -

Ka'sim seems like the type that was very focused on his blade skills and had he lived would have probably kept improving

 

I think the Brotherhood may have been somewhat weak in its overall structure and orgainisation, however it's defeat was in large part to betrayal - I'm not sure how weak they were in actual personal power (for instance that Lord Kaan Battle Meditation was pretty impressive - how much PT jedi did you see doing something like that - would have sure helped on Geonosis huh? - Bastilla Shan of thousands of years ago may have been handy to have around then.....) and Bane himself certainly did not consider Lord Kaan weak at all....

The Brotherhood was not Bane's own personal vision of how the Sith should be so he plotted their downfall....

 

But perhaps the Brotherhood lost an overall path and focus to the Sith vision....... and you could definitely level similar critisism to the PT Jedi - they lost to plotting/betrayal and they lost worse than ANY Jedi order in the history of the Jedi - at no other point in history did the Sith gain such a complete dominance of the entire Galaxy than after beating the PT jedi.....

We all agree that Grandmaster Yoda was one of the most powerful ever - should I dismiss him out of hand as overrated now because his Jedi order got beaten so completely?

Sometimes you have to take circumstance into account the same way and perhaps re-evaluate things and consider that some the individuals in Brotherhood could actually be pretty damn good.....

 

As I said before - just the admittance that Kun is up there even against the most Powerful Jedi of the PT kind of leaves the door open now - and it can no longer be considered a hard and fast Rule that the PT jedi would be greater than every individual that came before it......

 

And even with the Banite line it is not without its flaws - the transition can sometimes be a knife edge - the fight between Bane and Zannah could have gone either way - we know Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep.....so victory is not necessarily proof of greater mastery in all areas - because even with this rule sometimes you may be forced to strike at the most opportune moment lest you get killed or replaced - sometimes your hand gets forced earlier than you might want to - or before everything gets passed on - ( when they were killed....Bane was Still superior to Zannah in lightsaber Combat and Plagueis was still Greater than Sidious at midichlorian manipulation) - so even against other Banite Sith I wouldn't dismiss Bane completely out of hand.

The Student had to overcome their own master - so they probably directed their efforts into focusing on that particular Master's flaws - it is possible that Bane may have had the skillset to beat some of the masters that came after him - as we know fights are not ABC logic.....(ie. Obi wan - Dooku- Anakin)

 

Sorry for going on and on - I just want to make people at least question things and evaluate things on individual circumstance and merit before accepting these types of hard and fast rules......

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I'm sorry to burst your bubble and your well constructed argument (flawed as it is), but the Jedi Masters we see in the Prequels are simply superior to their predecessors. But that isn't to say that the OR Jedi are weak, it's just that the PT Jedi are on another level. Just as the TOR Jedi are on a higher level to the JCW Jedi. It's the natural progression of time and the advancement of teachings.

You are extrapolating quite a bit there. Nothing suggests that the TOR Jedi are a tier above the JCW Jedi. And let's be serious, you're telling me that in the Star Wars galaxy, a place where we see only marginal technological development over the course of about 20,000 years that time plays such a powerful role in the advancement of the Jedi?

 

That just runs against the entire theme that we see connecting the different eras of technology. The only argument that favors the absolute superiority of the PT Jedi over all others is that a thousand years of peace after the Ruusan Reformations have made them impossibly skilled and powerful, both with lightsabers and the Force.

 

The foremost argument supporting this theory is that the respective leaders of the Jedi and Sith, Yoda and Sidious, are the most powerful beings to grace the galaxy ever, until Luke Skywalker apparently becomes some kind of Force God or something. Every argument I've seen that supports Yoda/Sidious' power is that they were the only ones able to fight each other. It's hopelessly circular logic, saying that Yoda was powerful because he could compete with Sidious, but Sidious was powerful because he could thrash Yoda, etc etc.

 

All of the god-like powers ascribed the Sidious were developed in the Post-RotJ EU, so there is no evidence that he had those powers when he fought Yoda. When they fight, we see them throwing stuff at each other and tossing around some force lightning. This is nothing that hasn't been done before, by Jedi in by-gone eras battling Sith Lords.

 

Yes, George Lucas says they're the strongest in their Orders. He also says that he wishes the entire Post-RotJ EU hadn't happened, and that he doesn't approve of it. So the majority of Sidious' powers don't jive with Lucas' vision. Let's leave George Lucas out of this for now and strictly consider what we can see and observe within the Star Wars universe.

And yet, the actual canon proves you wrong. Let's take the Grand Master of the TOR Order (Satele Shan), and pit her against the Grand Master of the PT Order (Yoda). Not only is it G-canon that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi Pre-Luke, but his accolades prove him as such. He mastered the seven forms and mastered Ataru to its highest extent. He could lift large starships like an X-Wing, mastered the use of Force Push and Force Wave to the extreme, could use Battle Meditation, could utilize Farsight to a similar degree as Darth Sidious, and could dissipate Force Lightning with his bare hands, even the Force lightning of Darth Sidious (who had the most powerful Force lightning ever). And finally, he was able to hold his own against Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

Satele has similar accolades and she is quite powerful, however, Yoda has proven himself to be her superior.

There is an almost absurd level of information on every minor character to ever appear onscreen in the Star Wars films. To list specific accomplishments and name names of different Jedi in each era is an illogical comparison because exponentially more time has been devoted to examining every second of the PT Era, while the OR Era is still a developing part of the canon. You say that Satele and Yoda have similar accolades, but Yoda has "proven himself to be her superior".

 

When did he prove this? Did they have a duel, or competition with the Force? A battle of wits, perhaps?

 

The truth is that they never met. They lived in different eras and a direct comparison is difficult at best. The only way to consider possibilities is to analyze the circumstances surrounding the Jedi Order when they each lived and attempt to draw conclusions from there.

 

My premise is quite simple:

Jedi who routinely fought in lightsaber battles have superior dueling skills to those who did not.

 

An outgrowth of this premise is that the PT Jedi, who rarely saw lightsaber combat, were not as experienced in this style of combat as Jedi who lived in Eras where it was common. Please try not to see this as "PT vs. OR" but rather as an analysis of the ebb and flow of combat experience within the Jedi Order from its inception to extinction. So the "myth" that exists is that the PT Jedi were these demi-gods of dueling, who would trounce anyone from any other time period in melee combat.

 

If anything it is the latter, because forms would logically naturally improve and be refined over time - another point in favour for the PT Order.

The lightsaber forms that the Jedi learn in the PT Era are referred to as the "classic" forms. Not the 'revised' forms, or the 'modern forms'. The classic forms. They learn almost exactly the same lightsaber techniques as the OR Jedi do.

 

The only exception to this is Mace Windu developing Vapaad. I applaud Master Windu for his efforts, but he only taught one student his new form before he died. Hardly revolutionizing lightsaber techniques for the order as a whole, don't you say?

 

You say I left out several points that contradicted my argument, but really you only listed a single exception, which is Yoda's case. But he's nine hundred years old. I imagine that during his ridiculously long life, he'd be able to acquire enough experience to become formidable with a lightsaber. However, his case really is exceptional. What I'm considering are the humanoid races with measurable lifespans, who will experience "generations" in a meaningful sense.

Ataru was recommended for use by Jedi with the ability to enhance their speed and stamina with the Force.[/i] ~ Wookieepedia

 

It may have deficiencies, but you cannot nullify it as a redundant Form only usable in as a last resort.

Don't listen to me, listen to Grand Master Skywalker:

"This style of fighting was taught to me by Master Yoda. In most cases, you will not use it as a first resort, but you'll find it often works as a last resort."

~Luke Skywalker to two students

"This form was also considered not as effective for prolonged combat, as the nature of Ataru could greatly tax the body."

"Ataru practitioners were advised to withdraw if they were unable to win after a devastating burst of Ataru attacks" ~Wookiepedia

So, yes, Ataru is best for rapidly finishing a duel. And the supposed "greatest duelist ever" in the Jedi Order advises using it as a last resort.

Firstly, Ventessel, you are severly downplaying the effectiveness of Soresu. Given that it was one of the most popular forms of the Jedi Order of all eras (it favored passivity and was very much in correlation with the Jedi Code), it must have had several advantages in lightsaber battle

 

Darth Zannah - she was trained in Soresu to make up for her slight form and with it confronted and defeated many powerful adversaries, including Bane himself.

I am not downplaying Soresu, only pointing out its limitations in offensive applications, which are what finish duels.

I will quote Zannah's Wookiepedia page extensively:

"The Form III tenets of patience and cunning that Zannah learned from Bane[3] also allowed her to easily defeat Set Harth's mastery of the fourth lightsaber combat form, Ataru. While dueling Harth in his mansion, Zannah capitalized on his mistakes, which ultimately resulted from Harth's own arrogance and impatience; this allowed her to attack him with a spell of insanity"

"Without the application of her sorcery, however, Zannah would have eventually fallen to Xaj's superior physical strength"

"During her confrontation with Bane in the Stone Prison, she successfully cornered him multiple times, but despite the Dark Lord's lack of a weapon, she was unable to kill him. Later, during her final duel with Darth Bane, her Master overwhelmed her defenses with his powerful attacks, and she was forced to resort to her sorcery to defeat him"

What I'm saying is that Soresu only works in combination with another form. Even Obi-Wan used Ataru's offensive aspects to augment his Soresu. Arguably, his move that finished Darth Vader on Mustafar was an outgrowth of Makashi's elaborate parries and attacks of opportunity.

Not to mention that deflecting blaster bolts does bear similarities to deflecting lightsabers e.g. the are both fast and accurate attacks which require precise and equally rapid responses. Defense tends to have a universal aspect to it e.g. a shield can defend against arrows and well as swords.

Naturally, the PT Era Jedi were likely excellent practitioners of Soresu, and the defensive applications will have some overlap. However, blaster deflection is rather different from parrying a lightsaber. The bolt from a blaster travels a linear path and does not fight back. When you lock blades with your enemy, there is a tremendous amount of thought and skill which goes into what happens immediately after the parry occurs. Almost all effective saber techniques (such as flowing water cut, or other Star Wars-y names for established slashes and techniques) rely on making contact and manipulating the enemy's blade to create an opening for yourself. This is why I argue that experience in combat is a powerful factor in your ability to "read" a moment in a duel and exploit it to your advantage.

 

Lets also remember that this is especially important in terms of a Jedi, you say maitaining calm and focus is important for everyone, but it is especially important for a Jedi, because of the Force. Unbalance from the Force could be fatal, and will prevent a Jedi from reaching their full potential. Also, not all Jedi are perfect, and few can maintain complete focus during times of intense war. Even the greatest of Jedi Masters have succumbed to this.

You know, I pored over the articles on Wookiepedia regarding the Jedi Order, the Force, and Lightsaber Combat. Nowhere in there did it say that Jedi are especially degraded by war, any more so than an ordinary soldier is strained psychologically and emotionally by combat. Seeing as how it is so fundamental to your point of view, could you please outline how you arrived at this conclusion?

 

Concerning the Clone Wars, you make a good point, war even against droids can be difficult on a Jedi. However in a war with clones and droids, that threat is significantly diminished. Yes Jedi can become attached to clones, but not so much that they cannot let go of those attachments. And when fighting droids then cannot draw off their emotions, or allow the emotions of the droids to cloud their vision.

So it's easier to let go of attachments to clones? Doesn't that seem to make the Republic's war effort highly immoral, that they are producing these soldiers and callously discarding their lives. When a volunteer gives his life to defend the Republic, you can derive some measure of peace from that. You know that he made the ultimate sacrifice to protect what he loves, and that can spur you on to see that fight through to the end, as difficult as it might be, because you're fighting for something you believe in.

 

The Clones are abused by the Republic. They are bred for war, and never given any choice in the matter. Their free will is overwritten with "programming" and they are expended in battle the same way bullets or ordnance is. If anything, that monstrous abuse should create echoes in the Force on a scale unlike anything seen before.

 

And concerning Mical, you do realise that the Jedi Civil War was during the period of the Old Republic? Lets not lose sight of what were debating here - OR Jedi vs PT Jedi, not Jedi with combat experience against Jedi without.

Well, you've kind of got that backwards. I am calling into question the lightsaber mastery of the PT Jedi, and comparing their combat experiences with those of Jedi from either the Jedi Civil War or the Great Galactic War. As this discussion has gone on, I suppose my understanding of the situation has evolved somewhat.

 

And Mical is still only representative of the tail end of the Jedi Civil War, when the Order had been reduced to less than a hundred knights. Let's forget that kid, nobody really liked him anyways, he was too starry-eyed and idealistic.

 

And for your point about, 'almost every Jedi worth noting lived in times of conflict' - please name some. .

You know, I'm glad you asked. :jawa_evil: Here goes!

Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda, Mace Windu, Bastila Shan, Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, Odan-Ur, Corran Horn, Cin Drallig, Kavar, Cay Qel-Droma, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, Skarch Vaunk, Belth Allusis, Meetra Surik...

You get the idea. Would you mind returning the favor and listing Jedi who lived in peaceful times and were considered to be remarkable duelists? Heck, just list the Jedi who didn't serve in a war, I know I can't think of any...

Like it or not, the Jedi Order is defined by conflict. They have little purpose outside of warfare, and occasionally negotiating (I've rarely seen them do that successfully, though).

Exar Kun: Master of Form VI: Niman with a double-bladed lightsaber defeated the greatest jedi masters of his time easily (his saber mastery was so ahead of his time that his power would be considered timeless) again only became powerful after becoming sith.

I guess Exar Kun would disagree with you. Or is that because he's an OR Jedi/Sith?

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I hadn't really looked into Niman because I didn't know of anyone who used it and didn't get killed immediately (like every Jedi in the Geonosis Arena...)

So I studied what Form VI was all about and actually found it very much to my liking. Why? Because it relies on creativity and intuition in combat, rather than rote training. So for an experienced duelist, Niman allows flexibility and adaptation instead of blindly following the techniques you've memorized. I really like this, as it gives us a clear spectrum of ability. Duelists who are not experienced and attempt to stick to Niman die, whereas a true master is one who has learned to use Niman to dominate the landscape of a duel, such as Exar Kun. For example:

 

"Exar Kun chose to specialize in Niman, and while there was little doubt that he found the dual-blade training regiments useful when he converted his lightsaber into a double-bladed weapon, he often preferred to fight with a single blade. His skill marked him as one of the finest duelists of his era."

"However, rather than adhere to its philosophy of moderation over aggression, Kun was a vicious duelist who favored brutal power moves and had little compunction against lashing out against his foes with physical attacks. These tendencies were exacerbated by his turn to the Dark Side of the Force, when he actively took to drawing on his rage in combat. However, while he failed to observe the core concepts of Form VI, Kun was never defeated in a lightsaber duel."

 

"Jedi Master Cin Drallig was considered the most prolific instructor of Form VI, as he was of the five forms below it, teaching Niman to thousands of students during his Jedi career. However, despite his skills and mastery, he was easily cut down by the Form V specialist Darth Vader during the Great Jedi Purge."

 

So, this appears to be another form that really comes into its own when practiced by an aggressive duelist. Kind of horribly ironic that the "diplomat" form considered the ideal for Jedi Consulars is actually one of the most flexible, aggressive forms when used correctly. Heh heh heh. :jawa_evil:

I also notice you say war is a 'swift, harsh teacher' - that is true, and many Jedi die because of it and so future generations lack teachers to train them.

But the ones who survive will be stronger for it, and make for the most formidable duelists.

Indeed, in fact in the Mandalorian Wars almost the entire Jedi Order fell to the dark side! And some of the so called greatest duelists of the OR era were in fact Sith at one point in their lives. War corrupts Jedi, hence why they always attempt to steer clear of it.

The Mandalorian Wars, and the Jedi Civil War that followed, were the direct result of Revan's covert war to convert the Jedi to his side. This was no ordinary conflict, but one in which Revan's assassins and agents kidnapped and turned Jedi actively. Revan deliberately turned Jedi to his side, so it's not like they just randomly decided to join the Sith for no reason. He was trying very carefully to consolidate his rule.

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I see what you are saying there - but in a discussion that have a lot of opinions in them, any actual facts we do have should be pertinent....

 

Fact: Cin drallig master of 6 lightsaber Forms - (Working knowledge but not mastery of Juyo)

Fact: Blademaster Ka'sim master of All 7 styles and individual Specialist in Duel-wield Ataru

 

it's just frustrating at times - that when we actually do have something to compare - it can get ignored if it doesn't quite fit in with people's own personal Opinions.....(not saying you :) )

 

I wasn't really talking about Ka'sim's overall power - but his accomplishments with Lightsaber Mastery (knowledge so to speak) - Bane did have to resort to the force to beat him as Bane was being beaten in the actual lightsaber combat itself.....(perhaps Ka'sim realised that he was not the most powerful of the force users so concentrated on Blade skills to give him some kind of edge - as may well be the case with many that become Blademasters - powerful in the force but not THE most powerful in their orders....)

 

 

It is hard to judge Mastery - why should Ka'sim's be more invalid than anyone else's? - there was no questioning of his mastery in the books he was flat out stated to be a Master....and he was skilled in the usage of double bladed and duel-wielding sabers so he does demonstrate a pretty complete overall skillset

 

Would Musashi not be considered a great sword master in this day and age because he was around hundreds of years ago?

 

Bane became more powerful but became a bit sloppier with the saber due to the protection of the Orbalisks and being able to fight more recklessly making errors that he wouldn't normally make -

Ka'sim seems like the type that was very focused on his blade skills and had he lived would have probably kept improving

 

I think the Brotherhood may have been somewhat weak in its overall structure and orgainisation, however it's defeat was in large part to betrayal - I'm not sure how weak they were in actual personal power (for instance that Lord Kaan Battle Meditation was pretty impressive - how much PT jedi did you see doing something like that - would have sure helped on Geonosis huh? - Bastilla Shan of thousands of years ago may have been handy to have around then.....) and Bane himself certainly did not consider Lord Kaan weak at all....

The Brotherhood was not Bane's own personal vision of how the Sith should be so he plotted their downfall....

 

But perhaps the Brotherhood lost an overall path and focus to the Sith vision....... and you could definitely level similar critisism to the PT Jedi - they lost to plotting/betrayal and they lost worse than ANY Jedi order in the history of the Jedi - at no other point in history did the Sith gain such a complete dominance of the entire Galaxy than after beating the PT jedi.....

We all agree that Grandmaster Yoda was one of the most powerful ever - should I dismiss him out of hand as overrated now because his Jedi order got beaten so completely?

Sometimes you have to take circumstance into account the same way and perhaps re-evaluate things and consider that some the individuals in Brotherhood could actually be pretty damn good.....

 

As I said before - just the admittance that Kun is up there even against the most Powerful Jedi of the PT kind of leaves the door open now - and it can no longer be considered a hard and fast Rule that the PT jedi would be greater than every individual that came before it......

 

And even with the Banite line it is not without its flaws - the transition can sometimes be a knife edge - the fight between Bane and Zannah could have gone either way - we know Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep.....so victory is not necessarily proof of greater mastery in all areas - because even with this rule sometimes you may be forced to strike at the most opportune moment lest you get killed or replaced - sometimes your hand gets forced earlier than you might want to - or before everything gets passed on - ( when they were killed....Bane was Still superior to Zannah in lightsaber Combat and Plagueis was still Greater than Sidious at midichlorian manipulation) - so even against other Banite Sith I wouldn't dismiss Bane completely out of hand.

The Student had to overcome their own master - so they probably directed their efforts into focusing on that particular Master's flaws - it is possible that Bane may have had the skillset to beat some of the masters that came after him - as we know fights are not ABC logic.....(ie. Obi wan - Dooku- Anakin)

 

Sorry for going on and on - I just want to make people at least question things and evaluate things on individual circumstance and merit before accepting these types of hard and fast rules......

 

Glad to see someone breaking out of the paradigm that holds the PT Era Jedi up to an impossible and unfounded standard. You raise excellent points, especially about the Banite Sith.

 

In fact, Bane's vision really didn't turn out to be Sith Lord A trains Sith Lord B, who gets more "powerful" (whatever that means... pretty vague word, 'powerful') than Sith Lord A and kills him. Then trains Sith Lord C, etc. etc.

 

Sidous got Plageis drunk and murdered him, Plageis killed his master when an explosion caused a cave in and he just stabbed the guy in the back by dropping rocks on him. So we see a pretty clear pattern where the Sith Lords do not strictly become more powerful, but rather more cunning with each generation, or at least they take further steps along their plot to destroy the Jedi Order through subterfuge. NOT Force or Lightsaber prowess... so ah, the whole Banite/Jedi Golden Age argument begins to get a little fragile here.

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Glad to see someone breaking out of the paradigm that holds the PT Era Jedi up to an impossible and unfounded standard. You raise excellent points, especially about the Banite Sith.

 

In fact, Bane's vision really didn't turn out to be Sith Lord A trains Sith Lord B, who gets more "powerful" (whatever that means... pretty vague word, 'powerful') than Sith Lord A and kills him. Then trains Sith Lord C, etc. etc.

 

Sidous got Plageis drunk and murdered him, Plageis killed his master when an explosion caused a cave in and he just stabbed the guy in the back by dropping rocks on him. So we see a pretty clear pattern where the Sith Lords do not strictly become more powerful, but rather more cunning with each generation, or at least they take further steps along their plot to destroy the Jedi Order through subterfuge. NOT Force or Lightsaber prowess... so ah, the whole Banite/Jedi Golden Age argument begins to get a little fragile here.

 

Whoa, hold up a sec. It's one thing to question a specific point that has not been given a cannon answer (OR jedi do/do not have superior saber skills over PT era), it is a completely different one to question an issue that has both been suitably answered in cannon (it's G-cannon that Sidious is the strongest sith. period) and been debated to the same conclusion in this forum already ( this as well as this) Please dont go mucking around with this stuff, stick to your topic. Also, if you don't like G-cannon feel free to use your own head cannon just don't try and use it here, here we follow the EU's current standard of cannon as a basis for all arguments.

 

So far I've seen you try and work with cannon to make your point, keep on that track and don't forget one important thing, you might be wrong and it's OK (not saying you are). It's just lots of stuff happens in Star Wars that not everyone likes (Mara Jade's death) but it still happened. Just try and keep an open mind.

 

You act as though someone can not excel at something without experiencing it first. This is not always true, and this happens to be one of those cases. Jedi are weakened by war and that's how the Star Wars universe works.

 

It's proven several times. An example, Revan led his jedi in the mando wars before he was dominated by the emperor and turned. He used the jedi's exposure to the dark side during the war to corrupt them and convert them. He never had some master plan, it was the Sith Emperor's plan that Revan merely twisted later. Jedi at war weaken, and they fall. Anakin himself fell (who'd a guessed it) during a war. Luke? During a war. Revan? Directly after a war. Much of the jedi order under Revan? After a war. Kun? After a war. Ulic? War. Traya? war. Both Solo twins? War. Tahiri? War. Dooku? After the battles of Galidraan and Baltizaar. Darth Desolous? War. Krayt? War. Bastila? War ect... the list goes on. See the pattern yet? Jedi don't get stronger as jedi during the wars. It's their touches with the dark side/ violence/ malice that makes them powerful, but it corrodes them and weakens them on the inside. Eventually they either snap, or just wear out.

 

Edited in an attempt to make it sound less aggressive and more reasoned.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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