OPs arguments are really nothing more than idiosyncratic gripes with free market philosophy. There is nothing normative in the OPs concerns (e.g. there is no normative basis for concluding what a sub should include, how much it should cost, etc.). Seeing as the complaints are entirely personal and unique, it's hard to place his arguments into any broader debate context.

 

Take an automobile. One buys a new car in 2019, certain this are expected: it starts, it drives, it's powered by an energy source that's obtainable, it has airbags, it meets government standards, etc.. The the sound system, sports package, sunroof, navigation, etc. are all optional. And even the price itself depends on the class, market, supply/demand, etc. If dealers charged for airbags (they do, but of course that's baked in already which is another problem with OP's arguments) or for a steering wheel, or the ignition, then there would be an issue.

 

The OPs argument goes along the lines of when I buy a car, I expect all luxury, non-essential items to be included at no additional charge. OP rejects the idea that a dealer might "entice" a customer to upgrade the sound system by including a functional, but uninspiring, system in the base model, and charging a premium for the higher quality version. This is a fine position to have, but it's not one that merits any debate. It's too idiosyncratic, and it fails to account for a number of additional factors (e.g. how some customers may be content with the base model and be unwilling to pay even a dime more for an upgrade, costs of goods sold, etc.)....

As you pointed out earlier, progression gates are arbitrary numbers. Expecting optimal tuning to come with our 'Premium' purchase isn't asking for a free expense. It's merely advocating for an unsabotaged experience, that doesn't rent us a solution to an artificial problem.

I just don't see why they have to scrap CXP. I get that they're trying to slim down a few things and remove currencies to cut down on their current bloat of currencies. (Alliance Recon Data as an example.) Still, I can't see myself being arsed to care about Renown. With CXP, there is some sense of progression along with a small prize per level. This works for people like me who do not have the time to play/grind all day. Yes, my highest character is in the mid-100s but I wasn't really trying to get to 300 as fast as I can.

 

Renown......Having something that will regularly reset back to 0 kills any motivation that I have to care. This is good for me as it means that I will only ever touch the Rakghoul event 4 more times and the Gree once more. Helping me cut down on my faffing about isn't a bad thing for me. However, I don't see how it helps those events when I won't even have the smallest motivator to swing by and see if anybody needs help with heroics. (Yes, I'm full up on rep.)

 

I feel like they should just leave CXP there alongside the Renown system but it is what it is. I can't really get too worked up over the demise of the CXP system anymore than I got worked up over the demise of the crystal currency. All it means is that I'm trying to burn my boosts and command tokens before end of August as well as my UCs.

They are not really scrapping cxp though, just rebranding it to renown to get away from the very negative connotation that command xp has gotten for a lot of players even though it is not entirely justified anymore. Therefore keeping cxp alongside renown xp would not be possible.

Mechanically speaking renown xp is supposed to work pretty similar to cxp as a max level supplementary progression system. The major difference is that the crates on level up are factoring in your item rating making tier ranks obsolete and they will reset for seasonal rewards.

That's also the reason why you dont have to burn through your boosts before the expansion, because they already confirmed that the cxp boosts will work just the same for renown xp. The things that go away will be command tokens and cxp packs from fps, ops, etc.

They are not really scrapping cxp though, just rebranding it to renown to get away from the very negative connotation that command xp has gotten for a lot of players even though it is not entirely justified anymore. Therefore keeping cxp alongside renown xp would not be possible.

They really should have ditched the entire CXP system and started over. Funny that they ditched something relatively straightforward (that they couldn't monetize ) like crystals, but are clinging to a system that involves lootboxes and store boosters. I tolerate it because I continue to like this game enough as a distraction for now, but it's always been a terrible system and their clinging to it on the side shows where their real priorities are at... nickle and diming over fun, always. And more specifically, conditioning people to open "packs" on a regular basis and see it as normal.

Like I said, I tolerate it for now because I continue to like this game in other ways, but damn, does it feel like a mobile game sometimes. And that is NOT a good connotation.

They really should have ditched the entire CXP system and started over. Funny that they ditched something relatively straightforward (that they couldn't monetize ) like crystals, but are clinging to a system that involves lootboxes and store boosters. I tolerate it because I continue to like this game enough as a distraction for now, but it's always been a terrible system and their clinging to it on the side shows where their real priorities are at... nickle and diming over fun, always. And more specifically, conditioning people to open "packs" on a regular basis and see it as normal.

 

Like I said, I tolerate it for now because I continue to like this game in other ways, but damn, does it feel like a mobile game sometimes. And that is NOT a good connotation.

well, I would be inclined to agree if command xp or even more so the new renown xp were the only (viable) way to acquire endgame gear through their crate drops. They stressed it several times during the live stream that renown xp will be a purely supplementary means of progression and if you want specific items or gear you can go several other routes (group content drops, conquest rewards, crafting, renown vendor). I reserve final judgement for when I can actually test and see how these components interact with each other. If they really pull it off, renown xp can be quite good and make endgame progression fun again.

I agree with you OP and got a good chuckle out of watching the sheep in this thread fighting hard to stay fleeced.

oh my, aren't you the big bad wolf.

well, I would be inclined to agree if command xp or even more so the new renown xp were the only (viable) way to acquire endgame gear through their crate drops. They stressed it several times during the live stream that renown xp will be a purely supplementary means of progression and if you want specific items or gear you can go several other routes (group content drops, conquest rewards, crafting, renown vendor). I reserve final judgement for when I can actually test and see how these components interact with each other. If they really pull it off, renown xp can be quite good and make endgame progression fun again.

Oh, I get that it's going to be supplemental. But if it becomes truly supplementary and nothing more as they claim, it is arguably pointless to keep around at that point. After all the things they've ditched without a second thought over the years, how strange they would decide to keep something when it involves monetization and lootbox normalization. The motives seem pretty obvious here. They want to have their cake and eat it too; keep people playing with a gear system they don't hate, while also doing their mobile game style stuff on the side. CXP's original implementation taught them there are limits to how far and quickly they can push the mobile game lootbox style dross into an MMORPG.

They never actually went back on it entirely and from what we know so far, still aren't. It's the old "go so far and obnoxiously upfront that when you pull back on it, it seems like you did people a favor." Clearly they underestimated what people were willing to put up with upfront though. CXP was a disaster in the beginning and was made moderately tolerable aftewards.

Horizontal progress systems can be fun and SWTOR is certainly not the first to do them. But they are probably the first in MMORPGs marrying it so brazenly to monetization and lootbox mechanics. So dishonest they were in their implementation of it that they claimed boosters for CXP would never be on the store and then not long after, they were. I remember it vividly because it was the breaking point for me leaving, back when it was originally implemented.

Oh, I get that it's going to be supplemental. But if it becomes truly supplementary and nothing more as they claim, it is arguably pointless to keep around at that point. After all the things they've ditched without a second thought over the years, how strange they would decide to keep something when it involves monetization and lootbox normalization. The motives seem pretty obvious here. They want to have their cake and eat it too; keep people playing with a gear system they don't hate, while also doing their mobile game style stuff on the side. CXP's original implementation taught them there are limits to how far and quickly they can push the mobile game lootbox style dross into an MMORPG.

 

They never actually went back on it entirely and from what we know so far, still aren't. It's the old "go so far and obnoxiously upfront that when you pull back on it, it seems like you did people a favor." Clearly they underestimated what people were willing to put up with upfront though. CXP was a disaster in the beginning and was made moderately tolerable aftewards.

 

Horizontal progress systems can be fun and SWTOR is certainly not the first to do them. But they are probably the first in MMORPGs marrying it so brazenly to monetization and lootbox mechanics. So dishonest they were in their implementation of it that they claimed boosters for CXP would never be on the store and then not long after, they were. I remember it vividly because it was the breaking point for me leaving, back when it was originally implemented.

I totally get that you don't like that loot box style system at all and I think you are correct in your assessment that the idea behind command and renown xp was/is a capitalistic approach to progression to incentivize the need for "surprise mechanics", as EA famously called them recently. The monetization targets the most casual of players who only play once in a while, don't want to do group content but still want the best (looking) items in the game.

Still, seeing my cargo holds and command stashes crammed with boosts and tokens by playing the game, I think the op's claim that SWTOR is P2W and that you have to shell out further money besides the sub cost to earn gear is not true. If that was the case, you would have to call all MMOs out there with a virtual market economy P2W.

I see the op's point of view as a moralizing critique of raging capitalism in the video game market.

As you pointed out earlier, progression gates are arbitrary numbers. Expecting optimal tuning to come with our 'Premium' purchase isn't asking for a free expense. It's merely advocating for an unsabotaged experience, that doesn't rent us a solution to an artificial problem.

"Artificial problems" don't require solutions at all. That's what some of us have been saying since the inception of the thread, glad you finally realized it.

I agree with you OP and got a good chuckle out of watching the sheep in this thread fighting hard to stay fleeced.

Yes, discussing a system that costs us 0 dollars to play means we're being fleeced?

Wait, that's not exactly right, is it. We have to maintain our subs to take full advantage of it, sort of like it's been since F2P launched, so nothing's really changing on that front, is it...

 

That's also the reason why you dont have to burn through your boosts before the expansion, because they already confirmed that the cxp boosts will work just the same for renown xp. The things that go away will be command tokens and cxp packs from fps, ops, etc.

I was given to understand from a few months ago that the CXP boosts are also going away along with the command tokens/UC. Do you have a link for them stating that the CXP boosts/consumables aren't going away?

The OP subscribed for a single reason. To post this thread.

That's just.... really interesting.

I was given to understand from a few months ago that the CXP boosts are also going away along with the command tokens/UC. Do you have a link for them stating that the CXP boosts/consumables aren't going away?

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9735255#edit9735255

The consumables are going away (the CXP packs that give X amount of CXP). The boosts are staying (the ones that give x% to CXP gained).

"Artificial problems" don't require solutions at all. That's what some of us have been saying since the inception of the thread, glad you finally realized it.

Dictionary.com:

Artificial:

5. Made without regard to the particular needs of a situation, person, etc.; imposed arbitrarily; unnatural

Dictionary.com:

 

Artificial:

5. Made without regard to the particular needs of a situation, person, etc.; imposed arbitrarily; unnatural

This is exactly what you've been doing since the inception of the thread, that was my point, and I'm glad to see you got it, eventually.

The fact that you thought this to be enough of an issue that you dropped cash on the 2nd subscription lets us know you really care.

Unfortunately, you seem to be in the minority on the issue.

The fact that you thought this to be enough of an issue that you dropped cash on the 2nd subscription lets us know you really care.

 

Unfortunately, you seem to be in the minority on the issue.

I am just curious why people keep commenting on this and giving the OP the spotlight he obviously craves. And yes, I understand the irony of posting just to say that.). The horse is dead, let it feed the dogs.

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9735255#edit9735255

 

The consumables are going away (the CXP packs that give X amount of CXP). The boosts are staying (the ones that give x% to CXP gained).

Thank you So I still do have to burn my packs before September. Good to know.

I'm kinda wondering what they're going to do about Ossus gear. As it was based off Masterwork crystals, do they just change them to be able to be bought for credits or is everything going to need the Ossus recon data or are they just getting rid of them?

Alright, a lot has happened since I was last here, so I’ll summarize for those who haven’t been following the plot.

At the end, I’ll touch on the ESA’s announcement about disclosing odds on gambling products, since that also touches monetized gearing in SWTOR.

What’s the problem?

New end-game gear (Amps) will provide peak performance. The devs have called it 'optional' and 'not necessary,' while simultaneously downplaying the importance of a gearing system they're aggressively re-monetizing (Command/Renown drops).

In 6.0 XP and CXP are earned concurrently, but boosted separately. We’ll need two simultaneous, compounding, monetized consumables to un-nerf progression and gearing, on top of the $155.88 we pay year over year, for a 'Premium' experience.

Renown drops will probably be the primary feeder for rare Amps and Tacticals. To head off criticism, the corporate talking points are pretty clear: highly-monetized end-game gear is framed as optional, not-necessary stuff from a secondary system.

Amps and Tacticals will be available through other gameplay, but double-boosted Renown drops need only be efficient to create a pay-to-win problem.

What’re the details?

CXP will be calculated as a percentage of XP. At max level, you’ll no longer get XP, but it’s still the basis of you CXP calculation, so the monetized consumable never becomes obsolete.

The resulting value can then be compounded by a CXP consumable, to fully un-nerf your gearing.

There’s no reason to maintain these as separate totals, except to monetize them individually.

How much does paying to win cost? What do you get?

I’m glad you asked! I’ll happily provide detailed figures upon request.

P2W/Hour Case 1 (Low-Efficiency Purchases): $1.91/hour

P2W/Hour Case 2 (High-Efficiency Purchases): $0.68/hour

This means less than seven hours of paying to win could double the monthly cost of SWTOR for a subscriber, while delivering 2.5X Renown gear drops.

You just want free stuff!

Progression gates are arbitrary numbers. Expecting optimal tuning to come with our 'Premium' purchase isn't asking for a free expense. It's merely advocating for an unsabotaged experience, that doesn't rent us a solution to an artificially imposed problem.

But they give us a ton of XP boosts!

Yes, the core story drops a finite number of XP boosts. This kept subscribers from feeling abused during the ‘F2P’ transition, which introduced monetized consumables.

Their usefulness had a sunset at max level, and they gave us enough to get there. Now, XP boosts are permanently required to un-nerf gearing, alongside CXP boosts. Those XP boosts are character-bound. If you have them, you’ll run out. By design.

You can’t direct-purchase stat-based gear! It’s not P2W!

Oh boy. Microtransactions feed stat-based gearing. Suggesting that obscurant game mechanics make it ok is no different than any other claim that money laundering legitimizes an illicit practice. It doesn't.

Also, crystals are stat-bearing direct purchases. They’ve long-since dipped a toe in that pool.

Then your subscription is P2W! Hypocrite!

No. Nothing is free, and I expect to pay for a quality game.

The demo ('F2P') version is crippled to incentivize subscriptions, and that's fine. What I have a problem with is monetizing in-game advantages on top of a monetized 'Premium' experience.

Cash shop items, including CXP boosts, can be acquired in-game, without spending a dime!

Secondary grinds for anything cash-purchasable aren't game design. They're burdens to incentivize financial transactions, for items that shouldn't be withheld from a subscriber to begin with. And no, the subscriber CC ration isn't meaningful.

Why does this matter?

This is about ethics. Purchasing in-game advantages is the very essence of pay-to-win.

Watch the documentary Leaving Neverland; it's an amazing parable about excusing the crossing of bright lines. Microtransactions that feed gearing are one such line. We’re being groomed, and when the lights go out, we'll be getting FIFA'd.

Whether it's a disturbed celebrity, or EA/BioWare, the moral obligation is for powerful people not to solicit inappropriate things from others.

What FIFA's doing is way different!

It's a matter of degree, not principle. SWTOR has both of FIFA's worst ethics problems:

1. Gambling Products

2. Pay-to-Win Consumables

What's new?

The Entertainment Software Association has announced their members (EA/BioWare) will disclose odds on their gambling products. This may require its own thread, but here're a few thoughts:

The transparency provided to direct-purchase gambling products (say, Hypercrates) is pretty straight forward.

What's not been clearly addressed are money laundered gambling products (for instance, a randomized drop fed by a purchased boost, like Renown Crates), or how they'll handle variable drop rates.

If they're ethical, they'll list the lowest possible probability for each item, and include tables for money laundered purchases, too.

Alright, too.

TL:DR CXP boosts are P2W

We are facing the levels of trolling that should not be possible.

Since when items that you can get ( in amounts so large that you will never spend em - it's important!) by just playing the game are P2W?*

Yes i didn't read the whole thread but i actually doubt it's worth the time.

* And by playing the game i mean actually playing, not sitting 2 hours doing nothing waiting for WZ to pop and not being walking fleet decoration i.e hardcore ERPer.

We are facing the levels of trolling that should not be possible.

Since when items that you can get ( in amounts so large that you will never spend em - it's important!) by just playing the game are P2W?*

 

Yes i didn't read the whole thread but i actually doubt it's worth the time.

 

* And by playing the game i mean actually playing, not sitting 2 hours doing nothing waiting for WZ to pop and not being walking fleet decoration i.e hardcore ERPer.

You only need to read my previous post to have your question answered.

You only need to read my previous post to have your question answered.

Except that, again, you're wrong, and you're wrong on levels that mean you're intentionally posting misinformation.

P2W: Items required for end game can only be obtained from the Cash Shop of the specific game, or by purchasing them from players that did so.

Where in any of the information that we have does this condition exist? Again; I am not changing the accepted definition to fit your "but everything should be free since I pay a sub" narrative. It's weak, and your justifications are also weak. Any time you have to change the definition of words or terms to fit your narrative, there's something wrong with your narrative. The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year. XP boosts are routinely given away through the game, for free, for simply playing the game, so their availability on the CS is pointless.

28 toons on one server, and all of them have stacks of bound xp boosts, meaning that they were rewarded for playing the game, not from CS purchases which are bound for a couple of days, and can then be sold on the GTN, if one desires to do so, or simply transferred to a different toon on one's legacy. What's even funnier, from my perspective, is that you can get these w/out even carrying a sub, so you don't have to pay anything at all to get them. So much for P2W, at least in so far as this is concerned.

Except that, again, you're wrong, and you're wrong on levels that mean you're intentionally posting misinformation.

 

P2W: Items required for end game can only be obtained from the Cash Shop of the specific game, or by purchasing them from players that did so.

 

Where in any of the information that we have does this condition exist? Again; I am not changing the accepted definition to fit your "but everything should be free since I pay a sub" narrative. It's weak, and your justifications are also weak. Any time you have to change the definition of words or terms to fit your narrative, there's something wrong with your narrative. The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year. XP boosts are routinely given away through the game, for free, for simply playing the game, so their availability on the CS is pointless.

 

28 toons on one server, and all of them have stacks of bound xp boosts, meaning that they were rewarded for playing the game, not from CS purchases which are bound for a couple of days, and can then be sold on the GTN, if one desires to do so, or simply transferred to a different toon on one's legacy. What's even funnier, from my perspective, is that you can get these w/out even carrying a sub, so you don't have to pay anything at all to get them. So much for P2W, at least in so far as this is concerned.

Dude why did you bring this back to the first page? Just let it die and go back to the 2nd or 3rd page. All you are doing is giving him the exposure he wants. Let it go. Honestly, it is time the mods do their freaking jobs and either lock this thread, or put it into the suggestions folder or off topic. I know this is the last time I am responding to it, help us out here.l

The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year.

I think this is the important distinction. FlatTax is correct that a person who stacks both Experience Point boosts and Renown boosts will earn renown crates faster than someone who does not utilize both, or consumes all their free Experience boosts.

Where FlatTax is not correct is in the presumption that a player earning renown crates will gear faster. That is entirely random, and since we don't know the extent of all the sources of amplifiers yet, we really can't conclude that renown crates will be the fastest or even a decently efficient way to acquire these. Whatever the "Charles Points" or "Chux Bux" are going to be will factor in heavily.

RNG-protection, as it has been presented in the live streams, seems to apply to gear, and not amplifiers.

We also know that the CXP boosts you purchase now with command tokens are as effective in magnitude, if not duration, as the Market ones. I doubt that Renown point boosts bought via in game currency are going away, even if the Command Tokens are. I haven't needed a Market CXP boost in well over a year, I could probably buy at least 30 if not 40 boosts right now with all the Command Tokens I have saved up, which should last me well into 6.0.

All that being said, I think FlatTax's argument that "progression is double monetized" is a sensational headline, but not completely without merit. We don't know exactly how much the ratio of Renown XP to Experience Points will be, which of course could lessen the impact of an XP boost (if you only get one renown point for every 1000 xp, for example, then a 15% xp boost won't matter except for big mission turn-ins.) It's something to consider, sure, but its not the clear pay-to-win outcome that FlatTax is claiming.

Except that, again, you're wrong, and you're wrong on levels that mean you're intentionally posting misinformation.

 

P2W: Items required for end game can only be obtained from the Cash Shop of the specific game, or by purchasing them from players that did so.

 

Where in any of the information that we have does this condition exist? Again; I am not changing the accepted definition to fit your "but everything should be free since I pay a sub" narrative. It's weak, and your justifications are also weak. Any time you have to change the definition of words or terms to fit your narrative, there's something wrong with your narrative. The "loot boxes" in question here cannot be directly purchased from the CS, no matter how many times you claim they can be, directly, or indirectly. They cannot be purchased from the CS no matter how many times you post what you pay for a sub every year. XP boosts are routinely given away through the game, for free, for simply playing the game, so their availability on the CS is pointless.

 

28 toons on one server, and all of them have stacks of bound xp boosts, meaning that they were rewarded for playing the game, not from CS purchases which are bound for a couple of days, and can then be sold on the GTN, if one desires to do so, or simply transferred to a different toon on one's legacy. What's even funnier, from my perspective, is that you can get these w/out even carrying a sub, so you don't have to pay anything at all to get them. So much for P2W, at least in so far as this is concerned.

I'm defining pay-to-win correctly.

Monetized 'boosts' that feed loot drops absolutely equate to purchasing gear via gambling products.

Dude why did you bring this back to the first page? Just let it die and go back to the 2nd or 3rd page. All you are doing is giving him the exposure he wants. Let it go. Honestly, it is time the mods do their freaking jobs and either lock this thread, or put it into the suggestions folder or off topic. I know this is the last time I am responding to it, help us out here.l

Because I really want anyone researching this for court cases to see how ridiculous players can get with their P2W claims. This thread, for example, exists because the OP believes w/out question that everything the game comes out with, ever, should be free because the OP pays a sub. This is a similar argument to "I bought the game, so everything you make, ever, should be free".

Ironically enough, a lot of stuff is free, if you had an active sub when it released, such as KotFE/ET. All of those chapters were free if your sub was active when they released, or, even, if you pay a month of sub now, you can get all of it, barring one story. In DDO, they have similar content that is released free to VIPs, which is their sub model, but if you didn't purchase it directly, and allow your sub to lapse, you no longer have access to that content, unless you get a guest pass from someone who does, buy it, or reactivate your sub.

So while we can, in fact, point at the "greedy game companies being greedy", sometimes, it's not the game company that's at fault, but greedy players looking for a handout, such as this thread. Make no mistake, the whole premise here is "I pay a sub, and so I shouldn't have to buy anything else", peppered with some ***** envy that someone might get something a tad bit faster. Note, that's faster, not the typical P2W scenario of not at all w/out buying it directly from the CS or from someone who did.