I was simply wondering how many guilds run multiple ranked teams or are able to fill a second competitive ranked team? The reason I wanted to ask and get some feedback from different servers because when I think of ranked WZs, I think of guilds with static players for a set 8 man and that seems to be all.

 

I'm also not talking about guilds running multiple teams, picking up random PUGs to fill spots, to farm comms and que dodge other teams. I am just curious of how many guilds, who do run ranked, have more than one competitive team or is it always only one team per guild and subbing people in and out here and there based on who all is in the que for the night.

 

I'll be honest, I haven't been a part of a whole lot of RWZ games and I'm not even in a guild. I'm just an outsider posting a question to see some responses and ideas from various guildies on what makes the RWZ scene work and/or not work.

 

From what I've seen, there seems to be one or two dominate guilds per server and a few that will compete with them from time to time but after a few losses and people realize these teams are in the que, they stop and RWZs pops get scarce due to lack of a variety of other teams.

 

EDIT: I'm not one to normally start a thread but I have been wondering about this for a few weeks and figured I'd ask. Thanks.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Master_Nate

Few guilds run more than one team from what I know... I've seen a few do it and we've done it from time to time but normally the objective is to have your best 8 on at once. The few times we've run more than one team it's only lasted as long as the weaker team getting frustrated or another guild q'ing which puts us in the position to run our A team.

 

We often use fillers when we don't have our full team on just to get some guys some rated experience or just because we want to queue and don't have our top 8. And sometimes just because we know it's a weaker guild q'ing and we can get some guys experience and still pull out some wins.

 

As hard as it is to find talent in this game it's even more difficult to find 16 people online, at the same time, of proper composition.

 

Recently we had a big guild merge with another strong guild and it didn't last long. The other problem that pops up with larger guilds is that 2 teams don't get to queue enough and other players get left behind. They get frustrated and find somewhere that they can be more of use.

 

On top of all that... the key to a strong rated guild is chemistry. And it's not always just indivual skill that makes these guilds the best, but the teamwork and coordination that comes with playing with the same 8 people all the time to the point of knowing what a team mate will do before they do it. We've outperformed the top guild on our server a number of times with individual stats (DPS, Heals, Protection, etc) but still lost to coordination of CC and just over all better focus and team work.

Edited January 29, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

Thanks for the speedy reply Happy to see you post here.

 

My main reason for asking was to see some guilds opinions on multiple teams in general. Everything you said is understandable and makes absolute perfect sense. Of course when it comes to RWZ, you would always want your "A" team together. I like the part where you bring in some to get a feel for the RWZ games and to get them experience and this was kind of where I was going with my question.

 

I see a lot of good players that aren't in top guilds. They may not Q for RWZ for multiple reasons but one main one it seems as if the top teams do not have any availability for them. While that part is understandable, it seems as if some serious PvP guilds would still want to work with these individuals in case one of their core members leave game, PC breaks, etc.

 

I also see some great players in random guilds that will never step foot into RWZ because they don't have people to work with as their guild may be PvE oriented or small in numbers or not competitive, who knows?

 

When I browse the forums, a big complaint I see is there are not enough RWZ teams ever. This is why I asked the question the way I did. It seems to me that there could/would be more teams Q'n if there were guilds who worked with more than their "A" team. While that is time consuming on those who have limited game play available to them, I just thought it would better improve the RWZ scene for most of the ones who want more competition. Notice I didn't say better competition...the inexperienced players would have tons to learning still in regards to fighting those "A" teams you speak of.

 

I guess the answer would be these guilds are exclusive and have no room for much error or working with others to better their game to improve the overall experience in RWZ. It seems to me that by working with those in general who do show signs of being competent, if they are out there , then there would be more teams going at it and what not.

 

Also getting left behind would have to be one of those things that people would have to understand/deal with. If these guilds had more players they could fill a second team and they wouldn't be left behind. But you are right, having 16 players on, that are PvP oriented and fill certain roles seems unimaginable lol.

 

I'm in agreement too and this post is in no way fishing for "A" teams to split up and what not. I enjoy seeing the competitions go and prefer the "A" teams to stick together too.

 

Again, thanks for your response Ugly. It's been awhile!

Edited January 29, 2013 by Master_Nate

Mos def Nate!

 

And just to add to your last comment rated is another beast entirely on top of it all.

 

There are plenty of players out there who are capable of putting up big numbers and doing quite well in regs that make huge mistakes in rated and can potentially cost their team a game. Over extending, not properly defending the sap cap, and communication as well. Some of these players aren't verbal enough or simply refuse to use a VOIP and communication is huge in rated. In a game where everything is being called out, focus, pulls, CC, guard, taunts, etc... it becomes far more than being able to heal or DPS.

 

Which is why I TRY to avoid them when I'm drinking... I tunnel and don't communicate like I should and it gets me killed.

 

And just to add to your last comment rated is another beast entirely on top of it all.

 

There are plenty of players out there who are capable of putting up big numbers and doing quite well in regs that make huge mistakes in rated and can potentially cost their team a game. Over extending, not properly defending the sap cap, and communication as well. Some of these players aren't verbal enough or simply refuse to use a VOIP and communication is huge in rated. In a game where everything is being called out, focus, pulls, CC, guard, taunts, etc... it becomes far more than being able to heal or DPS.

 

Total agreement. Heck, I'm always looking for new insightful ideas and opinions from top players and teams to better my game and I think others should too if they want to move into ranked.

 

Also, not using VOIP = weak!

 

P.S. Still haven't seen you stream since you did a TFB run forever ago...what's that about lol?

Edited January 29, 2013 by Master_Nate

What we do in our guild is a little different. We have an A team that forms up and goes against other guilds - but if no other guilds can bring their A team we'll group everyone (in guild and out) into a big ops group and pick teams - that way we get the fun of competitive ranked matches with all skilled players. Usually it ends up that players from 3 or 4 guilds end up being involved, so it also helps that we're a pretty tight knit community.

 

The most thrilling, fun games are always going to be A team versus A team, but the "kickball" style ranked matches, as they're called on our server, are way more fun than regular warzones.

 

I guess it helps that player ranking is worthless in its current state. We're more excited about the PTS opening up and getting some matches against the other top guilds/servers that will be going over there.

 

The most thrilling, fun games are always going to be A team versus A team, but the "kickball" style ranked matches, as they're called on our server, are way more fun than regular warzones.

 

Most definitely and this is what RWZ should be like too.

 

I guess it helps that player ranking is worthless in its current state. We're more excited about the PTS opening up and getting some matches against the other top guilds/servers that will be going over there.

 

This is exciting news too. I think RWZ games are worth working towards with others to get into and that's why I was wondering about rules and regulations from guilds who do run them and how to better promote people to get involved.

 

 

What we do in our guild is a little different. We have an A team that forms up and goes against other guilds - but if no other guilds can bring their A team we'll group everyone (in guild and out) into a big ops group and pick teams - that way we get the fun of competitive ranked matches with all skilled players. Usually it ends up that players from 3 or 4 guilds end up being involved, so it also helps that we're a pretty tight knit community.

 

Just curious about what server you do this on? I saw some streams last night of a particular guild doing something similar. They Q'd up and didn't get any pops. They then opted to work on getting some others involved to get games going and promoting a RWZ scene. I won't say it seemed super competitive from viewing it but it did seem like a good idea to get others more willing to even TRY RWZ out rather than never knowing what it was like. After all, this is still "pre-season".

 

Again, "A" team vs "A" team will always be the best fight and at the end of pre-season and into Season One, if that happens, this is the ideal way. I, for one, just think there would be more competition out there, even if weak at first but with potential to get better.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Master_Nate

P.S. Still haven't seen you stream since you did a TFB run forever ago...what's that about lol?

 

LOL... my Xsplit started acting up and honestly I haven't even tried it since. That must have been a long time ago... I can't even remember the last time I ran an operation.

 

And like Fuzz said... kickball matches can be dope too. When a couple guilds don't have good comp they pick teams like middle school kickball games made up from each guild and go at it. Usually a lot of fun.

LOL... my Xsplit started acting up and honestly I haven't even tried it since. That must have been a long time ago... I can't even remember the last time I ran an operation.

My network isn't the best to play, listen to music, and stream but I have heard some good things about OBS as of late. You should check it out and see if you can get it working.

 

Ya, I don't know why you were doing one but you were and when I think back to it it makes me cause that doesn't seem like you.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Master_Nate

My network isn't the best to play, listen to music, and stream but I have heard some good things about OBS as of late. You should check it out and see if you can get it working.

 

Ya, I don't know why you were doing one but you were and when I think back to it it makes me cause that doesn't seem like you.

 

LOL... our guild used to run them once a week and I'd get talked into it every time.... whining and complaining the entire way hoping that I'd annoy them enough that they'd replace me... and then me and Palm took over the guild and made it PvP only.

 

Solved that problem.

Most definitely and this is what RWZ should be like too.

 

Just curious about what server you do this on? I saw some streams last night of a particular guild doing something similar. They Q'd up and didn't get any pops. They then opted to work on getting some others involved to get games going and promoting a RWZ scene. I won't say it seemed super competitive from viewing it but it did seem like a good idea to get others more willing to even TRY RWZ out rather than never knowing what it was like. After all, this is still "pre-season".

 

Again, "A" team vs "A" team will always be the best fight and at the end of pre-season and into Season One, if that happens, this is the ideal way. I, for one, just think there would be more competition out there, even if weak at first but with potential to get better.

 

We are over on the Harbinger (did I spell that right?). Usually the guilds involved are Full Resolve, Ascendancy, and Cookies (Cookies is the one that's posted a few videos of all sorcs versus warriors, and sorcs versus BH).

 

What's interesting is the guild most responsible for the kickball style is probably Ascendancy. When ranked first came out they were the top guild on the server by far, but have lost some of their old core group. When we saw that they were still willing to queue up against everyone elses A team (and still be ultra competitive) despite bringing in players from Full Resolve or Cookies it really made an impression on the rest of us.

The guild I run with only runs one team.

 

We messed around with splitting up and pugging and doing two teams, but it was just a pain trying to keep people in the games.

 

If you have enough to run two teams, you have to ask yourself how many of those would have been in a different guild that you could be playing against....

Only time "" Hardcore PvP Guilds "" make up teams for ranked warzones is when new armor comes out and they want to quickly farm ranked com's, soon as they get all their gear there back to doing normal warzones to roll stomp everyone else..... Edited January 30, 2013 by Monoth

Only time "" Hardcore PvP Guilds "" make up teams for ranked warzones is when new armor comes out and they want to quickly farm ranked com's, soon as they get all their gear there back to doing normal warzones to roll stomp everyone else.....

 

False...

Rateds don't pop 24/7

and Sometimes you don't have enough people on or not a good comp.

We are over on the Harbinger (did I spell that right?). Usually the guilds involved are Full Resolve, Ascendancy, and Cookies (Cookies is the one that's posted a few videos of all sorcs versus warriors, and sorcs versus BH).

 

What's interesting is the guild most responsible for the kickball style is probably Ascendancy. When ranked first came out they were the top guild on the server by far, but have lost some of their old core group. When we saw that they were still willing to queue up against everyone elses A team (and still be ultra competitive) despite bringing in players from Full Resolve or Cookies it really made an impression on the rest of us.

 

OMG is that a fuzzy I see?

Two teams for a guild is a bad idea. They either have to queue at different times/nights which is frustrating or they queue at the same time and face each other for most matches and end up hating each other.

False...

Rateds don't pop 24/7

and Sometimes you don't have enough people on or not a good comp.

 

Why not run with a bad comp and consider it a personal challenge? I suspect the answer is that in preseason, a higher rating is the only thing you can show for your effort so folks with high ratings don't want to see their rating going down as a result of a bad composition. Playing with a bad comp doesn't make you a worse player but it does make you lose more and your rating go down. It also means rival XYZ can claim they beat you 3 times in a row once.

 

Are there other reasons? The above are all that I can see.

 

if we had 8v8 challenge matches we could alleviate the obsession with rating as challenge matches would make epeen comparisons easy and folks might be less obsessed with rating and whether or not rival XYZ beats their bad comp 3 times in a row.

 

Of course a real season one would be nice too.

The guild I run with only runs one team.

 

We messed around with splitting up and pugging and doing two teams, but it was just a pain trying to keep people in the games.

 

If you have enough to run two teams, you have to ask yourself how many of those would have been in a different guild that you could be playing against....

Iffy, I consider myself to be better than the majority of sages/sorcs in the other guilds on our server but since Kin wouldn't let me try out (it was on a new char so he had no idea how I would perform) I decided to not join a guild, period, instead. I'm not going to join a group that I think have significally worse players than myself. So no, people arent always forming or joining another guild just because the top guilds refuse to form more than one team. I'm not saying that you're not entitled to that choice, just that I don't agree with your conclusion. One of the best assassins and players on the server is to my knowldge still guildless too and there's a handful of players in either inactive or non-rated guilds that could have been soaked up by the top guilds.

 

For the pub side I have to say that it's a load of bull that the guilds are looking for players. Granted that they might want to see how someone performs in more than one game but I ended up with their premades enough times to realize that it wouldnt matter if you out healed their best healers our out dps'es their best sents, on a sage at that, every time they'd still not send you an invite because they're either not interested in playing rateds or too scared to replace their current player.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Washingtoon

ASB on BC only runs one rated team. We have a lot of talented players but

 

(1) When we queue ranked, we queue with our best, we try to play our best, and we don't give anything back unless people take it from us. If we lose, it is because we were outplayed, not because *Insert X Excuse*.

 

(2) Given (1), if we had another team queue at the same time, it would be a slaughter. Tiny skill differences can make a huge difference in ranked (as they become magnified) and if our top 1-8 players faced our 9-16 players (and by these 'rankings' I mean our ranked leader's perceptions), it would be bad. Not to mention composition is huge, and I would pay a lot of money to see a SWTOR guild with 16 people on at the same time with enough skill and the right composition to queue competitive ranked.

 

(3) Although I try to keep good relations with the members of the other ranked teams on the server, queueing against people you know is an easy way to create hard feelings. A lot of people get upset when they lose and they perceive someone else doing *X* and this can put a large strain on intra-guild relations.

 

Those are just my thoughts from our little RP server

(2) Given (1), if we had another team queue at the same time, it would be a slaughter. Tiny skill differences can make a huge difference in ranked (as they become magnified) and if our top 1-8 players faced our 9-16 players (and by these 'rankings' I mean our ranked leader's perceptions), it would be bad. Not to mention composition is huge, and I would pay a lot of money to see a SWTOR guild with 16 people on at the same time with enough skill and the right composition to queue competitive ranked.

 

This is why "don't match me against a team that is +/- <x> rating different from our team" would be so valuable. It would allow you to run 2 teams and have them never meet if they are playing at vastly different skill levels. This option would also encourage lots of people who tried RWZ and quit because they were tired of being repeatedly rolled by the top teams.

 

Of course with the current preseason system your comment above makes perfect sense.

Iffy, I consider myself to be better than the majority of sages/sorcs in the other guilds on our server but since Kin wouldn't let me try out (it was on a new char so he had no idea how I would perform) I decided to not join a guild, period, instead. I'm not going to join a group that I think have significally worse players than myself. So no, people arent always forming or joining another guild just because the top guilds refuse to form more than one team. I'm not saying that you're not entitled to that choice, just that I don't agree with your conclusion. One of the best assassins and players on the server is to my knowldge still guildless too and there's a handful of players in either inactive or non-rated guilds that could have been soaked up by the top guilds.

 

For the pub side I have to say that it's a load of bull that the guilds are looking for players. Granted that they might want to see how someone performs in more than one game but I ended up with their premades enough times to realize that it wouldnt matter if you out healed their best healers our out dps'es their best sents, on a sage at that, every time they'd still not send you an invite because they're either not interested in playing rateds or too scared to replace their current player.

 

it seems we have reached an impass

Why not run with a bad comp and consider it a personal challenge? I suspect the answer is that in preseason, a higher rating is the only thing you can show for your effort so folks with high ratings don't want to see their rating going down as a result of a bad composition. Playing with a bad comp doesn't make you a worse player but it does make you lose more and your rating go down. It also means rival XYZ can claim they beat you 3 times in a row once.

 

Are there other reasons? The above are all that I can see.

 

if we had 8v8 challenge matches we could alleviate the obsession with rating as challenge matches would make epeen comparisons easy and folks might be less obsessed with rating and whether or not rival XYZ beats their bad comp 3 times in a row.

 

Of course a real season one would be nice too.

no reason to gimp ourselves and get rolled when we could just queue for regs

This is why "don't match me against a team that is +/- <x> rating different from our team" would be so valuable. It would allow you to run 2 teams and have them never meet if they are playing at vastly different skill levels. This option would also encourage lots of people who tried RWZ and quit because they were tired of being repeatedly rolled by the top teams..

 

That would make things very difficult on small servers because there are so few ranked matches, and so few ranked teams. There are just not enough ranked matches for rank stratification. On BC, there's a top team that rarely loses. I don't think it's possible to field a team that could queue against them under your system unless the +/- rating were unreasonably large, which (i) wouldn't be fair to them, and (ii) wouldn't give other teams an opportunity to improve.

 

I'm on the only other set team that regularly queues (though one or two may be forming; here's hoping!). Most of our matches are against the top team, and we lose the great majority of those games. Nevertheless, as far as I recall, we're otherwise undefeated. Our ratings are nevertheless still hovering around 1250ish. (Some in-guild ranked between teams balanced to be even doesn't help, admittedly). The top team probably has a team rating of 2000ish. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Melyn )

Edited January 31, 2013 by stringcat

That would make things very difficult on small servers because there are so few ranked matches, and so few ranked teams.

And why do teams queue for rated then quit? Because they get tired of being crushed every single match. If you give them the option to not have the queue pop if the match is a joke many more would queue.

 

There are just not enough ranked matches for rank stratification. On BC, there's a top team that rarely loses. I don't think it's possible to field a team that could queue against them under your system unless the +/- rating were unreasonably large, which (i) wouldn't be fair to them, and (ii) wouldn't give other teams an opportunity to improve.

The value of +/- <x> should be chosen by the team queuing. If you'd rather get facerolled than not have the queue pop, you could chose <x> = 99999999. If you'd rather continue doing dailies than play a match in which you have 0% chance of winning, you can chose <x> = 500 (or something).

 

As for "(i) not being fair to them", I think you are objecting to the strawman of "BW, not the team queuing, picks a value for +/- <x>". Clearly weak teams that currently want to avoid being repeatedly crushed by the top team do this by never queuing RWZ.

 

I know for a fact that some strong teams chose not to queue if the only other teams queuing are "scrubs". I.e. some strong teams would rather do PvE dailies if they can't be paired against a somewhat challenging opponent.

Edited January 31, 2013 by funkiestj

That would typically amount to a "choose your rated opponent" system, which would lead to easy farming for comms. There are only a few teams in queue at a time even on the largest server; the pug teams would just pick the range that would get them the desired team.

 

I don't really object to this -- in practice on my server rated queues only happen by arrangement anyway -- but I thought I would point it out.

 

And why do teams queue for rated then quit? Because they get tired of being crushed every single match. If you give them the option to not have the queue pop if the match is a joke many more would queue.

 

Well, yes, but it's not like people hang out in ranked queue on my server. People only queue when they know others are queueing -- there's a set night for "competitive" ranked. The teams already know who they're going to face. There's just not a lot of alternatives. (And besides, they want to fight the best teams and to become the best team). The other option for a fresh team would be queueing against PUG groups similarly outmatched. Your system wouldn't solve anything.

Edited January 31, 2013 by stringcat