I have a fundamental "How to be a theorycrafter" question. I've been following this stuff since spring 2013, so it may be in the archive but I don't recall. Question: where do you get the formulas that translate stat budgets (not just tank mitigation stats, but things like surge/critical rating too) to percentages? I'm interested in seeing the data on "diminishing returns" that I always just trust when others make reference.

Options:

1) Datamined

2) Bioware posted them somewhere

3) Empirically determined

If I were to attempt #3, I would take my character, add a piece of gear one at a time, and plot the stat increase (e.g. defense rating) vs. the % increase. If I had done this when 2.0 dropped, and the relationship were linear, this would be fine for later tiers of gear that did not exist in the game at the time. A linear function however would not fit my definition of having diminishing returns (until you hard cap), therefore I assume the function is logarithmic (or more complicated) in which case having only a few datapoints at the low end of stat budgets may not be sufficient to accurately determine the function and return at later stat budgets.

I could be wrong on the last point, i.e. the data points when 2.0 dropped were sufficient to determine the formulas extending out, if that is the approach you took.

Also, can anyone point me to these equations or graphs showing the returns on stats, diminishing or otherwise? The critical chance vs. critical rating one posted in Dulfy's recent theorycrafting guide kinda sparked my desire for more knowledge.

I have a fundamental "How to be a theorycrafter" question. I've been following this stuff since spring 2013, so it may be in the archive but I don't recall. Question: where do you get the formulas that translate stat budgets (not just tank mitigation stats, but things like surge/critical rating too) to percentages? I'm interested in seeing the data on "diminishing returns" that I always just trust when others make reference.

 

Options:

1) Datamined

2) Bioware posted them somewhere

3) Empirically determined

 

If I were to attempt #3, I would take my character, add a piece of gear one at a time, and plot the stat increase (e.g. defense rating) vs. the % increase. If I had done this when 2.0 dropped, and the relationship were linear, this would be fine for later tiers of gear that did not exist in the game at the time. A linear function however would not fit my definition of having diminishing returns (until you hard cap), therefore I assume the function is logarithmic (or more complicated) in which case having only a few datapoints at the low end of stat budgets may not be sufficient to accurately determine the function and return at later stat budgets.

 

I could be wrong on the last point, i.e. the data points when 2.0 dropped were sufficient to determine the formulas extending out, if that is the approach you took.

 

Also, can anyone point me to these equations or graphs showing the returns on stats, diminishing or otherwise? The critical chance vs. critical rating one posted in Dulfy's recent theorycrafting guide kinda sparked my desire for more knowledge.

Hi Bdatt,

I wrote the guide on Dulfy's site, and I am just finishing my next article now. Anyway, I used to administer the forums for a site called MMO Mechanics, which is now dead. I am trying to recreate some of the great content from that site such as the articles I am writing for Dulfy.

To answer your last question, here are the current formulas since 2.0. This is a pretty crude presentation of them, and there isn't much explanation right now.

Going back to your first question regarding methods for finding out these formulas, to my knowledge BioWare has never publicly disclosed these formulas. Still, some of the things are easy enough to derive. I believe KeyboardNinja successfully derived even the more complex formulas for the most part as well. I honestly don't know where the info first published on MMO Mechanics came from. Still, it was accurate and complete information that discussed the game mechanics beyond the base formulas.

I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you may have; feel free to PM me.

Cheers,

oofalong

Going back to your first question regarding methods for finding out these formulas, to my knowledge BioWare has never publicly disclosed these formulas. Still, some of the things are easy enough to derive. I believe KeyboardNinja successfully derived even the more complex formulas for the most part as well. I honestly don't know where the info first published on MMO Mechanics came from. Still, it was accurate and complete information that discussed the game mechanics beyond the base formulas.

I derived the first set of scalars in 2.0 (the numbers for level 55). And to answer the OP, I did it essentially by trial and error (I took off all my gear and put it on piece-by-piece across several characters). However, I already had some really strong structural work to build on when I did it. LagunaD and Freehugs (both of which have left the game) did the majority of the heavy lifting back in the open beta periods when people were working excitedly to figure out how things work. Specifically, LagunaD derived the following form:

(cap * 100) * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / cap ) )^( ( rating / level ) / (k / 10) ) )

This form is the real foundation to essentially all of what we know about diminishing returns in SWTOR. In this formula, "cap" is the percentage (between 0 and 1) hard asymptote, "rating" is the amount of a particular stat which you have, "level" is your character's level, and "k" is the amount of this particular stat which is required to gain 1% starting from 0 rating at your current level.

This formula hasn't changed since the game launched, and so when bioware tweaks things (like they did with Surge early on, or the full stat overhaul in 2.0), it's generally pretty easy to just work out new values for "cap" and "k".

The 2.0 Expertise formulae (for PvP damage increase, damage reduction and healing increase) were worked out by GalenMourne and Wainamoinen based on some preliminary very rough work that I did.

To the best of my knowledge, the "standard health" and "standard healing" magic coefficients, along with all of the ability coefficients aside from certain magically bugged abilities (like Zealous Strike) were obtained by data mining.

Many, many thanks, this actually explains it pretty well. E.g. the low "k" value for surge with a 30% asymptote cap explains comments on the hard diminishing returns at higher levels of surge rating.

I'd be interested in armor rating > k/e damage reduction cap and k values too. Obviously for your guide oofalong there's no tradeoff to consider like there is with defense vs. absorb and one would never not take a higher armoring (set bonus consideration aside).

Makes me wish I had been into this sort of thing at the game's beginning. Better late than never I guess.

I'd be interested in armor rating > k/e damage reduction cap and k values too. Obviously for your guide oofalong there's no tradeoff to consider like there is with defense vs. absorb and one would never not take a higher armoring (set bonus consideration aside).

Armor is the only stat in the game which has a hard (artificially programmed) cap. Specifically, that cap is 75%. I don't actually know how that cap was determined, but it has been cited essentially since beta by some fairly reputable sources, so I'm inclined to believe it.

The cap is irrelevant anyway, since you can't get even remotely close to 75% DR solely from armor rating in the current game, nor are we likely to get there in the future.

Armor is the only stat in the game which has a hard (artificially programmed) cap. Specifically, that cap is 75%. I don't actually know how that cap was determined, but it has been cited essentially since beta by some fairly reputable sources, so I'm inclined to believe it.

 

The cap is irrelevant anyway, since you can't get even remotely close to 75% DR solely from armor rating in the current game, nor are we likely to get there in the future.

I recently joined a warzone in tank spec on a level 16 juggernaut. I opened my character sheet and was floored to find my (bolstered) damage reduction at 76.xx%. I'm sure this includes some bonuses, so is not truly breaking the 75% limit you mention here, but can you explain what was going on? Isn't this number like mid-50's at max level in full (pve) 78 gear (or so, just off the top of my head).

[sorry to be slightly off-topic.]

I recently joined a warzone in tank spec on a level 16 juggernaut. I opened my character sheet and was floored to find my (bolstered) damage reduction at 76.xx%. I'm sure this includes some bonuses, so is not truly breaking the 75% limit you mention here, but can you explain what was going on? Isn't this number like mid-50's at max level in full (pve) 78 gear (or so, just off the top of my head).

 

[sorry to be slightly off-topic.]

That…wow.

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.

That…wow.

 

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.

This was without popping anything (though all I have at that point is saber ward), just waiting for it to start. I have 6% flat DR from soresu form, and the various +armor talents (from soresu, plus the 15% more in the tree) but I have no idea why it was bolstered so high. I'll see if it's still true (the juggernaut is level 18 now I think) and try to grab numbers when I get a chance.

It's possible some healer had an armor buff on me as well just randomly, but I don't think so.

For what I was wearing: Heavy armor in each slot, with level 10 or 16 blue armorings in most (and blue boots and green bracers at some random rating I think). Two of the armor pieces had no enhancement slotted in I think, if that matters for bolster somehow.

MRW when I found out that Oofalong is trying to resurrect MMOmechanics on Dulfy.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxpfttmPEq1rn95k2o1_400.gif

MRW when I found out that Oofalong is trying to resurrect MMOmechanics on Dulfy.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxpfttmPEq1rn95k2o1_400.gif

LOL, it is slow going and I am already behind what I had hoped to do...stupid RL stuff like work...

Still, I hope to get the important stuff available soon.

LOL, it is slow going and I am already behind what I had hoped to do...stupid RL stuff like work...

 

Still, I hope to get the important stuff available soon.

I have to echo Dreselus here: I'm really glad you're preserving this information. I didn't use mmo-mechanics for very much, since almost all of the formulae are available here, but when I did pop over there it was invaluable. For example, when it recently went down, I had to frantically hunt around in old spreadsheets to find standard health values. :-)

That…wow.

 

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.

Oh, yeah, I could have confirmed that. My VG breaks 75% just from using RS, and gets even higher with sage buff, etc. I think I've seen mid-eighties on Raptus with the crystal.

That…wow.

 

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.

***** do you even exotech adrenal? *Rocks the 80% DR*

***** do you even exotech adrenal? *Rocks the 80% DR*

How often would you realistically stack adrenal with BR/Overcharge except for e-peen, though?

How often would you realistically stack adrenal with BR/Overcharge except for e-peen, though?

eryday srsbsns rund her. Gotta survive trash mobs with that 80 DR. Anyone ever figure out how to kill interrogators? They keep stunning my group and killing us with lightning storm. #*****2hard2play

How often would you realistically stack adrenal with BR/Overcharge except for e-peen, though?

When I really need the heck out of my mitigation. For example: NiM Styrak reincarnated dragon spawning immediately after cotank gets nightmared.

In general though, no I wouldn't use an adrenal together with BR except by mistake. And in answer to the earlier question, yes I do use the Exotech adrenal. Is there any informed assassin/shadow tank who doesn't use the Exotech/Rakata?!

That…wow.

 

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.

Bolster is incredibly broken in lowbie pvp. I recently made a sorc that is now level 11 and when bolstered i have 51.71% damage reduction and 3212 armour, according to the stats card.

This compared to my mostly obroan geared sage (only conqueror piece is the wrists everything else is 67 grade) that has 2815 armour rating and 16.74% damage reduction.

Both characters have no points in any damage reduction skills.

That…wow.

 

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster.

Tried it again at level 18, same result (actually, I was probably level 18 last time too, as I have one piece of gear that requires level 18). I was bolstered to the same thing: 10705 armor and 70.87% (armor) + 6.00% (soresu form flat dr) = 76.87% DR. The enhancements didn't seem to matter for the bolstered armor; I removed more and it didn't change (two pieces are missing enhancements).

This doesn't fit the formula: 10705 / ( 10705 + 240*55+800) * 100% = 43.33%, not 70.87%.

Unbolstered (i.e. not in a warzone) I have an armor rating of 2122, for a DR at level 18 of 32.53% + 6.00% = 38.53%.

I figured it out: It's using the level 18 armor DR formula, but with the bolstered armor (how broken!):

32.53 = 100* 2122 / (2122 + x) gives x = 4401.21. I guess it's really 4400, and the armor formula at level 18 is something like 100 * ArmorRating / (ArmorRating + 200*18 + 800).

[Edit: Yes, that's the correct formula for level 18.]

Then with 10705 bolstered ArmorRating, I get 100 * 10705 / (10705 + 4400) = 70.87, agreeing exactly.

When I really need the heck out of my mitigation. For example: NiM Styrak reincarnated dragon spawning immediately after cotank gets nightmared.

 

In general though, no I wouldn't use an adrenal together with BR except by mistake. And in answer to the earlier question, yes I do use the Exotech adrenal. Is there any informed assassin/shadow tank who doesn't use the Exotech/Rakata?!

Just giving you **** man. Pointing out you said we max out at just under 70% or just over with merc armor buff.

Just giving you **** man. Pointing out you said we max out at just under 70% or just over with merc armor buff.

:-) I had completely forgotten about the adrenal. Also the sage/commando buff. Also, Raptus's crystals.