The problem with Raven is that he of all the Star Wars characters he was a player character in a game where the players felt he was their character. Players always feel their character is the most powerful character in the universe. Granted other characters have also been PCs but Raven's game story is very good and he ended up with a large fan base. This is why I think many paint him as being some force god and endlessly argue about how he can defeat any who oppose him.

Fully agree. Revan will always be that character that people could mold into who they wanted him to be. It's one of the reasons KOTOR will always be one of my favorite games.

I do think for people to make him out to be super-awesome is a bit illogical, though. There's nothing wrong with thinking that your favorite character is awesome (heck, I think Plo Koon is super awesome... which he is ), but there really is no reason to put a favorite character above the rest.

Well that's one scenario. Shatterpoint and Windu's fantastic lightsaber techniques doesn't mean he would automatically win.

Shatterpoint pretty much hands him the victory, but there are other scenarios. They do, however, end with the same result.

Except for Revan blasting him from space, but that's not worthy of debate.

The problem with Raven is that he of all the Star Wars characters he was a player character in a game where the players felt he was their character. Players always feel their character is the most powerful character in the universe. Granted other characters have also been PCs but Raven's game story is very good and he ended up with a large fan base. This is why I think many paint him as being some force god and endlessly argue about how he can defeat any who oppose him.

I don't see him as the most powerful, neither the Exile, or Garen Malek, or the Secret Apprentice (clone of GM) or.. err... I forget the nome of others nice characters.. Or the 8 heroes of the swtor, or.... (and so, and so..)

But I get what you mean, I already see part of that before. For me, who is the most powerful? I don't know, maybe I dislike this thing about most powerful of all (except for Green Lantern in DC. And He isn't my favorite *cof*batman*cof*). I like to see The Chosen One as the most powerful, after all (No, I know world of God says its Luke, I already read most stuffs pos-rotj, for it I say I "like").

So, I tried to stay neutral, seeing through the shadows, but I'm only a human.. and have emotions too.. I already have control of "like", but not of "dislike".

EDIT: Kyle Katarn... I don't believe I said Garen Marek/Clone (who you don't "mold") and forgot his name... /facepalm

To be a leader you don't need to know jack about tactics. The key to winning is to put the right people into the right positions and let them do their work. To say that Raven outwitted the Mando's is a bit of a leap in logic. Better to say Raven's team outwitted the Mandos

Revan commanded half of the republic's fleet, well maybe not half, I don't really remember exactly how much but it was a significant ammount. Soldiers follow orders, Revan's team would be in the same position they were before he joined the war if Revan wasn't coming up with the plans.

Shatterpoint pretty much hands him the victory, but there are other scenarios. They do, however, end with the same result.

Darth Traya (Kreia) had shatterpoint. The exile beat her, no? And Sion+Nihilus also beat her.

Darth Traya (Kreia) had shatterpoint. The exile beat her, no? And Sion+Nihilus also beat her.

She only had a variation of Shatterpoint whilst she was dying and using the Heart of Malachor V to foresee future events.

Shatterpoint pretty much hands him the victory, but there are other scenarios. They do, however, end with the same result.

 

Except for Revan blasting him from space, but that's not worthy of debate.

Windu could be having an off day. No one is perfect. Maybe the underdog will somehow find a way to win, that sort of thing. Jedi do it all the time.

She only had a variation of Shatterpoint whilst she was dying and using the Heart of Malachor V to foresee future events.

How do you know she only had a variation of it?

Windu could be having an off day. No one is perfect. Maybe the underdog will somehow find a way to win, that sort of thing. Jedi do it all the time.

I don't think Mace Windu has 'off-days'

Given that he is as wise as Master Yoda and the most skilled duelist the Jedi Order had, I think Mace Windu would be fine. I mean he did beat Ventress with ease just after beating Sora Bulq.

Now if he had a bad hair day...

I see what you mean though. Jedi have a knack for getting into, and out of, trouble.

How do you know she only had a variation of it?

Because she only uses it the one time, when she has the Trayus Core empowering her visions.

How do you know she only had a variation of it?

She could really only perceive shatterpoints, and along with the Dark energies of the Trayus Core, she was able to perceive ripples in time. I say ripples because it fits with shatterpoint's ability to see the fractures in people, objects, etc.

Mace Windu could manipulate these shatterpoints and apply the Force to them to destroy them.

Revan commanded half of the republic's fleet, well maybe not half, I don't really remember exactly how much but it was a significant ammount. Soldiers follow orders, Revan's team would be in the same position they were before he joined the war if Revan wasn't coming up with the plans.

No, see this is a leap of logic you are making. Revan inspired to go above and beyond. This doesn't make him a tactics mastermind but more like a muse. Do you think the president of the US comes up with the battle plans or does he put generals in charge that do?

I don't think Mace Windu has 'off-days'

 

Given that he is as wise as Master Yoda and the most skilled duelist the Jedi Order had, I think Mace Windu would be fine. I mean he did beat Ventress with ease just after beating Sora Bulq.

 

Now if he had a bad hair day...

 

I see what you mean though. Jedi have a knack for getting into, and out of, trouble.

Oh I think he would be fine too, I know Windu is a bit of a bad mamachama. And that it's pretty much fact that he would win almost all the time, I'm just trying to say no one can win every time.

Hehe, Windu with a bad hair day. I chortled.

No, see this is a leap of logic you are making. Revan inspired to go above and beyond. This doesn't make him a tactics mastermind but more like a muse. Do you think the president of the US comes up with the battle plans or does he put generals in charge that do?

This is actually a good point as Revan would not have been nearly as successful without the likes of Karath, Kavar, and Surik. Without them, the war could have taken a whole different turn.

Revan would have still employed the "aggression" strategy, but without great leaders to execute it successfully, the Mandalorians could have outmaneuvered the Republic fleet.

No, see this is a leap of logic you are making. Revan inspired to go above and beyond. This doesn't make him a tactics mastermind but more like a muse. Do you think the president of the US comes up with the battle plans or does he put generals in charge that do?

But Revan was a general.. he wasn't sitting in some office on corucant he had his on ship going into real battles telling his people what to do.

She could really only perceive shatterpoints, and along with the Dark energies of the Trayus Core, she was able to perceive ripples in time. I say ripples because it fits with shatterpoint's ability to see the fractures in people, objects, etc.

 

Mace Windu could manipulate these shatterpoints and apply the Force to them to destroy them.

Sure but I still don't think that ability would give him the win that easily. Hehe I have a sense that arguing fictional scenarios can't be settled.

She could really only perceive shatterpoints, and along with the Dark energies of the Trayus Core, she was able to perceive ripples in time. I say ripples because it fits with shatterpoint's ability to see the fractures in people, objects, etc.

 

Mace Windu could manipulate these shatterpoints and apply the Force to them to destroy them.

I think you are putting a bit to much power into shatterpoints. Mace may be able to see them but may not be able to use them since they change quickly. It is also unknown what types of shatterpoints he would see or how they would effect the battle. Example with your Raven vs Mace. What if the shatterpoint show how to defeat Revan but also cause a war or some other effect that Mace didn't want to happen.

Oh I think he would be fine too, I know Windu is a bit of a bad mamachama. And that it's pretty much fact that he would win almost all the time, I'm just trying to say no one can win every time.

 

Hehe, Windu with a bad hair day. I chortled.

No one wins all of the time. Even Yoda lost, it just took the most powerful Sith to beat him. Even Mace Windu has his equals. Yoda could beat him in a duel. In a sparring match, he is equal to Qui-Gon Jinn and Count Dooku. This is subjective of course, as he bested Dooku in combat during the Clone Wars. When he gets serious (well, more serious ), he's pretty much going to win. There are very few Jedi or Sith that could beat him in a duel.

Heh, it's funny because he's bald

I think you are putting a bit to much power into shatterpoints. Mace may be able to see them but may not be able to use them since they change quickly. It is also unknown what types of shatterpoints he would see or how they would effect the battle. Example with your Raven vs Mace. What if the shatterpoint show how to defeat Revan but also cause a war or some other effect that Mace didn't want to happen.

He used it to beat Sidious. Shatterpoint played a pivotal role, in conjunction with Vaapad, to beat Sidious.

But Revan was a general.. he wasn't sitting in some office on corucant he had his on ship going into real battles telling his people what to do.

So? Generals are often near the front lines however this doesn't mean generals are tactical geniuses. Again you can be a lackluster tactician as long as you know who is the tactical geniuses are and use them. Example would be Raven using the exile

He used it to beat Sidious. Shatterpoint played a pivotal role, in conjunction with Vaapad, to beat Sidious.

Umm he didn't beat Sidious and his shatterpoint didn't show him the betrayal now did it. If it had shown him the outcome where he got his hand cut off and blasted out the window he might of changed tactics.

So? Generals are often near the front lines however this doesn't mean generals are tactical geniuses. Again you can be a lackluster tactician as long as you know who is the tactical geniuses are and use them. Example would be Raven using the exile

I think what we can say for Revan is that he knew how to use what he had. He had some of the smartest people at his command and directed them very well.

Umm he didn't beat Sidious and his shatterpoint didn't show him the betrayal now did it. If it had shown him the outcome where he got his hand cut off and blasted out the window he might of changed tactics.

He see it.. but was too late.. he was focusing in Sidious, in the end, he see it on Anakin..

No one wins all of the time. Even Yoda lost, it just took the most powerful Sith to beat him. Even Mace Windu has his equals. Yoda could beat him in a duel. In a sparring match, he is equal to Qui-Gon Jinn and Count Dooku. This is subjective of course, as he bested Dooku in combat during the Clone Wars. When he gets serious (well, more serious ), he's pretty much going to win. There are very few Jedi or Sith that could beat him in a duel.

 

Heh, it's funny because he's bald

Seriously, I never know when Mace Windu is serious. How is he? I have a bad feeling about this..

Umm he didn't beat Sidious and his shatterpoint didn't show him the betrayal now did it. If it had shown him the outcome where he got his hand cut off and blasted out the window he might of changed tactics.

George Lucas disagrees with you. Mace Windu won the Lightsaber duel, shatterpoint was key to it. He saw the weaknesses in Sidious' defenses and applied his attack to break them. He also saw Sidious' trust for Anakin, which is one of the reasons he wanted to defeat Sidious quickly.

Mace Windu applied shatterpoint to beat Sidious. He didn't care what effect it had, so long as the Sith were vanquished.