Gozinya Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" - Obi Wan This has got to be one of the most broken statements... not only is it an absolute statement in and of itself but also Yoda says to Luke in return of the jedi "Do or do not, there is no try". I'm sure there are tons more, but those are two off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KahnyaGnorc Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" - Obi Wan This has got to be one of the most broken statements... not only is it an absolute statement in and of itself but also Yoda says to Luke in return of the jedi "Do or do not, there is no try". I'm sure there are tons more, but those are two off the top of my head. The whole Jedi code is full of absolutes. Every line is "There is no," which is an absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Ok excuse me for stupidity but what is everyone's beef with that line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoxTheHero Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Yet another person who takes the Jedi Code at face value... People really need to learn to read between the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacenHallis Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Yet another person who takes the Jedi Code at face value... People really need to learn to read between the lines. Can't help that the Jedi Code that is in vogue at the time of TOR is a stupid interpretation. And I can't even lay the blame for that at the feet of Odan-Urr, because I don't think he meant it to be as absolute and concrete as it is written. The original code that was drafted on Tython and used before the Great War was much better: Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force. It acknowledges the existence of five universal truths, and it then strives to overcome them. The current interpretation of Odan-Urr's text, whether it was the intention or not, denies the very existence of those universal truths. It is said that the wise man knows nothing, but always strives to learn more, and this is even affirmed in a quest in game, as I recall. Yet, the Jedi Code denies the existence of Ignorance, which is merely the lack of knowledge. Everyone is ignorant. Now, look at how Jedi in the movies and in the time period of the KOTOR games look at the Jedi Code, and then look at me with a straight face, and tell me that they're not strictly interpreting the code. You can't do it, because that's exactly what is happening. Jedi are emotionally stunted individuals, and that was never more true than with Anakin Skywalker, who never learned to deal with emotion in healthy ways; he learned only to suppress them. And those emotions boiled over and caused his downfall. He chose the path, but the Jedi never gave him the tools to find another path himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kobie- Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Ok excuse me for stupidity but what is everyone's beef with that line? "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" IS an absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zierk Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 The whole Jedi code is full of absolutes. Every line is "There is no," which is an absolute. That's kinda funny. I never thought of it like that before. Nice info =D +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" IS an absolute. I'm still not following.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kobie- Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) I'm still not following.. ... seriously? OK, Obi-Wan Kenobi says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," a statement which is an absolute. Hence, Obi-Wan Kenobi is either being highly contradictory or highly hypocritical. Or, the third and most likely option, George Lucas doesn't have a clue how to write dialogue. Edited December 24, 2011 by -kobie- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacenHallis Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I'm still not following.. "Follow me!" "Follow me!" That's good! That's good, eh? A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 ... seriously? OK, Obi-Wan Kenobi says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," a statement which is an absolute. Hence, Obi-Wan Kenobi is either being highly contradictory or highly hypocritical. Or, the third and most likely option, George Lucas doesn't have a clue how to write dialogue. I get the statement, what I don't get is what he is being contradicting about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kobie- Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I get the statement, what I don't get is what he is being contradicting about. He's being contradictory about the idea that ONLY SITH DEAL IN ABSOLUTES. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Jedi, not a Sith, and he apparently deals in absolutes too. I cannot make this any more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bielduwyn Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 This dialogue was written by George Lucas, it's not exactly worth discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshmaul Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 He's being contradictory about the idea that ONLY SITH DEAL IN ABSOLUTES. Obi-Wan Kenobi is a Jedi, not a Sith, and he apparently deals in absolutes too. I cannot make this any more clear. You're trying to have a debate with a guy who wants werewolf Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durzaka Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Forum threads like this piss me off. This was discussed to death, then discussed for another 100,000 miles. it's done. Everyone knows its a ****** line. Think for 2 seconds it makes no sense, but it sounds good for the split second it appears. The PT was terrible, it doesnt need to keep being mentioned. Reminds of Nar Shaddaa general chat last night, some ******e just kept bring up the stupid contested **** about starwars like The force isn't balanced, there needs to be dark side to balanced, blah blah blah. The only reason to mention topics like this is to spark an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) You're trying to have a debate with a guy who wants werewolf Jedi. No...if you actually read my whole thread on it, you'll see that they don't need to be playable species but rather just be NPCs because apparently every other species is. And I am so sorry that I don't look deeper meaning into some lines. Edited December 24, 2011 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venan Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 *heavy sigh* The ONLY way I can justify this line is that it was MEANT to be ironic, it was MEANT to showcase that the Jedi were blind and, thus, of course fell. Here's an order which claims that only the Sith look at things in a black and white manner, and yet the Order itself looks at everything in a black and white manner, especially matters of love. The Order was doomed to fail because of this, and Obi-Wan as one of the embodiments of this Order shows it. Read the novelization of RotS (it's infinitely better than the film). A great moment plays out while Yoda is battling Palpatine, in which he makes a revelation that the Jedi Order was doomed to fail because they were so locked into their old ways. This is why he flees; to preserve that realization and have a chance to start anew. This would ALSO explain why Original Yoda seems to teach different values to Luke than Prequel Yoda would. It's still not perfect, like the whole "Do or Do Not" thing, but it's the only thing that gives Lucas even a SMIDGEN of credit. Not that he deserves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-algebraist Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I see this debate a lot, and it makes me really quite sad. A large part of the English language is in leaving implicit information out of dialogue because its unrequited. Obi Wan and Vader's exchange on that planet was about choosing a side, morality, and righteousness. He was in NO WAY stating that 'only' the Sith deal in 'Absolutes' for everything. He was meaning that it was the Sith position, not the Jedi position that you were an ally or an enemy. That there was a 'right' way to do anything. The Sith believe that the power of the darkside is absolute and incontrovertible, but the Jedi believe in a living, changing force and that the only true power is in a balance of both. He was implying that although he could not agree with Vaders point of view, he still (barely) held some love and affection for him - which was subsequently let go when he realised how far Vader had really fallen. The statement makes perfect sense, unless read on its own as a standalone statement to the universe. And in those circumstances Obi Wan would of course never have said it. What you have done is essentially as follows: "Where are you going? "The shops." "The shops what?" "I'm going to the shops..." "Well why didn't you say?" "Uh, I did." You've completely pretended the context didn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordy Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 ... seriously? OK, Obi-Wan Kenobi says "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," a statement which is an absolute. Hence, Obi-Wan Kenobi is either being highly contradictory or highly hypocritical. Or, the third and most likely option, George Lucas doesn't have a clue how to write dialogue. This is the exact point that Lucas was making. There are no REAL good or bad guys in the Jedi/Sith war, there are just guys with differing viewpoints on the same thing and are casting each other as the "wrong" ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiddenronin Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I see this debate a lot, and it makes me really quite sad. A large part of the English language is in leaving implicit information out of dialogue because its unrequited. Obi Wan and Vader's exchange on that planet was about choosing a side, morality, and righteousness. He was in NO WAY stating that 'only' the Sith deal in 'Absolutes' for everything. He was meaning that it was the Sith position, not the Jedi position that you were an ally or an enemy. That there was a 'right' way to do anything. The Sith believe that the power of the darkside is absolute and incontrovertible, but the Jedi believe in a living, changing force and that the only true power is in a balance of both. He was implying that although he could not agree with Vaders point of view, he still (barely) held some love and affection for him - which was subsequently let go when he realised how far Vader had really fallen. The statement makes perfect sense, unless read on its own as a standalone statement to the universe. And in those circumstances Obi Wan would of course never have said it. What you have done is essentially as follows: "Where are you going? "The shops." "The shops what?" "I'm going to the shops..." "Well why didn't you say?" "Uh, I did." You've completely pretended the context didn't exist. That has to be the most eloquent way I have ever seen it explained. That's for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kobie- Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 He was in NO WAY stating that 'only' the Sith deal in 'Absolutes' for everything. Except that's exactly what he said. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That is the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Failure Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Except that's exactly what he said. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That is the line. You totally skipped the rest of what they wrote, didn't you? Best go back and educate yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BladeStrike Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Obi-Wan was just trying to confuse Anakin. It worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-kobie- Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 You totally skipped the rest of what they wrote, didn't you? Best go back and educate yourself. Oh, cram it. The rest of what he wrote is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jak-Jak Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I see this debate a lot, and it makes me really quite sad. A large part of the English language is in leaving implicit information out of dialogue because its unrequited. Obi Wan and Vader's exchange on that planet was about choosing a side, morality, and righteousness. He was in NO WAY stating that 'only' the Sith deal in 'Absolutes' for everything. He was meaning that it was the Sith position, not the Jedi position that you were an ally or an enemy. That there was a 'right' way to do anything. The Sith believe that the power of the darkside is absolute and incontrovertible, but the Jedi believe in a living, changing force and that the only true power is in a balance of both. He was implying that although he could not agree with Vaders point of view, he still (barely) held some love and affection for him - which was subsequently let go when he realised how far Vader had really fallen. The statement makes perfect sense, unless read on its own as a standalone statement to the universe. And in those circumstances Obi Wan would of course never have said it. What you have done is essentially as follows: "Where are you going? "The shops." "The shops what?" "I'm going to the shops..." "Well why didn't you say?" "Uh, I did." You've completely pretended the context didn't exist. People really have a knack for taking a single sentence out of context and making it a blanket statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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