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Dread Guard nerf - Catering to the Casual


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Carl I would like to point out that the first couple of guilds that did kill nightmare DG were not optimized. They had chars that were not BiS either. Its the same fight. You stick to the mechanics and you win. That's why you havent been seeing a ton of guilds posting progression on the fight. I know on my server there are still only a handful of guilds that have cleared it and most of those are in 16m since we have both Severity Gaming and Chosen on our server.

I would never presume to call this fight super easy even in its current form compared to the original. I would call the current form balanced and the original state of the fight overtuned. It is definitely a nightmare worthy encounter.

 

of course i didnt mean it wasnt nightmare worthy, just said, the 30 sec enrage wasnt what the fight needed... neither i believe the Dg fight should be the hardest, it should be kephess or TFB... but besides that, theres a difference between: using different "class" not "fully optimized" lets say my sniper in our kills instead of my op, was missing reli, implant, ear, wasnt fully optimized, but it was a "better" class for the fight.... thats different than using a random alt you dont focus on gearing, not even augmented, with stuff Pug runs sometimes even reject in a hm sav lol.... 1 is necessity other is just, alt run... now ill point out that we wouldnt be able to kill them pre nerf with second group undergear lol, but after nerf, yes we could.

 

so ill believe the "not optimized" if its true, dont know, none of them plays in my server, is more a "i preffer this class that does better even with less gear", more than using an under geared ssin tank like i used lol... now i agree with you mechanics is 60% and skills 40% of the fight... once again the post is just to shot everyone that there is not that "myth" perfectly BiS gear requirement everyone says, like omg we cant kill this, first answer is " its gear, this just needs more gear" false... just that. :)

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Sins/Shadows do surprisingly well in this fight when optimized in pure mitigation builds. It's not super bursty, but still hurts insanely bad just like any other tank class. *says mitigation optimized 72 sin tank* after you understand mechanics and there is no issue healing, the burning of the boss for dps is the single greatest hurdle I've seen.
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well carl if you go through the threads you will notice that the DiliH crew that got the first kill not only used classes that arent typically the best for the clear but they were also undergeared. They didnt even have a bloodthirst and had guys missing the good relics/implants/ears and were using a lot of 69 rank pieces. There was also a guild that used a shadow dpser in 69s that got it down. That demonstrates to me that there were some truly talented players involved that were able to optimize their dps uptime/output while at a gear/class disadvantage. It also shows that the fight is all about the mechanics and RNG before and after the fix. Sure people can now kill the boss before enrage hits and they have that little extra time, but the fight is the same. Only skilled players are going to down it certainly a casual will still be stuck on the fight.
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  • 3 weeks later...
This thread makes me lol

 

umm, to the op. The current fight is more like what we wanted, the pre-nerf version was a pure guild destroyer.

 

The fight, as its currently tuned, is still miles past what the "casual" guild may expect to clear. Yes it no longer requires your dps to all be putting up some of the best numbers in the world, but it still requires amazing dps from all 4 dps.

 

Not sure who you're referring to when you say 'what we wanted' but from all the feedback from all 16 man guilds who participate in progression (and most 8 man, from what I saw on the original 'plz nerf' thread ) - almost every guild said "No Bioware, this does not need nerfs, it's already as hard as it needs to be".

 

Today, the fight saw a second nerf..many mistakes can be made and the fight will still be beaten.

The fact that the 10 or so guilds (8 and 16 combined) who killed this fight before ANY nerfs STILL made mistakes (I counted 10-20 in the videos I watched), is indication that this fight is clearly being made far too easy.

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As of today's nerf, this fight can be done with multiple deaths, sub-optimal composition and our healers actually said 'I had nothing to do so I threw dots'..because everyone was full health (this may have been during Ciphas which I'm pretty sure was always the least healing intensive).

 

It's now at the point that I think Hard Mode 'should' be.

Edited by Airwolfe
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please stop misusing the word casual. the amount of time one plays has no correlation to how skilled one is. the more proper word would be unskilled. besides all content that the average ex wow player can't complete in a few tries gets nerfed now.

 

I don't think I ever defined, or would define the word "casual" based on how much time one plays.

To me it means "Desirous of nerfs on content which can/has been beaten by others", or "wants loot handed to them without any real effort put forth". Or perhaps "one who plays games not for the sake of a challenge/mental stimulation, but moreso for social purposes".

Edited by Airwolfe
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Airwolfe I think you are still missing the point and trying to beat a dead horse back to life.

 

It's a BUSINESS. If NiM was built to only be done by lets say 1,000 of 1,000,000 people for grins then it's a bad business decision to spend large amounts of coding time (Money) to make a NiM instance in the first place. The metrics (Math) behind the scenes most likely showed a very LARGE majority of the population was not completing DG, but seemed to be clearing other bosses in a much higher percentage. Heck you can see that from Torparse a little, but not a perfect picture.

 

Granted many folks agree some HARD Stuff should be in NiM, but also reasonable. I totally agree with Carl that last 2 bosses should be the nasty butt kicking type just like the DG Pre-Nerf. THAT makes NiM worthy of guild challenges and titles. Not slapping the nasty content on boss #2 and calling it a day. Especially after PTS was a completely different animal.

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considering the fact that a vast majority of the programming has gone into catering to the wider population, I don't think it's too much to ask of any business to make a boss fight that people who breeze through hard mode can chew on awhile and find compelling. Additionally, a game which offers one difficulty that is well and truly difficult will attract the kind of people who want that, and keeps players who are only interested in raiding on the hook for longer.

 

Honestly they should have kept the fight something truly hard for those who wanted it. They'd already programmed it. What point was there to making it so much easier? This was a fight where, no matter when you beat it, you could take pride in having beat it, even after the first nerf. Now, those of us who were progressing at a slower rate will never get that, and that really is too bad.

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Granted many folks agree some HARD Stuff should be in NiM, but also reasonable. I totally agree with Carl that last 2 bosses should be the nasty butt kicking type just like the DG Pre-Nerf. THAT makes NiM worthy of guild challenges and titles. Not slapping the nasty content on boss #2 and calling it a day. Especially after PTS was a completely different animal.

 

I agree with this. I don't mind there being fights that only the top 1% (or 0.1%) can complate, but they should be the final bosses. Take Nightmare Kephess from EC, he was leaps and bounds harder than anything else in there. Even the tanks, who were very difficult, were dwarfed by Kephess in difficulty.

 

Having the 2nd boss in the raid be dissproportionatly tuned is not the correct model. Styrak and The Terror should be as tough as pre-nerf DG were. The DG should NOT be the most difficult enounter in the raid.

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Personally I think the DG boss is now more on par with the other NiM bosses. Yesterday we did our first real tries on the DG boss ever since the week it was released and we downed it. As a healer I completely agree with the fact that the fight has lost much of it's healing intensity. One time the only reason we died was because 5 people in a row (yes 5!!!! first 2, then 3 more) got a red circle which we as healers could no longer keep up with. Keeping both tanks alive and 2 people with red circles, of which one had wither too, at the same time was NO problem at all. NONE.

 

To be fair it is still harder to us than the 3rd and 4th boss but I guess that's because we had a lot more practice on those than we had on the DG's.

Edited by DrunkWithAGun
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As of today's nerf, this fight can be done with multiple deaths, sub-optimal composition and our healers actually said 'I had nothing to do so I threw dots'..because everyone was full health (this may have been during Ciphas which I'm pretty sure was always the least healing intensive).

 

It's now at the point that I think Hard Mode 'should' be.

The issue was always dps imbalance, instead they took the easy way out and nerfed the fight, but the same issue can come back next tier, which i expect to be.

Edited by ElitehunterDS
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I usually dont complain about boss 'nerfs', but this was a completely idiotic nerf on the Dread Guards. We killed it weeks ago, but seeing this stat eof the boss and compare to the other version, its like not even the same fight anymore.. I can agree with the health pool nerf, only because the current unbalance of the dps classes (shadows/vanguards vs gunslingers/sentinels), but nerfing the damage output of the bosses just ridiculous. Why? I cant think a reason why they had to do this, the tank classes and heal classes are fine (maybe a shadow tanks are a bit weaker these days), you could kill the boss even with the most idiotic heal/tank compostitions.

 

I know that Bioware wont buff back the boss, at least there isnt a precedent for that in MMO history, but please next time dont swing the nerf bat this wide and without reason on Nightmare bosses. its supposed to be harder than the joke state of the HM bosses.

 

Cheers, T.

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I tell my healers nightly how appericative I am for their ability and willingness to play as a healer class in this game. Its either super duper pain in the *** to heal crap (i.e. pre-nerf-nerf orginal dreadguards) or its a snooze fest boring as can be (current dreadguards).

 

I played EQ2 as a healer for 8+ years....I enjoyed it 100x better than healing in this game, so I always make sure to thank my healers here.

 

Perhaps EQ2 had too much capabilities for healing classes, but I always feel like I don't have enough tools at my disposal to do the healing job (maybe thats why I don't heal in this game)....EQ2, as an Inquisitor we'd have:

 

single small heal

single big heal

single class specific heal

group ae direct heal

group ae class specific heal

alternative achievement group class specific heal on longer reuse

single target cure

group cure

2nd group cure from advanced class capabilities as an Inquisitor (from our mythical class weapon)

death prevent Oh s*** ability

Oh s*** single target class specific heal ability

Oh s*** group class specific heal ability

 

Not to mention tons of other stuff I'm forgetting perhaps...

 

seems SWTOR kinda dipped their toes into the class specific healing trinity like EQ2 had (Reactive healing, HoT Healing, and Shield/Protective/Ward healing)

 

 

Dunno really how I got off on this tangent about my gripes with healing in this game in relation to ops....something to do with the pain and annoyance our healers had when we killed dreadguards before they ever got nerfed versus how they felt about the fight after this latest nerf... I guess.

Edited by Felkroth
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Airwolfe I think you are still missing the point and trying to beat a dead horse back to life.

 

This is definitely not a dead horse - has a very real purpose. To preserve maximal challenges for those of us who play the game to the fullest potential and want to be pushed to the limits of performance. That's absolutely a fun draw to any MMO, thus is a very large draw to raiders' subscriptions.

Bioware is driving away subscriptions by nerfing..and people are going back to WoW or will be going to Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 over this.

I personally will lose complete interest in the game if Nightmare fights all become carebear mode, thus I am unhappy with any nerf to a fight which has been killed ever by anyone within the first month or so.

Edited by Airwolfe
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Having the 2nd boss in the raid be dissproportionatly tuned is not the correct model. Styrak and The Terror should be as tough as pre-nerf DG were. The DG should NOT be the most difficult enounter in the raid.

 

I get that, and actually agree. But the fact is, DG was where it needed to be in the original version.

The other fights (most of them - Writhing Horror, Operator, Dash'roode, Titan 6 maybe) were disproportionately too low of difficulty.

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My guild, which borders on casual/hardcore, is still in the top 20 on the official progression thread despite being 1 and 2/3 of 5 in NiM TFB. While the Dreadguards are admittedly easier now, i don't think there's gonna be a rash of guilds downing it now. In all 3 configurations the fight was and remains to be very difficult. IMO going from 10 to 20 guilds able to down a fight is not exactly "catering to the casual." That being said, mad props to all the guilds who were able to complete this encounter in its original release.
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yes, because 20 guilds(20x16= 320 or 20x8=160), from 160 to 320 players that can clear the new NiM in a universe of +1Milion player base is Catering to the Casual

 

Edit: numbers are not 100% accurate, i am sure that the guilds that can clear it are less and the numbers os SWTOR player base is higher, but you get me idea, if not, not my problem

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This is definitely not a dead horse - has a very real purpose. To preserve maximal challenges for those of us who play the game to the fullest potential and want to be pushed to the limits of performance. That's absolutely a fun draw to any MMO, thus is a very large draw to raiders' subscriptions.

Bioware is driving away subscriptions by nerfing..and people are going back to WoW or will be going to Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 over this.

I personally will lose complete interest in the game if Nightmare fights all become carebear mode, thus I am unhappy with any nerf to a fight which has been killed ever by anyone within the first month or so.

You don't appear to realise how few people are like you. There are 12 confirmed kills of DG. That's it. That's not even 100 players. No company that wants to stay in business is going to create content that only 100 people ever see (ie everything past DG).

 

The fight is still far beyond the capabilities of at least 95% of the playerbase. It is hard by any reasonable definition of the word. If you don't find it hard, then you're just very unusual.

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You don't appear to realise how few people are like you. There are 12 confirmed kills of DG. That's it. That's not even 100 players. No company that wants to stay in business is going to create content that only 100 people ever see (ie everything past DG).

 

The fight is still far beyond the capabilities of at least 95% of the playerbase. It is hard by any reasonable definition of the word. If you don't find it hard, then you're just very unusual.

 

Really??? How many cleared Sunwell and Naxx 40 in comparison to the population? Last I check those were the 2 largest period of growth for Blizzard. And now that everyone can see the content, their population is steadily declining. History proves your theory wrong

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Really??? How many cleared Sunwell and Naxx 40 in comparison to the population? Last I check those were the 2 largest period of growth for Blizzard. And now that everyone can see the content, their population is steadily declining. History proves your theory wrong

 

You do realize that the gaming culture was decidedly different nearly a decade ago. These comparisons of SWTOR to WoW are ridiculous. Extended periods of playing (8-10 hour marathon sessions) and raiding was a job (40+ hours a week) not a game.

 

Frankly at that time period of the growth of the MMO, there was a much larger portion of gamers who yearned for that type of content. The majority of said players are for all intensive purposes extinct.

 

  • WoW: 1% of 10,000,000: 100,000 players.
  • SWTOR: 1% of 700,000: 7,000 players.

 

So for Blizzard that is 100,000 players paying a subscription to pay developers for the hardest content, compared to 7,000 players for Bioware. And frankly, saying 1% of SWTOR players are completing the content is generous. In it's original form, it is actual fractions of a percent. In addition, WoW was not F2P, which means, they were being paid by EVERYONE playing which means even if only 1% of players saw the content, it was enough to keep them developing it.

 

You also have to add in to the fact, that none of this "content" is new. It is the same raids tuned for higher levels of gear and coordination.

 

So your comparisons are apples to oranges, and do nothing to add to the actual debate that nerfing the encounter good or bad for SWTOR. Subscriptions are dwindling, content is released at a snails pace.

 

So history has proven nothing, other than allowing you to make idiotic comparisons.

 

Regards,

KK

Edited by Krazy_Karl
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Really??? How many cleared Sunwell and Naxx 40 in comparison to the population? Last I check those were the 2 largest period of growth for Blizzard. And now that everyone can see the content, their population is steadily declining. History proves your theory wrong

Correlation is not causation.

 

Strange argument to bring up though, given that the most popular games on the market are generally considered dumbed down for casuals. It's clearly a rather successful strategy. (and no, I don't like it - I'm not a casual player at all).

 

If this were a solo game, I would love content as hard as pre-nerf DG. As it is, though, you need at least 7 other people to do ops, and most people have jobs and whatnot and simply don't have the time required to complete that level of difficulty. So for the sake of me ever doing such content, I'm happy it's easier. It's still bloody hard though. Anyone who says it isn't has a *very* unusual conception of difficulty.

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