This post is written from the perspective of a hardcore guild raid leader. I fully understand that everyone plays this game for different reasons and my aim in posting this is simply to try and make Bioware aware of how their operations content is being received by people who have a serious interest in SW:TOR raiding. It is very much a critique of what I and many others regard as serious flaws within the SW:TOR operations system and due to its length I have tried to break it down into sections.

 

Lack of variety between difficulty modes

 

One of the core weaknesses of SW:TOR raiding is that there is an alarming lack of variety in boss mechanics. The vast majority of raid encounters play out identically in terms of boss mechanics no matter what difficulty the raid is attempted on. The difficulty is only increased through increased damage and increased boss health pools.

 

The net result is that progression through the higher difficulties feels like little more than a gear check. The lack of new mechanics to adapt to makes the encounters feel very stale and unimaginative. The sense of having genuinely accomplished something by completing nightmare mode content is severely diminished because you simply do not feel as though you have overcome some new obstacle that has been placed in your path.

 

Narrow Range of Raid Difficulty

 

When it was revealed before the release of SW:TOR that it would have three different difficulty modes for raiding I do not believe I was alone in thinking such a system would have huge potential. There has been concerted push among MMO developers to make raid content available to the more casual player in recent years and understandably so - hardcore raiders do not make up a large percentage of the overall market. A three tiered system seemed to be the best possible way to satisfy people at both ends of the MMO spectrum, the casual player and the hardcore raider.

 

Such a system allowed Bioware to implement a raiding system where the normal mode represented an opportunity for just about every player to experience raid content and, to be totally fair to them, this is exactly what they accomplished with normal mode raiding. I have absolutely no problem with the tuning of normal mode raiding. It is very well tuned to offer the vast majority of players to experience raid content and to engage with the storylines surrounding this content.

 

The tuning of hard and nightmare mode content however is especially poor. There should be a significant jump in difficulty going from normal mode to hard mode. As a middle ground hard mode should be tuned to the level that casual or semi-hardcore guilds need a great deal of preparation in terms of gear and consumables to complete them. It is more or less a given that some more hardcore guilds will be able to compensate for a lack of gear with better execution, strategy and by taking more of a min/max approach to their individual roles. This is where the nightmare mode becomes key. Nightmare mode should be tuned such that it absolutely requires every raider to put in the maximum possible effort in terms of pre-raid preparation. It should also require an exceptionally high level of execution and strategy to complete encounters at this level. There is absolutely no reason why nightmare mode content should not be tuned to this level given that normal mode gives the more casual player an entry point to raiding and hard mode gives them something to aspire to.

 

Tuning nightmare mode raid content such that it is able to be completed by the average player simply bloats the system - it simultaneously renders hard mode content obsolete while massively devaluing the inherent sense of achievement in completing nightmare mode content for the hardcore raider.

 

As things currently stand the difficulty level of hard mode and nightmare content should both be significantly increased. As a rough indicator the current difficulty of nightmare mode content is approximately where hard mode should lie and nightmare difficulty should be completely re-tuned such that the difference in difficulty between normal and the new hard mode is similar to that between hard and nightmare mode. At present there is very, very little difference in difficulty between hard and nightmare mode content on 16 man (possibly 8 as well although I do not have personal experience with this).

 

Lack of Gear Differentiation

 

There is a very distinct lack of gear differentiation between encounters of different difficulty. When I am talking about difficulty in this section I am referring not only to normal/hard/nightmare modes but also to the size of the raid given that (at present) 16 man content is more difficult than 8 man content. The gear available through hard mode flashpoints and normal mode operations feels very well tuned. You accumulate Columi level gear through both of these but at a much faster raid through normal mode operations and this feels very intuitive and makes sense.

 

The problem with this is that with only 1 tier of gear above Columi, Rakata, it means that this is all that can be offered for what are effectively 4 different levels of difficulty - 8 man hard, 8 man nightmare, 16 man hard and 16 man nightmare. The sense of achievement in acquiring a Rakata level piece of armor is severely diminished by the fact that it can be acquired just as easily on 8 man hard mode as on 16 man nightmare mode.

 

There are two possible solutions to this. The first is that more of an effort should be put into ensuring that 8 man and 16 man raids are tuned to the same level, although from the latest Q&A it seems like the intent is simply to swing the pendulum back in the other direction and make 16 man content easier than 8 man content (more on that below). Even if it were possible to balance small group raiding with large group raiding, which seems unlikely given that several MMOs have tried and failed to do so, it would still mean that the problem is merely diminished and not resolved.

 

Assuming that both 8 and 16 man raids were tuned to the same level it would still mean that under the current loot model that hard mode raids were awarding exactly the same loot as nightmare mode raids. This is pretty poor planning. It is far to late in this current tier of content to make sweeping changes but ideally it should have been set up as follows:

 

Normal mode OPs and hard mode flashpoints drop entry level gear

Hard mode OPs drop mid level gear

Nightmare mode OPs drop the best possible gear

 

This would have meant either allocating Tionese level gear to hard mode flashpoints and normal mode operations or else adding a 4th tier of loot higher than Rakata that was only obtainable in nightmare modes. This type of gear spread is very much needed in the next tier of raid content to ensure that each difficulty mode maintains the appropriate level of risk vs reward.

 

Bugs

 

Before I get into the problem of bugged raid content let me say that I understand as a member of a hardcore guild I expect to encounter bugs simply because we are among the first few to complete the content. To expect a bug free raid environment when you are among the first to do said raid content is probably setting yourself up to be disappointed. With that said some of the bugs are so readily reproducable and consistent that I cannot help but believe that the content is either being rushed out with known bugs or that the in house raid testing is lacking or even non-existent.

 

As a developer of an MMO Bioware has any number of guilds at their disposal who would likely assist them with raid testing but it really does seem as if this resource is largely left unused. The ability to call upon a group of people to test your product free of charge is not at all common in most industries and there really is no excuse for Bioware to be releasing raid content that is littered with bugs when they have such a resource available to them.

 

Admittedly of late they have picked up the pace somewhat of late in terms of bug fixing. There does not seem to be any regression testing done with some of these fixes however. A perfect example is in the fix to Soa which prevented the fight from resetting if the tank were to become trapped by a mind trap. The problem was that this fix now causes him to reset threat every time a mind trap is cast. This bug would have been blindingly obvious if the fight was tested even once or twice after the initial fix but instead the secondary bug went live to the game and is still live after a few weeks. More of an effort needs to be made to ensure that these fixes are not simply introducing new bugs into the game.

 

Similarly there are glaring bugs which have simply been ignored for too long. The fact that master loot in operations has frequently caused some loot as well as crafting materials not to drop has been present since release and has STILL yet to be fixed. This is absolutely appalling. Another slightly different example is the bugged reset on the Ancient Pylons encounter in the Eternity Vault. This was supposedly fixed several patches ago according to the patch notes but again, to date this bug is still present in the game.

 

Customer Service

 

This is probably one of the worst aspects of SW:TOR. Response times are the worst I have seen in an MMO with the possible exception of Funcom games. Solutions are rarely found for any problem submitted and the vast bulk of the time you simply receive a generic template reply which indicates that they cannot assist you with your problem but that it has been forwarded on to the appropriate department so that it does not occur in future. With the number of bugs present in the game since release this kind of customer service is entirely inadequate and unacceptable.

 

Given that it has been widely reported that SW:TOR only needed 500,000 subscribers to be profitable and that recent figures show it has over three times that number of subscriptions this lack of investment in delivering quality customer service is nothing short of shameful. I am utterly tired of hearing the argument that the sheer size and scope of SW:TOR and its playerbase makes it virtually impossible for them to deliver good customer service. This is patently absurd. If anything it means that the larger revenues generated by their product make it possible to allocate more resources toward customer service. If this is already occurring then all I can say is that this capital allocated toward customer service is being allocated very wastefully.

 

Lack of Basic Features

 

The lack of basic features that are of critical importance to an MMO with raid content is particularly damning. The lack of a combat log and more detailed UI customization upon release are key features that by this time surely have to be considered as standard. Other features such as dual spec have surely become standard in the MMO industry at this point in time. I am very much aware that the developers have said that these features are being worked on but with a 5 year development and the large development budget of SW:TOR I simply cannot fathom why these features were not available at release.

 

Regarding the Potential Downgrade of 16 Man Operation Difficulty

 

The recent Q&A discussion saw it mentioned that the design intent was for 16 man content to be slightly easier than 8 man content to compensate for the logistics of having to organize a larger number of people. There has been a great outcry over this and for good reason. There are any number of subscribers who want to test themselves vs the most difficult content available to them and if this shifts toward 8 man content instead of 16 man content this will either see guilds running multiple 8 man groups or else fragmenting into several smaller guilds. I genuinely feel that either of these outcomes would be a sad loss for the SW:TOR community as the end result would likely be a game population of small fragmented groups which have very little interaction with each other. This to me goes against the very spirit of what an MMO is all about - it is a slippery slope which diminishes the multi-player element of SW:TOR. Without this multi-player element SW:TOR becomes little more than a single player RPG with very little replay value. I strongly urge the game's designers to re-consider this intended design as it has the potential to be very, very detrimental to the game's long term prospects.

 

What is SW:TOR Getting Right?

 

In terms of raiding I would be being dishonest if I did not say that there is very little that SW:TOR is getting right in terms of its raid content. There are some positive signs though. Fights like Soa really show that Bioware has it within them to generate very dynamic and interesting boss fights that make much more use of the game environment than most other MMOs. If they can couple this with some serious reforms to other aspects of their raiding system, as discussed above, there is no reason they could not go on to dominate the MMO market in much the same way as WoW has for so long.

 

I am not writing this to try and put another nail in SW:TOR's coffin - quite the opposite. When I began playing this game I really thought that this was the next game where I would take root and play for many, many years. I desperately want this game to succeed where so many others have failed shortly after release in recent years. SW:TOR does seem to be heading in that direction however and I can only hope that Bioware takes heed of not just my concerns but of the concerns held by many members of the SW:TOR community. Massive changes in terms of raid design and implementation are absolutely necessary if SW:TOR is to avoid quickly spiraling toward becoming just one of many free to play, casual oriented MMOs on the market.

Edited February 19, 2012 by jingadingdangdo

Very well put my friend. I completely agree with your post, the raid content is severely lacking. I myself blew off a hard mode KP last night since after completing it once our guild already has it on farm. We had the option to go to NM mode but our guild leader decided it was pointless due to the fact that the gear drops are the same as HM. So far the only way I have heard of to actually be challenged is to attempt HM 16 mans with an eight man group.

very nice post dude +1

 

and one more idea maybe you mention it but my english is not very good between modes normal / hard / nightmare i thing for every boss phases they need to add one more phase other wise it will be really bored as it is now.

 

i hope they will fix everything soon my posts is more aggresive then your but im try to say things like you there is something wrong with whole pve system start from tanking and overhelming crowd control skills with items and whole reward system is not proper as i say hope they gone fix it soon

Very nice write up.

 

I'm by no means a hardcore player, and I think you'd be stretched to even call me semi-hardcore. A PvP'er by trade, but I do enjoy the Raids very much. I'd love to see most or all of these changes. I don't mind being locked out of the higher difficulties so long as those difficulties are designed for people willing and able to put in the time because, again, I'm not hardcore. I think part of the reason for the current design has been stated repeatedly by Bioware to justify other changes. They don't WANT anyone to be locked out of anything, they don't WANT anything or anyone to be the end-all-be-all of anything. You can see that in the Biochem nerfs.

 

Eh, idk. I'm like the OP. I DESPERATELY want this game to take off and be the first MMO to really be a real contender vs WoW. Part of that desire stems from the fact that they took SWG away from us. Which is what those of us who came from it would have gone back to had TOR failed hard, wouldn't have been any skin off our backs. But SWG is dead and gone, and I hate to say it, but it seems like TOR is the last shining hope for Star Wars in the MMO scene. With Uncle George pissing in the soup, if TOR fails I'll officially consider the franchise dead.

If you bother reading before typing this post you would of known that Bw has admited there messed up the raid diff and is working on fine turning both diff till it how it was intented. 2ndly didnt there also say there are working on different gear for both 8man and 16 man opt? Yes i agree with the bugs but tbh its only feb and people already demanding new content let bw fix the bugs in the game which stopping people actully playing the game and these bugs will get fixed when there ethier figure how to fix it and get to it. Yes it can be fustrating clearing everything and having little to do but bw even stated there where focusing more on the story then the end game already also on that note look how long it takes other game to bring out content.

 

And no im not a fanboy just sick of people complaining and demanding more content and the diff being increased when there other players who cant even level there chara due to getting launcher issues.

 

P.s please input all fan boi replys and troll under here

If you bother reading before typing this post you would of known that Bw has admited there messed up the raid diff and is working on fine turning both diff till it how it was intented.

 

You should heed your own advice. As my post clearly states I am aware of their design intent for raid difficulty and all they have said is that they are aiming for 16 man content to be slightly easier than 8 man content. I addressed my thoughts on this in my post.

 

2ndly didnt there also say there are working on different gear for both 8man and 16 man opt?

 

No. They have not said anything to this effect.

 

Yes i agree with the bugs but tbh its only feb and people already demanding new content let bw fix the bugs in the game which stopping people actully playing the game and these bugs will get fixed when there ethier figure how to fix it and get to it. Yes it can be fustrating clearing everything and having little to do but bw even stated there where focusing more on the story then the end game already also on that note look how long it takes other game to bring out content.

 

There is not one sentence in my post that demands content be brought out faster. I happen to think every 2-3 months is fine so long as the content is difficult enough.

We had the option to go to NM mode but our guild leader decided it was pointless due to the fact that the gear drops are the same as HM.

 

Appreciate your input and this is a shining example of what I mean when I say that the risk vs reward in SW:TOR operations is severely out of whack.

I don't have much experience with late game raiding so I can't really comment but I just wanted to drop in and say that you write extremely well. Well thought out and logical.

first, you need to remember (or realize if you werent here in these forums since '08) that the vast majority of community members voted against raiding of any kind at all. This game was never meant to be wow. But raids are here and that's great for those who like that. But i don't think Bioware should tune up raid difficulty to "hardcore wow raid guild" difficulty because of a very few guilds. I wouldn't mind seeing a harder MODE for those who elect to enjoy it, and a SLIGHTLY improved set of rewards, but once they become the end-all be-all rewards, those without hardcore guilds and elevated status within those guilds become the galactic beggars. I think BW was smart for not creating the very sense of elitism and exclusion that so many originally clamored against on these forums.

Nightmare mode should be tuned such that it absolutely requires every raider to put in the maximum possible effort in terms of pre-raid preparation. It should also require an exceptionally high level of execution and strategy to complete encounters at this level. There is absolutely no reason why nightmare mode content should not be tuned to this level given that normal mode gives the more casual player an entry point to raiding and hard mode gives them something to aspire to.

 

Given that Nightmare currently gives out almost completely identical gear as Hardmode.. it should not be tuned as you're suggesting yet.

 

Ideally, Nightmare should've remained locked until the reward it gives would fall inline with the difficulty that you're suggesting in terms of tuning. If they tune Nighmare to the extent that you're suggesting now while still dropping the same gear that's available in Hardmode... there would be very little reason to run it. Granted, this problem is still evident in it's current iteration, but the rewards fall in line with difficulty difference.

 

TL;DR

Nightmare rewards only slightly better than Hardmode for a Difficulty slightly harder than Hardmode. This is a balanced design. If/When Nightmare is tuned to a much more difficult experience, the rewards will need to be significantly better than Hardmode rewards.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Jest

first, you need to remember (or realize if you werent here in these forums since '08) that the vast majority of community members voted against raiding of any kind at all. This game was never meant to be wow. But raids are here and that's great for those who like that. But i don't think Bioware should tune up raid difficulty to "hardcore wow raid guild" difficulty because of a very few guilds. I wouldn't mind seeing a harder MODE for those who elect to enjoy it, and a SLIGHTLY improved set of rewards, but once they become the end-all be-all rewards, those without hardcore guilds and elevated status within those guilds become the galactic beggars. I think BW was smart for not creating the very sense of elitism and exclusion that so many originally clamored against on these forums.

 

The three difficulty modes inherently represent the choice that can be made to play on a harder difficulty for those who enjoy it. I was very clear in my post that I think normal mode has been tuned correctly but that hard and nightmare mode content have been both inadequately tuned and inadequately incentivized.

 

The one thing I do agree with you on is that the gear difference between the tiers does not need to be very big although for me this is more to prevent stat inflation than anything else.

Edited February 19, 2012 by jingadingdangdo

Given that Nightmare currently gives out almost completely identical gear as Hardmode.. it should not be tuned as you're suggesting yet.

 

My post already goes over my thoughts on hard mode and nightmare mode rewarding the same grade of loot so this is a moot point. The point of my post is not to go over things as they are but how I think they should be. My point is simply that both changes would need to be made - it is plainly obvious, as you have pointed out, that it would not be feasible to re-tune the raids without re-turning the gear.

 

Additionally, I also conceded in my original post that it is not a good idea to make these changes in the current tier of content. If anything these are all changes which should be implemented for the next tier of content, not before.

Edited February 19, 2012 by jingadingdangdo

My post already goes over my thoughts on hard mode and nightmare mode rewarding the same grade of loot so this is a moot point. The point of my post is not to go over things as they are but how I think they should be. My point is simply that both changes would need to be made - it is plainly obvious, as you have pointed out, that it would not be feasible to re-tune the raids without re-turning the gear.

 

Additionally, I also conceded in my original post that it is not a good idea to make these changes in the current tier of content. If anything these are all changes which should be implemented for the next tier of content, not before.

 

You can't discuss how things should be if you're not discussing how things are now. Suggesting things be changed without regarding likely reasons for why it is currently is unwise and a little insulting towards the designers.

 

Your post, while very well written, is pretty unnecessary as it's just an amalgamation of the complaints and suggestions being made in a variety of other threads. Especially since you posted this thread and have since proceeded to respond to most discussion points with (paraphrasing here) "I covered this in my post so it's not worth discussing."

 

You've just as much right to post a thread as anyone else... but you may want to consider fleshing out full discussions with those that post in the thread so as to make it more useful to everyone. Just a suggestion.

You can't discuss how things should be if you're not discussing how things are now. Suggesting things be changed without regarding likely reasons for why it is currently is unwise and a little insulting towards the designers.

 

Your post, while very well written, is pretty unnecessary as it's just an amalgamation of the complaints and suggestions being made in a variety of other threads. Especially since you posted this thread and have since proceeded to respond to most discussion points with (paraphrasing here) "I covered this in my post so it's not worth discussing."

 

You've just as much right to post a thread as anyone else... but you may want to consider fleshing out full discussions with those that post in the thread so as to make it more useful to everyone. Just a suggestion.

 

sorry but i cant take it are you happy with game how it is now ?

 

mostly bugged in pvp and pve

ui is not useful at all

 

if i start to write bugs where i know i thing you will need whole new forum for it

thats why stop with that attitude and protect a half ended game this game need to be in beta test but if im not wrong because of EA they start it before development work finish and now we pay and just get useless little fixes

 

but i still have hope i thing they will change things in future hope i can wait

You can't discuss how things should be if you're not discussing how things are now. Suggesting things be changed without regarding likely reasons for why it is currently is unwise and a little insulting towards the designers.

 

I'm obviously discussing how things are now if I am discussing how they should be. This is the whole point of my critique - I have examined the current raid design and I am very critical of it. It is my intention to be critical of it because I believe the current design is especially poor. My whole argument is constructed around how things are now.

 

If you want to challenge me on not examining more closely why things are the way they are now then that is a valid criticism. I did not put any emphasis on this in my original post although it is something I have given an awful lot of consideration toward. To be totally honest I simply cannot fathom why the design is currently the way it is. It makes no logical sense whatsoever to have 3 difficulty modes if you don't plan to to actually make use of that capacity for the differentiation of difficulty. If their goal is simply to make a game where all raid content is easily beaten then having 3 difficulty modes is utterly superfluous.

 

Especially since you posted this thread and have since proceeded to respond to most discussion points with (paraphrasing here) "I covered this in my post so it's not worth discussing."

 

I'm not saying that it is not worth discussing at all. Your initial post challenging my argument referred to a point that I am simply not making. For example I never suggested any of these fixes should be implemented in isolation which seemed to be your main critique of my argument. See below:

 

If they tune Nighmare to the extent that you're suggesting now while still dropping the same gear that's available in Hardmode... there would be very little reason to run it.

 

For that criticism to be valid I would have had to say somewhere that they should implement my proposed changes to raid tuning while NOT implementing the proposed changes I suggested under the problem of gear differentiation. If you can find anywhere I stated or even suggested such I'll eat my hat.

 

The TLDR version is that I'm simply saying your argument is criticizing a point I never made in the first place and is thus redundant.

 

It's not my intention to get into a slanging match with you at any rate so I will simply agree to disagree.

Edited February 19, 2012 by jingadingdangdo

The three difficulty modes inherently represent the choice that can be made to play on a harder difficulty for those who enjoy it. I was very clear in my post that I think normal mode has been tuned correctly but that hard and nightmare mode content have been both inadequately tuned and inadequately incentivized.

 

The one thing I do agree with you on is that the gear difference between the tiers does not need to be very big although for me this is more to prevent stat inflation than anything else.

 

Basically this. The point of difficulties with inevitably mean some people wont be able to do the higher ones. Otherwise... whats the logic in having them at all? People were really going for difficulties before 'now everyone can be happy and the hardcore raiders can shut up!' now these same people go on about elitists all the same but effectively laying claim to the whole game. Kind of proves that the people who raged about it before dont have a logical point where they stop, they are so blinded by what they percieve as 'raiding elitists' that all they want to do is complain. Sad really.

they really need to make nightmare mode 10x harder than what it is now and drop tons of loot, social gear, mounts, vanity items, titles, pets, and various other things

 

make it what it should be, a prestige thing for only the hardcore-est of hardcore

I'm just hoping the second tier of content is harder comparatively (i.e. it isn't cleared in the first night). It seems to be the trend in most MMOs.

Basically this. The point of difficulties with inevitably mean some people wont be able to do the higher ones. Otherwise... whats the logic in having them at all? People were really going for difficulties before 'now everyone can be happy and the hardcore raiders can shut up!' now these same people go on about elitists all the same but effectively laying claim to the whole game. Kind of proves that the people who raged about it before dont have a logical point where they stop, they are so blinded by what they percieve as 'raiding elitists' that all they want to do is complain. Sad really.

 

so actually i see your a pvp player right ?

 

( now these same people go on about elitists all the same but effectively laying claim to the whole game )

 

if you didint please go on some flashpoints not even operation just 2 or 3 simple flashpoint and watch the tanking system and crowd control system and you will see oh no not see you will feel that there is something missing something wrong is not how its supposed to be but if you tell me swtor is not pve game at first place its designed for pvp game then they add some contents and they didint do it properly ok its no problem but in whole pve system there is too many errors not bugs errors in mechanisim and also this problem cant be solved that easy thats why we need to wait maybe after 3 or 4 or 5 updates later this will gone start

 

if your a pvp player can you tell me the game is balanced and pvp is fixed ?

if your a pvp player can you tell me the game is balanced and pvp is fixed ?

 

I'm not a pvp player . As such considering your whole refutation was based on my being an 'ignorant pvp player who hasnt stepped into pve content' pretty much just invalidates your entire counterargument.

 

Though I do find pvp more enjoyable in TOR than most other MMOs...

Edited February 19, 2012 by silverprovidence

I'm just hoping the second tier of content is harder comparatively (i.e. it isn't cleared in the first night). It seems to be the trend in most MMOs.

 

I agree totally. The communication we've had from the developers thus far doesn't make me very optimistic that there will be any relative increase in difficulty though.

I agree totally. The communication we've had from the developers thus far doesn't make me very optimistic that there will be any relative increase in difficulty though.

 

That'd be the ticket wouldn't it? I'm of the opinion that, seeing as this is Bioware's first shot at this sort of a product, the communication will improve over time. Say what you will about capitol investment or what have you, I think they're gonna need to learn that lesson the hard way if they're not already at least thinking about it.

So what is is that hardcore raiders want?

 

Higher Challenge or Top Loot?

 

"Hardcore Raiding" shouldn't reward anything more than a feeling of accomplishment from getting the content itself done. Nothing Extra. There should not be any "Risk vs Reward" factor. You either do the raids on hard mode because you like to or you don't.

 

If your argument is that there is no incentive to do so, than the want for challenge in raiding is not enough to outweigh the lust for loot and exclusivity.

 

Vanity items are a decent bridge here. Nothing so much stat-wise, but something that gives a title or completing it would be more in line with a reasonable system.

 

Face it... EQ is a model that will never get as many subscribers as one that is way more accessible. If you want "Epic Raidz" go back to EQ and wait for days to camp a spawn you need 72 people to ace. Those kind of "hardcore" raids perpetuate the stereotype that MMO's are for clammy, basement dwelling trolls.

 

The only way to break that would be to change the model so drastically that anyone can be a part of it, not just those with a lot of time on their hands, which is where MMO Design is going.

 

It's no longer about how to challenge a player, it's about how to retain players. You don't do that by putting massive roadblocks in the way of your basest of players who will remain loyal even if you poke them in the eyes repeatedly. Everyone wants to be the hero and try to be the best. Open accessibility is the way to create that illusion.

 

 

Another take: Ever since video games became more "art" than "game" the artist wants the participant (player) to experience it as a whole, because if they do not, the art's effect is lost. Just food for thought.

 

Apologies for the abrasive nature of some of this, but the hardcore model is a dinosaur. You only need to look as far as the number of people who play Farmville to see that. Woe to us as gamers when the day comes that Farmville is the only alternative, but it is definitely where it is going.

I'm not a pvp player . As such considering your whole refutation was based on my being an 'ignorant pvp player who hasnt stepped into pve content' pretty much just invalidates your entire counterargument.

 

Though I do find pvp more enjoyable in TOR than most other MMOs...

 

sorry but i dont understand how you can be pve player and dont accept that the game is not ready

 

i like both pvp and pve now i gone tell you some bugs

 

1. kill last boss in any flash point and die in same time or just one person in party die and missclick and resurrect out of instance he cant get drop

 

2. in most of flashpoints players dont need to use any kind of crowd control because items overhelm that and most of people see crowd control as waste of time

 

3. in most of flash points and operations the first boss is the hardest one why?

 

4. kaon bonus boss can be pulled and can be killed without druids

 

5. kaon torret phase can be avoided players can go and some or something

 

6. pvp how dps e got 2.5k heal 5k heal 75k heal medals there is one pot wich give %50 and is count as healing some of meele dpses get 11 - 15 medals *** !!!!

 

7. we have 8 type of characters why in most of them 1 talent tree is complete useless = because of game mechanics is not let you play that tlanet tree is not calculated as it should be

 

7. why i can kill full champion concelment operative with my centrious powertech as pyrotech ? what a balance

 

8. why in pvp healers after get they are champions cant be killed by 2 peoples and is needed third person with champion ? = because when you interrupt its stop just that heal not they family skills of that skill

 

9. omg i used my break free why im cced again with same seconds omg that sage or inquistor put me to whirlwind for 20 sec after i was stunned just sec ago

 

10. my operative still has 2 class quests wich i finished 3 times already and cotinue to 50 now im 50 and i cant delete thos 2 class quests they stuck one me i spend 4 hours to find what is cause about that quest problem and how its proccess and then open ticked

 

dudeeee i can continue with this kind of bugs and issuses just accept it yes swtor is a game wich give a hope but is not ready not at that point

 

and im not arguing with you i just want to see this game in the best place and thats why im write thing and send tickets im not simply QQ maybe im aggressive but in every my post and every my ticked i explain what is my problem and what is cause it

Edited February 19, 2012 by matmert

sorry but i dont understand how you can be pve player and dont accept that the game is not ready

 

I never said the game was ready or working well. My original post was condemning the hypocricy of the 'anti-raiders' on this forum who publicly go for a 'live and let live' approach while at the same time spitting the kind of venom I'd expect if we were shooting each other.