Disclaimer: When I state 'we changed X', it does not preclude changes to Y and Z. I did not say 'we did not change Y and Z' but neither did I say 'we changed Y and Z'. I merely made a singular statement about X, which is not to be constructed as a statement about Y or Z. Even though I just said 'we changed X', the statistical probability for the immediate appearance of threads decrying the lack of change to Y and Z has significantly increased by this statement about X. This puzzling effect is why the first rule of partial class balance discussion is that you do not discuss partial class balance.

This effect should not puzzle you unless you can prove that X, Y, and Z are strictly orthogonal. You can't just assume they are, you really have to make sure that they are. Likely your puzzlement would vanish if you were able to perceive that the playerbase in question does not perceive X, Y, and Z to be orthogonal.

1) No CD out of combat CC on non-droids (Sleep Dart)

2) No CD in combat CC on droids (Slice Driod)

3) Short group CC / group Interrupt (Flashbang)

4) Short single target CC (Debilitate)

5) "Infinite" 50% movement slow (12 sec duration, 12 sec CD Sever Tendon)

6) Talented sprint during mitigation CD (Evasive Imperative)

7) Talented sprint after Debilitate (Slip Away)

8) 100% Threat / combat drop (Cloaking Screen)

9) Group stealth (Infiltrate)

10) Free personal damage mitigation (Shield Probe - can be boosted with +15% self heals!)

11) Free personal damage mitigation / debuff cleanser (Evasion)

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

From a mainly PvP view:

1) No CD out of combat CC on non-droids (Sleep Dart)

Yes, but this requires us AND the target being out of combat, which we rarely are in PvP situations, at least where it would be useful.

2) No CD in combat CC on droids (Slice Driod)

Yes, but this can't be used in PvP.

3) Short group CC / group Interrupt (Flashbang)

True, this one is alright, but it doesn't knock the targets back or anything, so not as useful as knockback. And people can just use their Escape / Unbreakable Will etc ability to break out.

4) Short single target CC (Debilitate)

This one is pretty much like sorcs' Electrocute, only with slightly shorter CD but also short range.

5) "Infinite" 50% movement slow (12 sec duration, 12 sec CD Sever Tendon)

Yes, this one is a bit better than sorcs' slow, but sorcs can also slow targets with Force lightning.

6) Talented sprint during mitigation CD (Evasive Imperative)

This talent doesn't seem to work, but even if it did, the CD is too long, and bonus too small compared to sorcs (who get theirs without any talent points).

7) Talented sprint after Debilitate (Slip Away)

If one is specced into full healing, one can't get this talent.

8) 100% Threat / combat drop (Cloaking Screen)

Yes, but we can't get healed at all during this time + if the enemy does any AoE dmg, we are screwed.

9) Group stealth (Infiltrate)

Yeh, this could be slightly useful when wanting to sneak a group of people onto unsuspecting enemy players, but it lasts so short, that the enemies would see us coming at some point anyway. Besides, being unseen at long distance is not.. that useful. Furthermore, it would require all the potentially cloaked party members to know what we intend to do. Most of the time people are not so coordinated, and this would also prevent those party members from using their native abilities during the stealth.

10) Free personal damage mitigation (Shield Probe - can be boosted with +15% self heals!)

Yes, this is a nice ability we have, though if we try to cast Kolto Injection during this time and get interrupted without any TA stacks, we are most likely dead in a few secs anyway. And as mentioned before, this is defence, not utility.

11) Free personal damage mitigation / debuff cleanser (Evasion)

Yes, another defence ability is nice, but the sorcs' bubble is overall better nonetheless. Also not utility.

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

Can't heal while in cover. Well, we can, but then we're not in cover anymore. This would also be defence though, not utility.

So, yeah, they are useful, but other classes (except merc/commando from what I've gathered, as they have a knockback, but no interrupt) have abilities that are more useful.

Healing + Stealth out of combat + 2 x stuns + coverscreen that prevent forceleaping...

No class should have this - simply outright lame...

Others have already explained how idiotic this list is, but hey, I'll take a turn as well in the hopes that some developer actually reads this.

1) No CD out of combat CC on non-droids (Sleep Dart)

No CD, but you can only use it on one target (if you use it twice the first one wakes up), and only before the fight has started, and only if you close to within 10' (which often requires using the Sneak cooldown), and only if you're not fighting a boss mob that sees stealth. And obviously, most endgame mobs that matter are outright immune to CC of any kind; sure, you can mez some trash mobs, but what's the point of that? They're not the ones that you have any problems killing.

2) No CD in combat CC on droids (Slice Driod)

You're really stuck on this CD thing, aren't you? Again, you can only mez one target at a time with this, so the lack of a CD is meaningless. And droids aren't exactly COMMON, even in this setting. And the really funny part? Using Slice Droid starts combat, which means you can't enter Stealth, which means you can't do your Hidden Strike, which means that DPS Operatives (especially Conceals) can't afford to use it until after the fight has started unless they're fighting foes that see through Stealth, in which case the mob is likely to be immune to CCs.

3) Short group CC / group Interrupt (Flashbang)

That requires you to be close to the target, facing him, not in stealth, and only lasts 8s or until each target is damaged. Since it's an AoE, the enemies all have to be clustered together to be affected. Decent emergency ability, but nothing you can use offensively, especially if anyone in your group uses AoEs of any kind. There are quite a few classes that love using AoEs as part of their normal damage rotation...

And here's the really funny part: the above three "sleep" CCs are all broken by damage... and we're a DoT-heavy class. Corrosive Dart, Acid Blade, Corrosive Grenade... the DPS Operative wants to keep his target DoT'd at all times, which drastically limits our ability to use these effects in tough fights.

4) Short single target CC (Debilitate)

Which requires being in melee range. It's a very handy ability against mobs that aren't immune to stuns, and forms a core part of our attack rotation, but it's far inferior to the corresponding Sorcerer stun. Remember, an Operative can only afford to drop from 100 to 60 Energy before his regen gets crippled, which means ANY energy cost on an ability can be crippling to our attack rotations.

5) "Infinite" 50% movement slow (12 sec duration, 12 sec CD Sever Tendon)

An ability with a large energy cost that does almost no damage, that's only useful for PvP and costs a GCD (meaning you're not doing damage during the cast period). Yippee. Even if there weren't a staggering number of endgame mobs immune to CC of any kind, how many foes in PvE could you say would be made easier if they were snared? Very, very few.

6) Talented sprint during mitigation CD (Evasive Imperative)

On an ability that pretty much doesn't work. (Again, Evasion doesn't affect tech or force attacks.) Yeah, THAT'd be a good investment of points.

7) Talented sprint after Debilitate (Slip Away)

Think about that one for a moment. A speed boost tied to a 4m-range ability that you use to keep your target from moving while you deal damage to him. Why, exactly, would you need that movement boost since the entire point of Debilitate is that you're going to be standing exactly where you already were while you deal damage for the next few seconds? The ONLY use is the one implied by the name, stunning the target so that you can run away. And since you'd already have used Debilitate for its offensive value, stunning your intended target, it'll be on cooldown if/when you decide to make a run for it.

Sure, Medicine folks might get more use since they'll try to get out of melee range, but it's in the Lethality tree so they won't take it until 50.

8) 100% Threat / combat drop (Cloaking Screen)

Stealth is broken by DoTs (many of which we CAN'T remove even with our DoT cleanser power), AoE attacks, environmental effects, or any number of other things. If you activate CS and any one of these factors applies to you, your stealth will break AND you'll continue to suffer from CS's healing debuff (unless you're a Conceal), which makes it counterproductive against any enemy that knows to use those sorts of effects. And if you're Medicine, you can't afford to use it much since it'd mean a long period where you can't heal anyone... which is kind of the entire point of you being there.

Conversely, if YOU placed a DoT on your target (like, Corrosive Dart, Corrosive Grenade, or Acid Blade) or used an aggroing CC like Slice Droid, the threat is NOT dropped by CS, which means they'll immediately re-aggro on you... and you won't be able to heal yourself.

In PvE it's useful outside of Operations, but since EVERY class does just fine in that sort of PvE, it's not an asset for the parts of the game where class balance actually matters (PvP or endgame PvE). In low-end PvE it's not even that strong, because your companions also use DoTs and such and you can't remove any DoTs they have on them; if your companion can't dump threat, it won't dump yours either.

9) Group stealth (Infiltrate)

Seriously? You're actually listing this one as an asset? Think about it for a moment: a group stealth that requires your team to stay right next to you (10m) for 15 seconds. If any one of them moves outside that range, or gains aggro in any way, it's over. That'd be weak enough, but here's the kicker: it conflicts with Stealth. That is, you can't activate it if you're already in stealth, and when it wears off you'll pop out of stealth, which means that your own survivability goes way down by using it. It's pretty much only useful for bypassing a few specific groups of enemies in 4-man Heroics, and even then only if your team times it right.

10) Free personal damage mitigation (Shield Probe - can be boosted with +15% self heals!)

A shield that's only 40% as effective as its Sorcerer counterpart (and that's if the Sorc doesn't spend two points adding another 20% to his effect), a counterpart that's also targetable on other players and has a much shorter cooldown. And you're really mixing trees here; the +15% self heals requires two points in the high end of the Medicine tree, meaning that it's off the table for Conceal or Lethality Ops, the specs that most need the boost that Talent provides

11) Free personal damage mitigation / debuff cleanser (Evasion)

Which is nearly useless, as noted above. It only blocks melee and ranged attacks, and since nearly every attack anyone makes is categorized Tech or Force, it doesn't really DO anything.

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

Cover breaks stealth, and you can't stab anyone from cover, so if you're a Conceal op you'll never use it once you get Laceration. Since Lethality folks need TAs, the same goes for them as well.

It really sounds like you've never played an Operative past level 20ish and are enamored of all the possibilities you see in the tree, without actually understanding why they're not nearly as good as you thought. It's remarkably similar to the devs' perspective; I'm sure they see all these tools and think "hey, these guys are just fine!" when they've clearly never played the class.

We are generally not talking about upcoming balance information, for any class, until we have finalized the changes enough to be certain, which usually means when changes are about to hit PTS. This avoids confusion and wrong expectations, but understandably causes people to be impatient.

 

I have acknowledged, when asked at the Guild Summit, that we determined healing on Operative can use some improvements and have made changes in 1.2 (along with changes to almost every other aspect of the game).

 

For details, you will have to wait until the patch hits PTS (which should be soon) for the reasons stated. Even then, I would advise you to actually test the changes on the server rather than relying on theory crafting based on patch notes, as some of the underlying rules for the game (e.g. diminishing returns for certain stats) have changed at the same time.

 

Disclaimer: When I state 'we changed X', it does not preclude changes to Y and Z. I did not say 'we did not change Y and Z' but neither did I say 'we changed Y and Z'. I merely made a singular statement about X, which is not to be constructed as a statement about Y or Z. Even though I just said 'we changed X', the statistical probability for the immediate appearance of threads decrying the lack of change to Y and Z has significantly increased by this statement about X. This puzzling effect is why the first rule of partial class balance discussion is that you do not discuss partial class balance.

I saw what you did there Georg. Nice Fight Club play. And whats the Second rule of Class Balance Discussion. You do not Discuss Partial Class Balance

I have noticed it seemed my operative was really lacking in ability to heal compared to other classes recently, before I ever checked this post. Seeing I'm not alone in this does make me feel better, but also frustrated. I'm not waiting for them to fix the class I'm really enjoying. Guess I'll try to level another healer, although not sure I'll make it through again. I'm tryin very hard to give bioware the chance to pull it together. But I lose faith everyday. Please do something about operatives/scoundrels before we all become so bored and frustrated that we quit and or reroll.

All I wanted was to say I agree with the original intent of this post and wanted to add my two cents. I could care less if I get a response from anyone, dev or otherwise as long as someone at bioware starts paying attention us.

Disclaimer: When I state 'we changed X', it does not preclude changes to Y and Z. I did not say 'we did not change Y and Z' but neither did I say 'we changed Y and Z'. I merely made a singular statement about X, which is not to be constructed as a statement about Y or Z. Even though I just said 'we changed X', the statistical probability for the immediate appearance of threads decrying the lack of change to Y and Z has significantly increased by this statement about X. This puzzling effect is why the first rule of partial class balance discussion is that you do not discuss partial class balance.

In college, I had a calculus problem that read almost exactly like this.

It gave me hives for a week, and eventually caused an emotional breakdown I never recovered from.

Just sayin....

I have noticed it seemed my operative was really lacking in ability to heal compared to other classes recently, before I ever checked this post. Seeing I'm not alone in this does make me feel better, but also frustrated. I'm not waiting for them to fix the class I'm really enjoying. Guess I'll try to level another healer, although not sure I'll make it through again. I'm tryin very hard to give bioware the chance to pull it together. But I lose faith everyday. Please do something about operatives/scoundrels before we all become so bored and frustrated that we quit and or reroll.

 

All I wanted was to say I agree with the original intent of this post and wanted to add my two cents. I could care less if I get a response from anyone, dev or otherwise as long as someone at bioware starts paying attention us.

I support you.

I stopped playing the game because I fell in love with the Operative, but don't like feeling 2nd class (I played a Druid in vanilla WoW, so I've kind of had my fill of broken MMO classes). So I'm excited about 1.2 and seeing the solutions Georg and his team have cooked up - while I doubt they'll fix everything, what changes they do implement should give us a solid idea as to whether or not they "get" the problem.

Be strong!

I think it's funny how the argument has shifted from healing ability to utility ... Particularly since I think this is 1 area where Operatives are in-fact extremely well equipped! Let's take a look:

 

1) No CD out of combat CC on non-droids (Sleep Dart)

2) No CD in combat CC on droids (Slice Driod)

3) Short group CC / group Interrupt (Flashbang)

4) Short single target CC (Debilitate)

5) "Infinite" 50% movement slow (12 sec duration, 12 sec CD Sever Tendon)

6) Talented sprint during mitigation CD (Evasive Imperative)

7) Talented sprint after Debilitate (Slip Away)

8) 100% Threat / combat drop (Cloaking Screen)

9) Group stealth (Infiltrate)

10) Free personal damage mitigation (Shield Probe - can be boosted with +15% self heals!)

11) Free personal damage mitigation / debuff cleanser (Evasion)

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

 

Are people not using these abilities? I have found each and every one useful at one point or another.

Rymhof is a pretty big troll on the operative main boards. He has a thread where he says that the four points required in diagnostic scan is totally justified because sorcs have to spend 4 points on shield to "make it useful." Pretty much take for granted anything he says is going to be silly.

From a mainly PvP view:

12) Ranged damage mitigation / avoidance (Cover)

Can't heal while in cover. Well, we can, but then we're not in cover anymore. This would also be defence though, not utility.

Also, why can't we do this, this would do a lot to make the class better in PvP (especially friggen huttball, it would be a nice perk to be the only healer able to sit on a catwalk and heal without worrying about charges/pulls).

Rymhof is a pretty big troll on the operative main boards. He has a thread where he says that the four points required in diagnostic scan is totally justified because sorcs have to spend 4 points on shield to "make it useful." Pretty much take for granted anything he says is going to be silly.

*sigh* I don't want to sully this generally good thread with spill-over from that other QQ one. I was simply listing a number of tools in our kit which I use on a regular basis to make me better at my job as an Operative.

*sigh* I don't want to sully this generally good thread with spill-over from that other QQ one. I was simply listing a number of tools in our kit which I use on a regular basis to make me better at my job as an Operative.

apart from the fact that none of them work in end game.

you have never been in an operation, how can you know what we are lacking?

apart from the fact that none of them work in end game.

Heck, not only don't a lot of them not work, our Stealth is actually a detriment, as the Stealth Breaker ability many of the Heroic / FP / OP champions and bosses possess has a larger detection radius then conventional agro.

It is a touch embarrassing to cloak (in the hope of CCing the rare non-immune trash mob) only to pull it *and* the next group over because you triggered a stealth break!

The teasing from the guild has pretty much died down by now, at least.

apart from the fact that none of them work in end game.

And also ignoring the fact that the Talents he was touting as giving us utility included high-end talents in each tree, meaning that most of the "advantages" he was talking about were mutually exclusive. So the part about them being tools he uses on a regular basis was just an outright lie, unless he respecs between each tree constantly. And like you said, most of those tools are useless in endgame play (Operations or PvP), which is the only part of the game where balance actually matters.

So yeah, he's clueless.

Also, why can't we do this, this would do a lot to make the class better in PvP (especially friggen huttball, it would be a nice perk to be the only healer able to sit on a catwalk and heal without worrying about charges/pulls).

You can heal in cover as a operative and are immune to charges or anything that doesn't work on people in cover. You just don't get the 20% range defense and immunity to interupts that snipers get that the shield skill provides.

You can heal in cover as a operative and are immune to charges or anything that doesn't work on people in cover. You just don't get the 20% range defense and immunity to interupts that snipers get that the shield skill provides.

Not true. When you cast a heal, you stand up and lose the benefits of crouching. You get it again after you crouch again, but it's gone when you stand.

Not true. When you cast a heal, you stand up and lose the benefits of crouching. You get it again after you crouch again, but it's gone when you stand.

When you are in cover (crouch) the act of casting a heal does not take you out of cover you are still in cover. It just pops you up so that you don't get the 100% cover damage immunity if you even had it in the first place but you still get the charge protection.

Post 1.2 I think that Agent/Smug healing will be better. I don't think it really matters since the problem is not failing to complete instance runs. As stated the issue is that other healers are more effective in a group. We are already starting to see the "no Ops healers" attitude in the community. Unfortunitly as the min/max crowd decide that Ops healers are a bad choice the word will spread to the larger community.

 

I don't believe that bioware understands mmo communities enough to address the problem. In their eyes Ops healers can complete the content so there isn't a problem. The player base isn't interested in if you can complete the content they want to do it as fast as possible. If the easy route is to not take an Ops healer then thats what will happen. It doesn't matter to people that they can complete a run with an Ops healer if they can do it faster/easier with someone else.

 

Until Bioware starts demonstrating that they understand the mmo market I don't expect things to change.

EXACTLY!!

Many times even though I am better geared and have done a FP more times with success they prefer the Sage healer instead for a good reason he can do it much more effectively as he has more tools to pull it off with less stress for all doing the run.

No one at Bio Ware has addressed this issue ever!

Why should it require more talent to do the same FP for a certain class only because the design requires more talent to play.

This is a DESIGN flaw in that not enough tools are there.

Patch notes are up.... interesting changes all around

Tears will flow....whether they are tears of joy or tears of disappointment good on BW's committment... what a mammoth undertaking of a patch

The Sc/Op healing notes are great. They weren't kidding about buffing Kolto Cloud.

The other healers may not find themselves as pleased with 1.2.

The Sc/Op healing notes are great. They weren't kidding about buffing Kolto Cloud.

 

The other healers may not find themselves as pleased with 1.2.

Meh.

They weren't kidding about "quality of life" improvements. That's all we got with our AoE rebalance.

That said it's hard to judge balance seeing as they made some fairly generous nerfs to the other healers... Which none of us wanted.

Meh.

They weren't kidding about "quality of life" improvements. That's all we got with our AoE rebalance.

 

That said it's hard to judge balance seeing as they made some fairly generous nerfs to the other healers... Which none of us wanted.

as a BH, i'm completely at a loss for words on why they felt they needed to nerf us. yeah, we had no heat issues if played well.. but that also depended on having a NON-BH healing partner. if i didn't have an Op to roll hots, or a SI to bubble, the BH mercs would have to chain direct heals, and DEFINITELY have heat issues.

i don't think BW understands their own game.

I think their way of improving OP is simply by killing off the other healers.

 

as a BH, i'm completely at a loss for words on why they felt they needed to nerf us. yeah, we had no heat issues if played well.. but that also depended on having a NON-BH healing partner. if i didn't have an Op to roll hots, or a SI to bubble, the BH mercs would have to chain direct heals, and DEFINITELY have heat issues.

 

i don't think BW understands their own game.

maybe BH's but certainly not Sorcs.

Sorcs really didn't get nerfed at all. Not sure why ppl in other threads are saying this.

you realise the Force bending got fixed a few weeks ago, this is simply the updated tooltip appearing in the patch notes.

Force surge / consumption change really in the grand scheme dosn't affect HPS O/P. It just requires the Sorcs to slightly modify their rotation or better still HoT themselves or stand in AoE healing....tis no biggie

Disclaimer: When I state 'we changed X', it does not preclude changes to Y and Z. I did not say 'we did not change Y and Z' but neither did I say 'we changed Y and Z'. I merely made a singular statement about X, which is not to be constructed as a statement about Y or Z. Even though I just said 'we changed X', the statistical probability for the immediate appearance of threads decrying the lack of change to Y and Z has significantly increased by this statement about X. This puzzling effect is why the first rule of partial class balance discussion is that you do not discuss partial class balance.

Especially after this stupid post ends up being vague misdirection, if not an outright lie, to appease the masses when you indeed did not change Y and Z, excepting in cases where Y and Z are other classes that made X feel like special ed.

Sorry, but I'm seriously pissed off now that I remembered this quote.

You try and tell us that just because you only mentioned our AoE heal, that doesn't mean you haven't changed anything else.

You even say that Operative and Scoundrel healing could use some improvements and we'd see them in 1.2.

So where are they?

Oh that's right, you meant these pathetic quality of life changes that just make it so Operative healing is less like passing a damn kidney stone.

No wonder you refused to give any clues as to what was coming down the pipe, because you've been talking out your *** and the only real "improvements" to the spec beyond a rebalancing of our AoE heal was nerfs to the other healers.

Time for a terribly important questions first

"Tactical Advantage no longer triggers a "grunt effect" when it occurs."

THIS BETTER NOT MEAN I DON'T LAUGH HYSTERICALLY IN COMBAT ANYMORE

Onto the meat of things.

The tactical advantage things are wonderful, 3 stacks stops our random proc being a hindrance and the duration increase should stop the rage inducing scenario of being stunned and losing ALL healing momentum in pvp.

Nothing changes the fact however that had these NOT been in then op would continue to be hilariously dodgy and not-user-friendly to play.

Recuperative nanotech thankfully now looks like something I might actually use but a 15 second cooldown for potentially a 16 man op, still looks dodgy. Definitely happy with the concept of it being changed though. No word on smart healing though. Best heal in the galaxy isn't much good if it overheals on three of it's four targets.

That said we still haven't seen anything that would address the massive gap implied by the anecdotal and napkin math contained in a large number of threads, this one included. I can only hope the combat logs allow us to show this in detail. If only from a pure throughput standpoint. Healmeters being what they are.

Not that I can properly quantify the changes to the other healers, having only played my op.