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Can we get an update on Bioware's stance?


Wraiven

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This change has seriously downgraded my game experience. Sorc's already have their hands full trying to maintain distance from Melee classes. With this change it totally gimps us in the area of defense something we're sorely lacking in the first place. It pains me that they will continue to nerf sorc's even though we're the squishiest class in the game, and we do less DPS than Imperial Agents and Bounty Hunters.
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If this was true....then this game going f2p would've never happened.

It's called lack of quality control....maybe some day .........whatever.

 

Really? All MMOs will be heading to the F2P format, it makes more economical sence. F2P is looked at as the last ditch effort of the failing. It's not. The reason why they are failing is that there are so many just like it. There are just too many games out there. The gamer population is only so big. Even if every gamer could support two games at $15 a month, that is still not enough to support all the games out there. It's wise to go to F2P. It is basically Drug Dealing: 101. Get the mark hooked on your product by giving it away for free or at low cost and then zing em with overpriced dime bags to make your real money. F2P is not a sign of weakness, it's just the future of online gaming. Eventually there will be tiered subscription plans. Plans to pay extra to keep out the "riff raff" that everyone hates so much about F2P populations. Basically setting up special instances for subscribers only or special queues that only subscribers can log onto.

 

It's time to admit that people just don't like change. It's OK to admit that people have become well trained sheep. Willing to shell out extra money to keep to an antiquated system. Companies and governments have been using this Jedi Mind Trick since the dawn of time. Like George Carlin said, "The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the [crap] out of the middle class. Keep 'em showin' up at them jobs." Same situation here. Those who can afford to pay will get the crap scared out of them by the "poor" F2P community so that they will be willing to shell out extra to keep them away. It's the same reason people shell out $250 for entrance into a club. It's not so the club makes money (sure it's a nice side effect), it's to keep out those who couldn't afford to throw away $250 to get into a club.

 

Funny how so many don't see this.

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Bottom line some players like to feel secure that their one tricky pony is ubersauce many others enjoy games that challenge them to learn their class, their abilities and limitations.. balance keeps that process from drying up imo.

Sorry but while I can't speak for the Sage/Sith as both mine are low level, the Trooper and especially the Gunnery is far from being that ubersauce you are mentioning.

 

I dare saying mostly everyone agrees on the fact it needed beef not nerfing.

Playing a Gunnery trooper was kind of masochist before now it simply sucks in PvP.

 

Before leaving, to the players complaining the 360 sage Knockback was of an issue in PvE, the issues does not lies with the skill but the player at the other end. A half decent player can position his character to push the mobs in the right direction. Thing is, with the 360 one they also had the ability to clear the area around them and especially behind, which they can't anymore.

 

Again in PvP everyone knew they had this skill, as much as everyone knew Troopers had KB. You know what: we adapted and it was part of the game. The only issue we all had is there was too much stun locks in TOR.

Point being there is even more Stuns lock in TOR since 1.4 and classes that needed a buff have been nerfed.

If at least they would have handed us a free AC to AC respec.

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I think this points to one of their specific problems: they don't get feedback until way too late in the process to do anything about it.

 

Yeah, that seems to be a problem with the test server in this game. I know of very, very little changes that were made after the people's reaction in the tests.

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I know full well that there are people that will complain about anything especially on Msg boards. Heck I dare anyone to name a single significant thing that BW has changed in SWTOR that hasn't received at least two complaint threads. But anyone whining about this saying they can't pve effectively anymore is lying, trolling or very, very bad. Good riddance to all of you.
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Really? All MMOs will be heading to the F2P format, it makes more economical sence. F2P is looked at as the last ditch effort of the failing. It's not. The reason why they are failing is that there are so many just like it. There are just too many games out there. The gamer population is only so big. Even if every gamer could support two games at $15 a month, that is still not enough to support all the games out there. It's wise to go to F2P. It is basically Drug Dealing: 101. Get the mark hooked on your product by giving it away for free or at low cost and then zing em with overpriced dime bags to make your real money. F2P is not a sign of weakness, it's just the future of online gaming. Eventually there will be tiered subscription plans. Plans to pay extra to keep out the "riff raff" that everyone hates so much about F2P populations. Basically setting up special instances for subscribers only or special queues that only subscribers can log onto.

 

It's time to admit that people just don't like change. It's OK to admit that people have become well trained sheep. Willing to shell out extra money to keep to an antiquated system. Companies and governments have been using this Jedi Mind Trick since the dawn of time. Like George Carlin said, "The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the [crap] out of the middle class. Keep 'em showin' up at them jobs." Same situation here. Those who can afford to pay will get the crap scared out of them by the "poor" F2P community so that they will be willing to shell out extra to keep them away. It's the same reason people shell out $250 for entrance into a club. It's not so the club makes money (sure it's a nice side effect), it's to keep out those who couldn't afford to throw away $250 to get into a club.

 

Funny how so many don't see this.

 

It'll be a sad day when the last MMO finally goes F2P. That will be the day the genre completely abandons it's core customers, the players who have been around for over a decade playing MMOGs. I don't play Rift anymore, but I have an ever growing respect for that game's development team, and their ongoing commitment to providing their players with tons of extra content in the form of planned world events, free of additional charge.

 

-Macheath.

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It'll be a sad day when the last MMO finally goes F2P. That will be the day the genre completely abandons it's core customers, the players who have been around for over a decade playing MMOGs. I don't play Rift anymore, but I have an ever growing respect for that game's development team, and their ongoing commitment to providing their players with tons of extra content in the form of planned world events, free of additional charge.

 

-Macheath.

 

Thank you for illustrating my point. The "core gamers" are a dying breed. Like any declining population, you look to the "glory days" not realizing that they weren't that glorious. We got suckered into a pay-to-play format and then when obsolete, refused to let it go.

 

Let it go gracefully.

 

Don't hold on to something for fear of change. Sure we collect antiques for the memories, but who wants to go back and use a washing machine from 1862? Who doesn't have a family member that just refuses to give up some anachronistic piece of equipment because they are just so damned comfortable with it? I guarantee there is someone who still uses their old TRS-80. Every aging, declining population sees what they did as greater than the subsequent generation. We have writings from Ancient Greece that complain about how the younger generation doesn't respect their elders or have the commitment or work ethic they did. Sorry, but this hasn't changed in a millenia.

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Ok.. back to the original post. First and foremost, nothing was taken away from Inqs. AOE has actually been improved for PVE. That's right improved. I ran into this today.

 

Blow back is now directional (not removed). This is a bonus because it allows for the use of AOE with out breaking CC. Ran a few HMs and had great runs because of it: CC elites, blew mobs off ledges and finished the elites. Easy peasy.

 

So... before you start talking about what they took away, maybe you should look at what was left behind. Change is not always a bad thing.

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Ok.. back to the original post. First and foremost, nothing was taken away from Inqs. AOE has actually been improved for PVE. That's right improved. I ran into this today.

 

Blow back is now directional (not removed). This is a bonus because it allows for the use of AOE with out breaking CC. Ran a few HMs and had great runs because of it: CC elites, blew mobs off ledges and finished the elites. Easy peasy.

 

So... before you start talking about what they took away, maybe you should look at what was left behind. Change is not always a bad thing.

 

For every use you can find for it, I can counter with a better use I had before the change. What you feel and what I feel are only a minor relevance in the whole scheme of things. It was a bad decision for Bioware to make...period. Most people were fine with how it was...I can not recall anyone ever complaining about it the way it was previously, and to be quite honest, I refuse to play an Inquisitor class now because of it. I am almost half temped to refuse to play the Merc now because of their change as well. Let them nerf to the remaining classes and guess what...see ya, taking my 15 bucks a month and going elsewhere. Let you guys have fun with the Free to Play kids. Oh, and you will enjoy the mass amount of kids coming to play.

 

Think trolling is bad now? Hahaha, wait till the Free to Play kids get here. Been there, done that, seen it all. If I am to tolerate the Free to Play kids, this game had better stop with the silly changes and get back on track. I love this game, but they continue to make goofy changes, it won't be the same game anymore...and I will not stand around and let somebody paint my cherry red 1976 Trans-Am puke green, and tell me that it's actually better just because a few of you like puke green as opposed to my cherry red.

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...and I will not stand around and let somebody paint my cherry red 1976 Trans-Am puke green, and tell me that it's actually better just because a few of you like puke green as opposed to my cherry red.

 

How is that even a comparative analogy? For one, this is not YOUR game. This is OUR game. So it's not your cherry red Trans-Am (and a '76 Trans-Am? It's no wonder they would have to go F2P).

 

If you want to compare it to a vehicle, this would be a cruise ship. The Captain (EA) decides the the course and speed. We are all just passengers. It's not the color of the ship, that would be cosmetic, this is functionality. More and more people are jumping ship because they don't like the course the ship has set, but the Capt. still needs money to keep her running. Can't charge people who aren't there. So at the next stop he will let everyone on for free and start charging for rooms, amenities, drinks, dinner, and entertainment. (microtransactions). Some will not like the change and they will jump ship, too. That's ok, as long as they can take in enough money to keep her running. The S.S. SWTOR (Some might say TORtanic) will make new ports and see new sights, and some of us are willing to put up with the kids since they gave us an IPod that will tune out the noise (ignore). Basically it's like Cartman said about Chat Roulette, "If you want to find some quality friends, you have to wade through all the [bleep]s first" A larger base of players means faster queue times, less waiting for WZ to populate, and new people who are not ALL jerks experiencing a new game that they may not have tried if it weren't free. Numbers bear this uncomfortable fact out. DDO, LotRO, DCUO, STO, and AoC would have shut down if it weren't for F2P. Some are slowly dying, but some have even posted record profits. It all depends on how it's done.

 

I'll wait.

 

Unless they keep puting out garbage like the 1.4 update. Then I'll just drop my sub and pop in from time to time to see if they made enough positive change to warrant a re-sub.

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How is that even a comparative analogy? For one, this is not YOUR game. This is OUR game. So it's not your cherry red Trans-Am (and a '76 Trans-Am? It's no wonder they would have to go F2P).

 

If you want to compare it to a vehicle, this would be a cruise ship. The Captain (EA) decides the the course and speed. We are all just passengers. It's not the color of the ship, that would be cosmetic, this is functionality. More and more people are jumping ship because they don't like the course the ship has set, but the Capt. still needs money to keep her running. Can't charge people who aren't there. So at the next stop he will let everyone on for free and start charging for rooms, amenities, drinks, dinner, and entertainment. (microtransactions). Some will not like the change and they will jump ship, too. That's ok, as long as they can take in enough money to keep her running. The S.S. SWTOR (Some might say TORtanic) will make new ports and see new sights, and some of us are willing to put up with the kids since they gave us an IPod that will tune out the noise (ignore). Basically it's like Cartman said about Chat Roulette, "If you want to find some quality friends, you have to wade through all the [bleep]s first" A larger base of players means faster queue times, less waiting for WZ to populate, and new people who are not ALL jerks experiencing a new game that they may not have tried if it weren't free. Numbers bear this uncomfortable fact out. DDO, LotRO, DCUO, STO, and AoC would have shut down if it weren't for F2P. Some are slowly dying, but some have even posted record profits. It all depends on how it's done.

 

I'll wait.

 

Unless they keep puting out garbage like the 1.4 update. Then I'll just drop my sub and pop in from time to time to see if they made enough positive change to warrant a re-sub.

 

How can you not like a Cherry Red 1976 Trans-am?!?!?

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For every use you can find for it, I can counter with a better use I had before the change. What you feel and what I feel are only a minor relevance in the whole scheme of things. It was a bad decision for Bioware to make...period. Most people were fine with how it was...I can not recall anyone ever complaining about it the way it was previously, and to be quite honest, I refuse to play an Inquisitor class now because of it. I am almost half temped to refuse to play the Merc now because of their change as well. Let them nerf to the remaining classes and guess what...see ya, taking my 15 bucks a month and going elsewhere. Let you guys have fun with the Free to Play kids. Oh, and you will enjoy the mass amount of kids coming to play.

 

Think trolling is bad now? Hahaha, wait till the Free to Play kids get here. Been there, done that, seen it all. If I am to tolerate the Free to Play kids, this game had better stop with the silly changes and get back on track. I love this game, but they continue to make goofy changes, it won't be the same game anymore...and I will not stand around and let somebody paint my cherry red 1976 Trans-Am puke green, and tell me that it's actually better just because a few of you like puke green as opposed to my cherry red.

 

Lol. Liked how you worked your feelings about F2P in there. But it is totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.

 

Look, you have your opinion which is fine. But you seem to be thinking you speak for a multitude and you are not. Now that the AOE change has been implemented, for many that continue to play, it is not a problem. If you refuse to play because of the change it is your loss. I have an Assassin dps and a Shadow tank both at 50 and play has never been better IMO. Instead of waiting for a response that may or may not come, take the blinders off and play. You may find it is not ruined. However, if it is that black and white for you, c'est la vie. But don't presume you know what others think or find appealing about classes, nerfs, and or tuning. You don't.

Edited by Qarran
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Lol. Liked how you worked your feelings about F2P in there. But it is totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.

 

Look, you have your opinion which is fine. But you seem to be thinking you speak for a multitude and you are not. Now that the AOE change has been implemented, for many that continue to play, it is not a problem. If you refuse to play because of the change it is your loss. I have an Assassin dps and a Shadow tank both at 50 and play has never been better IMO. Instead of waiting for a response that may or may not come, take the blinders off and play. You may find it is not ruined. However, if it is that black and white for you, c'est la vie. But don't presume you know what others think or find appealing about classes, nerfs, and or tuning. You don't.

 

You don't need statistics to know what the majority of the players want here. It pretty much is black and white. Sometimes it's simply painfully obvious. You can hide behind statistics if you like. I don't don't need them in this case. It is a majority of the players who hate these changes. That is a fact that needs no statistic.

 

Not trying to be a jerk here, just calling it like I see it. Usually I am a facts man myself, but only a facts driven blind folded individual would require "facts" on this one.

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We are now in the zone for a mea culpa from someone in the company and I can see it going one of three ways:

 

1) Say nothing-not a good choice.

 

2) Blame the metrics-try to justify the decision based on what they measured. To me it suggests maybe they need to measure some other things e.g. playability, feel, consistency, stability. It also suggests the metrics may be the problem. Maybe they are measuring the wrong thing.

 

3) Take responsiblity for the problems in 1.4, outline what's in place to fix it, and put out what they intend to do to prevent these things from happening in the future.

 

It will be #1, and then IF they ever do say anything, it will be #2. At least that is the pattern established when the 1.2 healer nerfs went live. Even if healers (like me) could accept nerfs to healing output, pretty much no healers were pleased with the changes to their rotations and feel of the classes. Well, except scoundrels/operatives. ;)

 

I don't intend to resurrect that debate here, just point out that player complaints about how their class plays as a result of changes have been generally ignored. That is too bad, because it is probably more than a coincidence that the population started to drop dramatically soon after 1.2 went live.

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Look, you have your opinion which is fine. But you seem to be thinking you speak for a multitude and you are not. Now that the AOE change has been implemented, for many that continue to play, it is not a problem. If you refuse to play because of the change it is your loss.

 

I agree.

 

Wraiven, just because you don't like the changes and for whatever reason cannot adapt, does not make them bad changes. As changes go in MMOs, this set was pretty reasonable and only required minor adjustments to PvE playstyle to get past it and move on. The fact that Bioware did not revert them based on feedback from some players during PTS is irrelevant.... being as it was mostly complaining and demanding they revert it (which it was clear they were not going to do). PTS on the changes was to see the changes in action and make sure it was giving the intended results in changes to game play.

 

Adapt, move forward. It did not break PvE, it just required some adjustments to play, which is pretty much happens in all MMOs over time.

Edited by Andryah
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OK, getting back to the subject at hand, when RWZ have groups of just one class there is a problem. That means that there is not balance. The ideal team would be one of each: Vanguard, Commando, Scoundrel, Gunslinger, Shadow, Sage, Guardian, and Sentinel or their Imperial counterparts. Should groups spec only in one class, that means that it is OPed. Watching a group of just one class type, skyrocket up the ranked charts is a clue. Perhaps a solution would be to have range/cooldown differences in PvP. I don't know, but if it works in a WZ, it should work in PvE.
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OK, getting back to the subject at hand, when RWZ have groups of just one class there is a problem. That means that there is not balance. The ideal team would be one of each: Vanguard, Commando, Scoundrel, Gunslinger, Shadow, Sage, Guardian, and Sentinel or their Imperial counterparts. Should groups spec only in one class, that means that it is OPed. Watching a group of just one class type, skyrocket up the ranked charts is a clue. Perhaps a solution would be to have range/cooldown differences in PvP. I don't know, but if it works in a WZ, it should work in PvE.

 

People are clever. They will always find a way to exploit and aggravate intended playstyle.

 

On the other hand, a premade group should always skyrocket up the ranks, so maybe it's not that they are playing the same class as much as they are playing it really well as a coordinated group. You may be jumping to conclusions that are not supported by the facts. Personally, I don't know.... but I do feel you need to look at everything in context, and in RWZ.... team play skillz are an important context.

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I agree.

 

Wraiven, just because you don't like the changes and for whatever reason cannot adapt, does not make them bad changes. As changes go in MMOs, this set was pretty reasonable and only required minor adjustments to PvE playstyle to get past it and move on. The fact that Bioware did not revert them based on feedback from some players during PTS is irrelevant.... being as it was mostly complaining and demanding they revert it (which it was clear they were not going to do). PTS on the changes was to see the changes in action and make sure it was giving the intended results in changes to game play.

 

Adapt, move forward. It did not break PvE, it just required some adjustments to play, which is pretty much happens in all MMOs over time.

 

 

Look, I know I'm being a bit unreasonable with this. But you know what, if there is a snowball's chance in hell to get this change put back, then I feel it's a necessary evil. I don't want to quit this game...but there is no way I will continue to play a game when they change an ability like this. Nerfs are undesirable, but tolerated but in this case they have completely changed the mechanic of the abilities. This is far beyond a nerf, this is a complete change that not everyone can sit and tolerate.

 

I will not be quiet about this, I will not roll over and just let this game go to crap. I will fight it, I will be stubborn, I will voice my opinion, and I will not let this go. This is how society is taken advantage of every single day. You do something that society does not like, want them to stay quiet? Call them QQers if they complain, and completely avoid their questions. Sheeple are good at staying quiet. I'm no sheep. I'm a human being.

Edited by Wraiven
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People are clever. They will always find a way to exploit and aggravate intended playstyle.

 

On the other hand, a premade group should always skyrocket up the ranks, so maybe it's not that they are playing the same class as much as they are playing it really well as a coordinated group. You may be jumping to conclusions that are not supported by the facts. Personally, I don't know.... but I do feel you need to look at everything in context, and in RWZ.... team play skillz are an important context.

 

A well played team in RWZ can skyrocket without having to be all the same class. If a well organized team are all playing the same class, that tells you even more so that something is wrong. It further proves his point, not diminishes it, IMO.

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OK said it before but here it is again.

 

The only people that complain about this are the ones that can not play. Cone knock back > 360 since you do not break Stuns and other CC and can control the placement of the mobs for AOE Damage following

 

So it allows you to use have hitting AOE skills and organize the mobs IF Played correctly.

 

If you just mash buttons of course you think it is a nerf :rolleyes:

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OK said it before but here it is again.

 

The only people that complain about this are the ones that can not play. Cone knock back > 360 since you do not break Stuns and other CC and can control the placement of the mobs for AOE Damage following

 

So it allows you to use have hitting AOE skills and organize the mobs IF Played correctly.

 

If you just mash buttons of course you think it is a nerf :rolleyes:

 

 

I know how to play just fine, thank you. Has nothing to do with knowing how to play, it has to do with preference. I had no issues breaking stuns with it the way it was previously. If you did break stuns with it previously, then that tells me that it is *you* who does not know how to play, and making this a cone instead of an AoE knock back simply caters to your lack of knowledge on how to use an AoE correctly.

 

Nice try, but you only proved to me who it is here that *really* has no clue how to play. Since you wanted to take it that rout. :rolleyes:

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