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EC : 16M-NiM (world ranking)


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yeah it seems like 16m raiding is dying off in this game because there is no real incentive to do 16m over 8m. I wish bioware would wise up to this and make 16m more prestigous by offering better loot drops instead of more loot. Give 16m slightly better loot than the 8m and add in unique mounts and titles for 16m nightmares and I bet we would see a revival of 16m raiding groups.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, placing more focus and incentivisizing 16 man raids would dramatically lengthen the player attention span in terms of PVE in this game, but my gut feeling tells me part of the reason why this is not being done is because of the additional fps issues most below average rigs experience in 16 mans -- Heroengine kind of fails whenever you clunk up more than 10 people around in an area.

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I agree wholeheartedly, placing more focus and incentivisizing 16 man raids would dramatically lengthen the player attention span in terms of PVE in this game, but my gut feeling tells me part of the reason why this is not being done is because of the additional fps issues most below average rigs experience in 16 mans -- Heroengine kind of fails whenever you clunk up more than 10 people around in an area.

 

 

This is most definitely a very frustrating part of doing 16 man operations. As a raid leader and dps I'm able to do both of my jobs with an average of 3-5 FPS in fight. It really makes the fight difficult and makes certain mechanics difficult when mobs take a much longer time to render for me. Like I said however, it's completely doable at 4 FPS on low graphic settings. (although I would love a rework so I could stop watching a slideshow!) :(

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well my guild did 16m content until we finished HM TFB...now its just 8m time. Just easier to find 8 on at the same time that can clear something quickly. The only reason I can see now for bigger guilds and raiding is to kill dreadtooth 10 stack...but people dont even seem interested in doing that anymore.
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I havent cared to try 16 man raids to much based on the fact that the majority of the people i have come across in this game are not highly discipline as raiders, and the fact that the progression of the fights are making near perfect execution more important.

 

I can mange to do a raid with a couple of people that will most likely make a noticeable mistake 50% of the time on progression, in a 16 man raid i would most likely have 4 to 6 people that are likely to make a mistake half of the time, and hence making the raids harder then what they need to be.

 

I raid to kill ****, i dont mind dying to a hard boss, or even bad RNG (i actually welcome some degree of punishing RNG in a raid fight); I do mind dying when someone in the raid makes a repeated mistake....i usually shrug it off and continue on, but i feel that in a 16 man that it would be far to often the norm.

 

Please know i am not speaking badly about any guilds, 16m or 8m... i am speaking about the general player base of this game compared to the other MMOs that i have played in the last decade. I actually applaud the 16 man guilds that are still out there, that are willing to do the extra recruiting it takes to keep your guild alive, and the on going battle against morale that i am sure you guys/gals face.

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I havent cared to try 16 man raids to much based on the fact that the majority of the people i have come across in this game are not highly discipline as raiders, and the fact that the progression of the fights are making near perfect execution more important.

 

I can mange to do a raid with a couple of people that will most likely make a noticeable mistake 50% of the time on progression, in a 16 man raid i would most likely have 4 to 6 people that are likely to make a mistake half of the time, and hence making the raids harder then what they need to be.

 

I raid to kill ****, i dont mind dying to a hard boss, or even bad RNG (i actually welcome some degree of punishing RNG in a raid fight); I do mind dying when someone in the raid makes a repeated mistake....i usually shrug it off and continue on, but i feel that in a 16 man that it would be far to often the norm.

 

Please know i am not speaking badly about any guilds, 16m or 8m... i am speaking about the general player base of this game compared to the other MMOs that i have played in the last decade. I actually applaud the 16 man guilds that are still out there, that are willing to do the extra recruiting it takes to keep your guild alive, and the on going battle against morale that i am sure you guys/gals face.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself. I stopped caring about 16m Ops in this game long ago simply because people don't care and are generally a lot less skilled than what I am used to compared to, say, WoW raiding community. I can hardly imagine there being an MMO based on raiding that has a worse playerbase than what I've been witnessing in this game since the major exodus around patch 1.2.

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I couldn't have said it better myself. I stopped caring about 16m Ops in this game long ago simply because people don't care and are generally a lot less skilled than what I am used to compared to, say, WoW raiding community. I can hardly imagine there being an MMO based on raiding that has a worse playerbase than what I've been witnessing in this game since the major exodus around patch 1.2.

 

Totally agree... I remember my youth on Wow with 40m Ops and can't even imagine it on SWTOR.

8m seems a joke in relation to 16m, not only by the difference between of difficulty... but clearly because it's hard to fight 16 men really good on just doing their jobs!

I really think that's now impossible to make a 25m or 40m Ops on this game like it was in Wow Vanilla... good old time :(

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Totally agree... I remember my youth on Wow with 40m Ops and can't even imagine it on SWTOR.

8m seems a joke in relation to 16m, not only by the difference between of difficulty... but clearly because it's hard to fight 16 men really good on just doing their jobs!

I really think that's now impossible to make a 25m or 40m Ops on this game like it was in Wow Vanilla... good old time :(

 

and you didn't even mention the crap engine that would probably cause more problems with 20+ members than getting all those players together.

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First off, your DPS is mad insanity. I've *never* seen a bomber die that fast on Nightmare Mode (8m or 16m). Very impressive. Your healers are also top-notch. It's extremely hard to tank heal against Kephess when he drops down, and you were doing it a healer short. Very, very well done.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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gratz all on your kills ... by both ranking systems this actually puts FF ahead of Ace despite the timing ;p

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgCWcFAbOaZwdHNYaTU0NnN1RXJ6dnBWc2NyeW1fQ3c#gid=0

 

Erm, by what logic is Ace now third? They killed Kephess 16m before nerf, even. Gratz to all, of course, but what's weird is just weird. Whoever made this ranking system needs to, well, revise it, or don't even bother with it, it's ridiculous.

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Erm, by what logic is Ace now third? They killed Kephess 16m before nerf, even. Gratz to all, of course, but what's weird is just weird. Whoever made this ranking system needs to, well, revise it, or don't even bother with it, it's ridiculous.

 

I think it is pretty obvious, but I will indulge you. The rankings are both based on overall effort, that is, how quickly you killed ALL the bosses. Ace did not kill the first 3 bosses quick enough in the rankings for the OVERALL ranking. Pretty simple ... but in any case it is just a mathematical calculation. If you want to judge the rankings purely by the kephess kill you are perfectly entitled to. These ranking systems were both determined prior to the release of this round of content, it would not make sense to now adjust them just to satisfy a specific scenario.

 

Hopefully that answers your question.

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First off, your DPS is mad insanity. I've *never* seen a bomber die that fast on Nightmare Mode (8m or 16m). Very impressive. Your healers are also top-notch. It's extremely hard to tank heal against Kephess when he drops down, and you were doing it a healer short. Very, very well done.

 

We appreciate the compliments, it certainly took many attempts to get the dps focused in the right spots and the heals setup optimally. One thing about this attempt that isn't super obvious is that I (the tank that is normally tanking kephess), get the bomber debuff, essentially putting all 3 tanks into heal or die situations. I definitely credit our healers for doing what they could on the fly, even if 1 tank did die in the end.

 

Grats FF on your kill, let's see your wipe video! ;)

Edited by tahoeWolverine
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I think it is pretty obvious, but I will indulge you. The rankings are both based on overall effort, that is, how quickly you killed ALL the bosses. Ace did not kill the first 3 bosses quick enough in the rankings for the OVERALL ranking. Pretty simple ... but in any case it is just a mathematical calculation. If you want to judge the rankings purely by the kephess kill you are perfectly entitled to. These ranking systems were both determined prior to the release of this round of content, it would not make sense to now adjust them just to satisfy a specific scenario.

 

Hopefully that answers your question.

 

Given the dynamic changes of content (such as the simple fact that increasing the enrage timer on Kephess substantially lowers the overall difficulty) and the fact that Kephess is the most difficult encounter on NiM by far (equating that fight to Vorgath is nonsensical in itself) this static mathematical calculation makes this ranking system nothing but pointless pastime. Raiding does not take place in a mathematical vacuum, especially in the inexperienced realm of SWTOR.

 

Whichever guild killed Kephess on 16m first is the best, that's the only ranking that should be obvious to anyone whose logic is not limited to static calculations at the level of primary school.

Edited by Krewel
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. . .Raiding does not take place in a mathematical vacuum. . .

 

Actually, I'm pretty sure it does.

 

Regardless, your argument isn't very sound. I can agree with parts of it, like a static weight system doesn't work very well, but the first guild to kill the last boss is not necessarily the best.

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Actually, I'm pretty sure it does.

 

Regardless, your argument isn't very sound. I can agree with parts of it, like a static weight system doesn't work very well, but the first guild to kill the last boss is not necessarily the best.

 

Okay, what about the first guild that kills the boss pre-nerf? You do realize there is a huge difference between Kephess having 4:30 mins enrage timer and the one having 6:00 mins, right?

 

Being first to get to the finish line ... yeah, that's not a sound argument for world first at all :rolleyes:

 

I'd also like to hear the explanation how raiding takes place in a mathematical vacuum. Because all we need are spreadsheets and (ro)bots to down bosses, not human beings at all, right?

Edited by Krewel
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Just to chime in on the dispute that's taken place...

 

Kephess' pre-"nerf" enrage timer was 4:00 not 4:30 if I am correct, which is what made Ace's kill so impressive. I know that our kill was ~4:30 on kephess and it seemed slow even, though our overall kill was much faster, which brings me to my next point: any end game fight were the mechanics allow you to take a break in the middle of the encounter in order for cooldowns to come back up should not be considered complete or held in a competitive regard, despite how difficult the rest of the fight is. That coupled with the difference in 8m vs. 16m amount of kills is proof that the fight was not tuned very well for live (something that I think we all hope will be fixed in future content patches!). In addition, by your logic, Kephess would have been the only fight that mattered, which means that guilds could have cleared up to him on hard mode week after week and focused all of their raiding time solely on kephess instead of taking the time to clear the previous fights on nightmare, however difficult they may have been.

 

That being said, as someone previously mentioned, none of this is "official" and is simply there to promote competitiveness in a friendly manner among the community. Everyone is welcome to judge the ranking of guilds by their own rules, but you must understand that coming into a thread where someone has taken the time to clearly define the agreed upon rules and track guilds' progress in a fair way, and say that you disagree with the rules AFTER a guild has completed all of the bosses and been ranked "lower" according to the rules of tracking, is only going to make you out to be bitter. I might suggest starting your own tracking thread or trying to promote changes to the rules in a constructive way, rather than bash an already established system.

Edited by Rupert
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I agree that title runs should be including in the tracking, since that's the final, overall achievement one can attain as a guild. Not only can you kill all the bosses (including the last one which is considered much harder), but you can do it in a clean, timely run. There would have to be policies to enforce verification of the screenshots though, since the titles can be achieved through multiple 8 man runs..
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