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Marauder becoming an obsolete class in Onslaught, for PvP


Real_FlyGonz

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Being a marauder main in pvp is not for the feint of heart. It is probably one of the harder classes to master in pvp combat, especially if you are targeted or 1v1. So I was expecting some nice buffs to the defense of this class or maybe a bit more damage than it currently puts out.

 

I know, some of you are thinking more defense or dps would make marauder the most OP thing in the game. But lets remember that there already is a "marauder" that hits harder and has better defense, the Rage Jugg.

 

Reading the patch notes and feedback from the PTS, it seems that they have yet to realize that marauders are nothing more than lackluster juggs. They offered no major buff to the class to make it stand out from the jugg in combat, aside from the already superior mobility which means not much in pvp during a 1v2+. Instead they buff jugg defense and leave marauder with some mediocre, at best, buffs to our avoidance and some new interactive ability.

 

Can a Dev or someone who actually helps make class changes explain the reasoning on why you make a jugg have more dps than a marauder when they have 5x the survivability? Maybe I am missing some major buff to the class coming in Onslaught, but so far the few changes I read are not enough to make a glass canon, like the marauder, beat other classes in dps while having way less defensives.

 

Devs please fix marauder in onslaught instead of keeping it in the shadows of jugg.

Edited by Real_FlyGonz
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As someone who currently plays both Guardian and Sentinel, and has mained Guardians for over half a decade, when I want to PvP on a single target "burst" spec, I go for my concentration sent. Yes, even when I'm playing solo. Concentration hits harder than Focus, it has better immunity, more ability to stay on target, an actual disengage, everything except FD, taunts, and guard. And for the purposes of your argument, guard and taunts are irrelevant because guard will kill you very quickly as a dps if you don't properly pull it off, and you did not mention taunts yourself. Furthermore, sent has tools that also grant team utility, specifically because it is a "pure" dps class (i.e. there is no sentinel tank or healing spec).

 

Now, if you want to say Vigilance is a better PvP spec than Watchman, then we can talk. In the meantime, you simply need to learn to use the tools you have properly. Or you know, just be yet another Juggernaut that doesn't know how to play the class and can't outdamage the tank.

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Thank you for your reply.

 

I cant speak to pub classes or specs. I am only knowledgeable with sith classes, specs, and abilities.

 

A jug,g in rage spec, can out dps a marauder. Maybe this isnt something guardians can do, but juggs absolutely do. Ask any sith pvp player who is well versed in the ranked or even reg community.

 

My quarrel is with the fact that a pure dps class, like my marauder, is even remotely similar or less effective in dps as a class that has tank defensive cooldowns. Such as ED and others.

 

I can understand that rage is a dps spec and should pull good dps, but take away ED or something to make it balanced. No reason for a class to have the best of both worlds.

 

Just to clarify, I know marauder in and out. I play at a high level in pvp. Im just talking about how we will be left in the dirt come Onslaught. Every class is getting really good defensive or offensive or even both buffed. Marauder is barely getting a buff.

 

I intend to do my best to work with what Onslaught makes my marauder out to be, just as I have up to date.

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Thank you for your reply.

 

I cant speak to pub classes or specs. I am only knowledgeable with sith classes, specs, and abilities.

 

A jug,g in rage spec, can out dps a marauder. Maybe this isnt something guardians can do, but juggs absolutely do. Ask any sith pvp player who is well versed in the ranked or even reg community.

 

My quarrel is with the fact that a pure dps class, like my marauder, is even remotely similar or less effective in dps as a class that has tank defensive cooldowns. Such as ED and others.

 

I can understand that rage is a dps spec and should pull good dps, but take away ED or something to make it balanced. No reason for a class to have the best of both worlds.

 

Just to clarify, I know marauder in and out. I play at a high level in pvp. Im just talking about how we will be left in the dirt come Onslaught. Every class is getting really good defensive or offensive or even both buffed. Marauder is barely getting a buff.

 

I intend to do my best to work with what Onslaught makes my marauder out to be, just as I have up to date.

 

Just going to say it now, guardian and jug, senntinel and marauder are mirrored classes - aka they do the exact same dps and have the exact same abiltites just named diffrent (outside of bugs which caused certain abiltites to do more damage. which have happend in the past with certain mirrored classes, but those aren't present right now)

 

And on pts (which I suggest you try out rn) ahni is doing ALOT of damage, not really checked the other 2 specs, but I really suggest you hop on, and try it.

 

(also fury out dps's rage by a lot.)

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snip

 

The classes are exact mirrors - I am simply using the terminology I know best.

 

If you are being out dps by a rage juggie as a fury mara, you're doing something wrong.

 

Your protest seems to be FD, because outside of that, mara has the same or superior tools. We both have ward. Guardians have reflect and enure, but maras have guarded by the force and rebuke. And maras have force camo in addition.

 

In terms of staying on target, rage and fury both have the second leap and mad dash, but maras also have transcendence. Learn to use these tools

 

You want to prove to me you're high level in PvP prove it. What have you actually managed to do? I've got screenshots showing what I've done all over this forum, and spent time as probably the most hated guardian on SS back when I was guild leading there. Who I am and what I have done is no big secret.

 

I'm not on PTS so I'm not going to speak to the onslaught changes just yet.

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Now, if you want to say Vigilance is a better PvP spec than Watchman, then we can talk. In the meantime, you simply need to learn to use the tools you have properly. Or you know, just be yet another Juggernaut that doesn't know how to play the class and can't outdamage the tank.

 

Incorrect

Watchman is right behind fury. Its honestly not that big of a difference. Just people are bad at it because its not as brain dead.

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I know classes are mirrors from pub to imp, I just dont know the names of the mirror specs. That was what I meant when I said I don't know about guardian.

 

Again, you keep saying to learn my class, as if I dont know how to use every single ability at my disposal... trust me I do. Thats not whats at question. Even some of the best marauders on star forge are abandoning their maras, due to it being left in the dust, in comparison to other classes IN ONSLAUGHT.

 

Another thing, I actually tested my theory on rage jugg and fury mara being the exact same amount of dmg. Not only do they have the exact same rotation, with the exact same abilities (that also do the same damage) but jugg have more survivability. This is all related to PvP dps, not PvE. If you like, do the research I did. Look at the damage on the tooltip of furious strike on a jugg at item rating 258 (about 15000-16500) and compare to a mara's furious strike at item.rating 258 (the same numbers). Hence my issue with jugg dps and mara dps. Same abilities, same damage, minus ED which is god mode in pvp. The only thing to do against ED is notice it fast and cc them with all you got... for 12 seconds.

 

Someone memtioned annhialation as very high dps in the PTS. Is that parsing in PvE or PvP? DoT do well of you arent in a hurry, but in PvP as a mara, you usually need to kill quick due to lack of survivability.

Edited by Real_FlyGonz
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I don't think you're playing your Mara well. Marauder is better than Juggernaut.

 

 

  • Are you not stealthing out and healing to full? Use Force Camouflage.
  • Force Crush makes you immune to stuns, roots, slows, and knockbacks for 6s.
  • You have super speed for your whole raid every 30s via Predation.
  • You have Cloak of Pain which gives you 20% DR and deals damage back to the attacker (up to 30s duration).
  • You have a raid buff called Bloodthirst.
  • You have Undying Rage which makes you immune to damage (99% of it) for 4s.
  • You have Obfuscate for single targets that makes them miss all their attacks.
  • You have Crippling Slash that reduces healing and slows the target.

 

 

What does jugg have? ED, a crappy reflect, saber ward (which maras have too), force push, and endure pain?

 

Marauder takes more skill to master, Juggernaut is kind of braindead.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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I don't think you're playing your Mara well. Marauder is better than Juggernaut.

 

 

  • Are you not stealthing out and healing to full? Use Force Camouflage.
  • Force Crush makes you immune to stuns, roots, slows, and knockbacks for 6s.
  • You have super speed for your whole raid every 30s via Predation.
  • You have Cloak of Pain which gives you 20% DR and deals damage back to the attacker (up to 30s duration).
  • You have a raid buff called Bloodthirst.
  • You have Undying Rage which makes you immune to damage (99% of it) for 4s.
  • You have Obfuscate for single targets that makes them miss all their attacks.
  • You have Crippling Slash that reduces healing and slows the target.

 

 

What does jugg have? ED, a crappy reflect, saber ward (which maras have too), force push, and endure pain?

 

Marauder takes more skill to master, Juggernaut is kind of braindead.

 

Exactly, juggs have literally nothing besides ED. Their Passive DR is completely surpassed by mara just by pressing Cloak of Pain. Endure Pain in Vengeance is a bit of a DCD but not much. Dash and Ward - mara has that too. Reflect is nice but it doesn't protect you against white melee attacks at all, at best you buy yourself 3-4 seconds of time when people stop hitting you.

 

That's literally it. They have no CC immunity like Fury, they have no stealth out, they have no total DMG immunity, and no accuracy debuff they have no healing debuffs to fight heal classes, their DCDs are also painfully obvious: for example, Shield symbol for Vengeance - once it ends, it's like screaming "stun me now!".

 

They can just heal to full one time and then die.

Edited by Equeliber
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Im aware of all the awesome tools mara has, and the cool utilities it has. But again... I am talking mainly about Onslaught. Every class got huge buffs in one way or another. Mara got some more utilities.

 

Using force camoflauge is only good if they leave you alone after it ends a few seconds later. Then the game takes like a year to make you leave combat to heal up.

 

I am also looking at this from a dueling standpoint, which is a huge weekness in this game. Dueling is not balanced at all, but it shows you if a class is weaker than another in a pvp 1v1 situation. Jugg will always beat a mara, unless the jugg is brain dead and doesnt know his rotation in pvp. Mara cant stealth out of a 1v1, if the opponent is even half decent.

Edited by Real_FlyGonz
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I will make one closing remark and drop the subject.

 

Thank you guys for your opinions and replies.

 

I just wanted a Dev to respond to my concerns with marauder pvp in Onslaught.

 

P.S. I appreciate the tooltip copy paste of marauder abilities, but it was unnecessary.

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It might help if you were more specific. What are juggs getting compared to maras in onslaught that, in your opinion, makes them so wildly better? Looking at both in the PTS forum, I'm thoroughly underwhelmed by both. In fact, by all of them I've seen for every class so far. Have you played both on the PTS? I refuse to address the issue personally because I haven't.
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Carnage players are basically not being compensated in playing carnage vs fury. Fury will remain a thing and it's not going away anytime soon. Anni...well that's for certain group ranked compositions, dots on melee dps can be a tricky thing.
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Im aware of all the awesome tools mara has, and the cool utilities it has. But again... I am talking mainly about Onslaught. Every class got huge buffs in one way or another. Mara got some more utilities.

 

The new marauder set bonus looks better than jugg's. The Rage and Fury tactical items are identical. The new ability is identical. Please have a look on the PTS forum because you are wrong.

 

Using force camoflauge is only good if they leave you alone after it ends a few seconds later. Then the game takes like a year to make you leave combat to heal up.

 

I am also looking at this from a dueling standpoint, which is a huge weekness in this game. Dueling is not balanced at all, but it shows you if a class is weaker than another in a pvp 1v1 situation. Jugg will always beat a mara, unless the jugg is brain dead and doesnt know his rotation in pvp. Mara cant stealth out of a 1v1, if the opponent is even half decent.

 

Force camo and run far away. If you don't have the utility that extends the duration of camo, then you really need to use Predation with it.

 

In a 1v1, a Marauder will beat a Jugg by using all the abilities I listed in my previous post. You know you can Intimidating Roar the Jugg while ED is up, right? Barring that, you can Obfuscate him. The trick is to not attack him while ED is up.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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So... I decided to correct a few things here, from a rage jugg main for 3 years (5.x) and I play fury mara (but don't like to)

 

So first thing is fury and rage don't share the same rotation. Next to the fact that ravage has a crit chance bonus in jugg set, ravage has little to no point on rage jugg. You could literaly take it off your bar and replace it's use with a vicious slash and you would notice no difference. Fury however requires either ravage or saber throw to auto crit bonus their furious strike. For jugg it is force scream that auto crits their furious strike, on mara force scream is nothing but a no rage filler waiting for the 30 stacks. Last thing I'm going to mention is a mara does not gain a damage bonus from the 30 stacks for raging burst, only from force crush.. why mention this? Because unlike the mara a jugg gets a damage bonus from Both force crush and enrage, which brings us to my next point.

 

Jugg appears to possess higher damage because every raging burst is 24k-26k (due to every raging burst following either enrage or force crush) as opposed to maras 22k-24k depending on whether they force crushed or not. Not only that but a jugg gets a 15% critical bonus over maras 10%. This is why a maras furious strike typical deals 28-30k while a jugg can hit a whopping 35k... on average. However mara have offhand damage and something called "bloody slashes" which is a lingering DoT from ravage. Jugg does not get this and is the primary reason that a rage jugg really has no use for ravage, no cd reduction, no DoT and no damage bonus outside of set bonus crit chance. Combined with "Bloody slashes" and offhand damage maras easily equal a juggs bonus 5% crit chance.

 

The last point I am going to make is a much shorter and simpler statement. Fury Mara is a quasi burst spec not a burst spec. Quasi burst offers more utility but less damage. The burst spec of mara is carnage and carnage damage giggles at jugg. You are trying to compare apples to oranges because you think fury mara is the burst spec. Carnage is, which means fury has less dps, meanwhile rage is the jugg burst, it is not considered "quasi" so realisticaly you need to compare burst v burst damage, and carnage is superior to rage.

 

Until this game gains a game mode that incorperates duels as anything more than a social activity devs are under no pressure to make any changes whatsoever to balance and/or build anything around 1v1 combat.

Edited by Seterade
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Seterade, there is so much wrong with your post, I don't even know where to start.

 

First of all,

 

Last thing I'm going to mention is a mara does not gain a damage bonus from the 30 stacks for raging burst, only from force crush.. why mention this? Because unlike the mara a jugg gets a damage bonus from Both force crush and enrage, which brings us to my next point.

 

When marauder gets 30 stacks, he uses Berserk which in Fury functions exactly the same way as Enrage in Rage. It does give you the same 15% damage bonus to Raging Burst (read passives, may be, just once?) and generates the same amount of rage.

 

Jugg appears to possess higher damage because every raging burst is 24k-26k (due to every raging burst following either enrage or force crush) - I already adressed this, it's the same for them both as opposed to maras 22k-24k depending on whether they force crushed or not. Not only that but a jugg gets a 15% critical bonus over maras 10%. This is why a maras furious strike typical deals 28-30k while a jugg can hit a whopping 35k... on average. - 5% crit damage difference is equal to 5k? Are you serious? The only reason jugg can land a 35k Furious Strike is because of Pooled Hatred utility - up to 50% (5 * 10%) more damage on the next skill from each time you are getting slowed

 

Another thing to add, it's marauder who has 24-26k Raging Bursts on average. Marauder has a proc after Furious strike that makes Raging burst do 15% more critical damage. Jugg doesn't have that. Jugg is the one who has 20-22k Raging bursts, The only time jugg can hit a bigger Raging Burst than a mara is again, because of Pooled Hatred utility.

 

However mara have offhand damage and something called "bloody slashes" which is a lingering DoT from ravage. Jugg does not get this and is the primary reason that a rage jugg really has no use for ravage, no cd reduction, no DoT and no damage bonus outside of set bonus crit chance. Combined with "Bloody slashes" and offhand damage maras easily equal a juggs bonus 5% crit chance.

 

Bloody Slashes does more damage than a half of Ravage. It's much, much stronger than 5% crit chance.

 

 

The last point I am going to make is a much shorter and simpler statement. Fury Mara is a quasi burst spec not a burst spec. Quasi burst offers more utility but less damage.

 

This is just a ridiculous statement. Quasi-burst is a mix between sustain and burst. By the words of the combat team themselves, quasi-burst spec is supposed to have more DPS that any burst spec. And after numerous balance changes last year, Fury is indeed doing more damage than Rage.

 

The burst spec of mara is carnage and carnage damage giggles at jugg. You are trying to compare apples to oranges because you think fury mara is the burst spec. Carnage is, which means fury has less dps, meanwhile rage is the jugg burst, it is not considered "quasi" so realisticaly you need to compare burst v burst damage, and carnage is superior to rage.

 

DPS =/= Burst damage. And again, quasi-burst is absolutely supposed to have more DPS than burst.

Edited by Equeliber
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before I reply to that I'm going to go back to all the dev posts and get passive screenshots.

 

Like I said, if I'm wrong I always admit it. The 30 stack did change the raging burst, this doesnt chagne the fact that dps in 5.0 was balanced around DoT, Quasi and Burst in that order and each tier was seperated by a 5% max dmg to compensate for passive effects like aror penertration, trauma, sunder ect. and carnage is the burst. but I will find erics post on the balance of quasi v burst v dot

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924810&highlight=quasi-burst

 

Eric outlines that the target dps of fury vs rage and carnage is 2.5%. understand I never advocated fury is weaker, I said it is easy to see "why" someone would think rage was stronger. I have seen carnage maras duel fury, I have seen the difference in 1v1 dps output and carnage is much faster and more dangerous that fury. That 2.5% dmg out put doesn't save fury from the armor penetration or sundering dmg of carnage. Jugg however doesn't have these tools and not only does he not equal carnage at all but he falls short of fury as well.

 

Maybe this all works differently in pve where a fury mara benefits from a carnage and jugg debiffs but I was under the impression he was talking about pvp, not pve and specificaly dueling.

 

 

he's talking about pvp..... it doesnt matter what happens in pve.

 

WAIIIT.... I just remembered... I never run pooled hatred on rage jugg in pvp. I run no pushback on leap charge and unshackling rage... bud juggs can definitely hit 35k FS and if you can't that is a you problem. It doesn't change anything, having 5k more dmg on one move doesnt change that their inferior to fury maras but yeh... that was a really odd correction you made.

you don'trun pooled hatred on rage because half your rotation has no rage cost, in fact only vicious slash, FS and um.. the 30% or less one.. its called vicious throw, been a key binder for so long Iv forgotten what abilities are called even on my main classes. also I guess force crush costs rage /shrug

Edited by Seterade
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Im aware of all the awesome tools mara has, and the cool utilities it has. But again... I am talking mainly about Onslaught. Every class got huge buffs in one way or another. Mara got some more utilities.

 

Using force camoflauge is only good if they leave you alone after it ends a few seconds later. Then the game takes like a year to make you leave combat to heal up.

 

I am also looking at this from a dueling standpoint, which is a huge weekness in this game. Dueling is not balanced at all, but it shows you if a class is weaker than another in a pvp 1v1 situation. Jugg will always beat a mara, unless the jugg is brain dead and doesnt know his rotation in pvp. Mara cant stealth out of a 1v1, if the opponent is even half decent.

 

Totally fatuous complaints. Maras are already amazing in pvp, and several of their tacticals and set bonuses make them even better. Sorcs and sins, already much worse than maras, got much worse set bonuses and tacticals.

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Sure hope so. The best class in PVP ought to be knocked down a few bars.

 

Other classes deserve some love, like sorcs. How BW has let the most iconic and awesome class on the game sit at the bottom of the pile for 3+ years is nothing short of a travesty.

 

#NerfMarauders

 

#BuffSorcs AKA MakeSorcsGreatAgain!

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I will agree that their new ability Furious Focus is a little underwhelming, mostly because (not sure if this was changed, if so I'll stand corrected) every charge will be used once you activate the ability, instead of one at a time. Sure, it'll be help with the initial burst, but some may want to save each of those stacks for a particular ability instead of blowing them all at once.

 

That being said, with tactical items and set bonuses, Maras are getting some boosts to their defenses. When you take into account the fact that many agree that Maras have the strongest set of defensives outside of Mercs, they shouldn't be underestimated, especially when boosted by the right utils (should be easier with 9 utils granted). For example, and I know the OP touched on this, but the Force Camo CD refreshing after predation is huge. Equipping that tactical item along with the Util which makes Camo last 6 seconds and faster movement, you'll be able to cover more ground to escape. Or, if you're playing in matches with heals, you'll be able to receive more heals because you'll be cloaked for much longer. When taking into account the CD for Camo being 45 secs and Pred 30 sec, it can be tough to burst down a mara when supported properly.

 

One set bonuses that I'm not sure has been broached on here, but there is a set bonus that makes Intimidating Roar act like Diversion (admittedly smaller range and can't expose cover targets), greatly reducing accuracy of those affected after the soft stun wears out. Coupling that set bonus with the Util which lowers the CD of Intimidating Roar by 15 sec....you've got a mini-Diversion, in addition to the 6 second AOE soft stun.

 

Of course, we won't know for sure how the meta will shape up until 6.0 comes around and the PVP community gains a better understanding of how the classes will work. But, I still think maras will be in a solid state come 6.0.

Edited by Csjbo
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Keep in mind most of 5.x meta revolved around the utility changes. Mercs got Trauma Regulators and that kolto enhancer. Maras got ruthless aggressor as well as a ton of utilitys being stratigicaly combined in the right tiers for easy selection. Snipers got healing roll and healing ballistic shield.

 

Most of 5.xs meta was decided by the new utilitys, and last time I was on pts, my jugg didnt have any changes to utilities, so unless they changed that, we haven't seen the utility changes for 6.x

Edited by Seterade
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Keep in mind most of 5.x meta revolved around the utility changes. Mercs got Trauma Regulators and that kolto enhancer. Maras got ruthless aggressor as well as a ton of utilitys being stratigicaly combined in the right tiers for easy selection. Snipers got healing roll and healing ballistic shield.

 

Most of 5.xs meta was decided by the new utilitys, and last time I was on pts, my jugg didnt have any changes to utilities, so unless they changed that, we haven't seen the utility changes for 6.x

 

That's a possibility, but I'm not sure the Utilities will be changed that much with 6.0, rather the main change to the balance of play coming from the Tactical Items and Set Bonuses (to a certain extent the new abilities). Could be wrong, but BW making massive changes to Utilities WHILE adding in the Tactical Items/Set Bonuses would seem to be too crazy for them.

Edited by Csjbo
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  • 1 month later...

It seems stats/gear makes more of a difference than class selection. I have slaughtered every class and have been slaughtered by every class. I did not outplay these people and was not outplayed by these people(obviously some were good close fights). My stats were simply better or worse. This is not Mount and Blade where day1 naked with skill can top the leaderboards. If you want to win in this game you must grind for gear. It's that simple. You want to win GSF? Grind for gear does not matter your flying skill.

 

Yesterday we had a match end with 150-1 kill ratio. Our team had 1 kill lmao. Anybody who is going to argue that class selection/nerfs/buffs etc had anything to do with this annihilation is lying to themselves. It was the soccer game so kills were not super important but we obviously lost 4-2. I did ninja the ball and scored so I did my part.

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