Ok, this is going way off topic, but this is inconsistent with what I've read and with what's in the game. My info is they scrapped SGRA before launch in fear of backlashes. Whatever. Back on topic now.

Did you... read the rest of my post?

Your info is wrong. Trust me. This is not my first "what the hell is up with queer romance (or the lack thereof) in your game, BioWare" thread. I've been riding the Mass Effect train since Day 1, and riding BioWare about their crappy lopsided implementation of s/s romance in Mass Effect since about Day 2. I've had all the arguments, seen all the dev quotes, argued all the political points and dismissed all the spurious "eew icky gays" claims with lots of feisty fannishly entitled contempt. And I can absolutely assure you that Ash and Kaidan were never intended to be queer in ME1. There was a brief moment late in development when the idea flitted across their minds and was dismissed. That is all.

It's actually pretty telling, honestly, because - watch me drag this back around to topic - it's the same thing that happened here, with SWTOR. They planned out these romances, and in a fog of typical unexamined heteronormativity, they planned them all out as heterosexual (and the squads as overwhelmingly male). Then late in the game it was like "oh wait queer fans! But we wrote these romances that are all 'hey female PC I love how female you are' and we can't just flip the gender toggles! This will take so much work to fix! It's too late in development! Shelve it! No queermance for you!"

In Mass Effect it took us five years of yelling to get them to fix it. By that measure, actually, SWTOR's doing fairly well.

Did you... read the rest of my post?

In Mass Effect it took us five years of yelling to get them to fix it. By that measure, actually, SWTOR's doing fairly well.

Anyways, do we have an ETA for Makeb yet ? Or is it still 'some time in spring'?

Actually, there was a thread about this a while back, and several people cited examples of some of the romance letters where the companion specifically mentioned that their species were not compatible (Twi'leks apparently aren't compatible with humans, for instance).

Now that's odd, considering there's twilek/human hybrids in TCW. Hmmm...

Watch, it'll be Valentine's Day, if Makeb isn't the next patch. Wouldn't that be kinda nice?

If it is the next patch, probably around the end of the month. About 3 weeks or so, but that's just me pulling a guess out of thin air.

I can understand why some are jaded and leaving. Your words and support will be missed.

At least try to keep your eyes open for more SGRs in this game if you do go.

**hugs**

Back to Dragon Age...

I just checked Facebook and GLAAD did check back in with me:

Hi there Real Name,

 

We have posted an update on our website:

 

http://www.glaad.org/blog/star-wars-old-republic-announces-same-sex-romances-npcs-will-be-available-soon

Thanks!

I wanted to share that with you guys.

Now that's odd, considering there's twilek/human hybrids in TCW. Hmmm...

Wouldn't be the first time TCW radically contradicted established canon.

They spoke words? With actual syllables? That didn't combine to form the phrase "No more information at this time."?

Brb I'm gonna wake up now.

Now that's odd, considering there's twilek/human hybrids in TCW. Hmmm...

From what I recall reading, there are plenty of genetically engineered hybrids, just not "natural" ones.

Watch, it'll be Valentine's Day, if Makeb isn't the next patch. Wouldn't that be kinda nice?

 

If it is the next patch, probably around the end of the month. About 3 weeks or so, but that's just me pulling a guess out of thin air.

Makeb isn't the next patch - According to what Hickman said in today's blog:

we have two excellent updates coming your way in the upcoming months. In our Game Update 1.7 you should look forward to some interesting changes to a special PvP area that you have all been asking about (sorry for being cryptic, but this is technically not announced yet), as well as a visit from some old friends, The Gree Enclave (though maybe not in a way you would expect). And later in the spring, our Digital Expansion: Rise of the Hutt Cartel! The team has been working for a long time on this, and is very excited to get it out to you.

So we have 1.7 coming next, and February 12-14 is a good guess.

Wow, the State of the Game thread is highly interesting.

Popcorn anyone?

You know this is getting good. My popcorn is bacon flavored.

Although a mod needs to come onto there and let them know about the romance toggle rule...

I can't help but wonder what some of the...very strong opponents think of all of this. I'm just glad it's finally out in the open after all these months.

My popcorn is bacon flavored.

Bacon...flavored...popcorn...

Eww. I like bacon, but only as bacon and eggs, or in a bacon cheeseburger, or as an additional meat topping on my pizza...what is it with this "baconize everything" meme?

Hearing about SGR flirt options on Makeb is good news, though I suspected that companion SGR was delayed.

However it is an answer like we asked for, so thank you Bioware for finally giving that much.

With my subscription running out in less then a week, they give an answer to make me rethink letting it run out and moving on.

British cuss words tend to be overlooked, because ":rolleyes: oh you silly Brits and your arses and shags and fondleslabs"

 

Our shorthand for cigarette, though, is still banned. With good reason, those across the pond would be terribly confused.

You also forgot that a rubber to a Brit is very different than a rubber to a Yank, as one American general so humorously learned many years ago in that anecdote.

As for the main topic, I'm not satisfied with NPC SGR flirts (as the two chars I've already created that'd go bi have a personal dislike of one night stands, and although both are female one is more into females while the other is more into males) I am happy to see something happening (and I'll probably make a pair of chars that are skittish of the long term relationship, due to past traumas, and thus the NPC SGR flirts would flow perfectly for them). It does leave me hopeful that we'll eventually get companion SGR so I'll continue to support the game, barring them making an absolute statement that there won't be any companion SGR, then I'd have to re-think the issue. We did get a yes/no type answer, maybe not to the complete question, but we did get one, and a yes is a very significant milestone, it being NPC's makes it rather minor, but a minor milestone can still be extremely significant, as this minor one means that the can't completely back out later, only partially which some people will be comfortable with and some people won't.

In other thoughts, what happened to my sig? It had two lines, and one got removed, and it was there last night when I was checking the forum. I'm guessing an admin had to have done that, and I would've appreciated a message telling me why they did so, as otherwise that's just being an arsehole. Since it wasn't necessarily accurate anymore with the latest announcement I've put in a different second line to my sig, but I'd still appreciate a message asking me to change it if they don't like it and giving me a minimum of 36 hours to get it changed (so that I've got time to find out about the message and act on it) before they take action themselves.

I can't help but wonder what some of the...very strong opponents think of all of this. I'm just glad it's finally out in the open after all these months.

I think one could guess....or could take a look at some of the responses that have popped up in the blog's thread. But I'd rather just not go there.

And bacon is good in a lot of things, but not nearly as many things as some would have me think. There was a bacon flavored milkshake at Jack in the Box for a while.

Good news, but this

that many of you believed that this would be with a companion character.

has me a bit worried that they won't be implementing SGRA with companions. Also a bit concerned that any same gender flirts are only going to take play with new content, which would mean 50 levels of nothing.

Bacon...flavored...popcorn...

 

Eww. I like bacon, but only as bacon and eggs, or in a bacon cheeseburger, or as an additional meat topping on my pizza...what is it with this "baconize everything" meme?

Since this was posted while I was typing mine I'll double post, but I don't get it either, as I only enjoy bacon in a BLT or other sandwich (like a bacon cheeseburger) or as pieces on a salad. I've been known to nibble on it at times, such as when cooking some up to have BLTs, but I really don't like that much of it at once and I find this "baconize everything" meme borderline disgusting myself.

Good news, but this

 

many of you believed that this would be with a companion character

 

has me a bit worried that they won't be implementing SGRA with companions. Also a bit concerned that any same gender flirts are only going to take play with new content, which would mean 50 levels of nothing.

I think that's overreacting based on only a part of the quote. Everyone really needs to read the full thing:

"I realize that we promised SGR to you guys and that many of you believed that this would be with a companion character." - This part is simply a statement of our expectation. That's all.

"Unfortunately, this [companion SGR] will take a lot more work than we realized at the time and it [companion SGR] has been DELAYED as we focused on the changes required to take the game Free-to-Play." - This part simply says that companion SGR is delayed due to FTP and taking more work than expected. They did not say canceled, just delayed.

I think fears that companion SGR is totally off the table based on this quote are unfounded. Actually, they are more likely today than at any point in SWTORs history! (Ok, except maybe really early production.) This is the first, and only, official statement posted to the official website saying that "yes, SGR will be in the game." That is a HUGE step forward and opens a door that was previously, locked, barred and sealed. No, this announcement is NOT everything I would have wanted, but it is still a hugely favorable development and one we should be glad to see.

It's important to note that the idea that "all it will take for SGR companions" is to "throw the gender switch" is ridiculous. Yes, each character does have a flag on them that says if they are male or female, but it's likely far more complicated than whether companions will offer you romance conversations or not. That switch likely governs everything related to gender choice.

For example, on my BH I just had a cutscene where I walked into a room and a soldier said "there sir, that's her." If Bioware "just flips the switch" that scene would likely say "there sir, that's him." That one flag governs all cutscenes you get. The companion romances are flagged as "male" or "female" and so are many other cutscenes. If you flip the switch so a female character gets the male companion conversations, then that character will probably also get ALL male conversations and cutscenes!

It could easily go more in-depth than that. Character appearance may be based on that same flag. While your character is flagged to have body type 1, face 7, hair style 6, skin color 13 and so on, the game translates those numbers based on your gender flag. If Bioware "flips that switch" then all of a sudden your character could completely flip gender. They'll still have body 1, but it'll be male now and not female.

I don't know if that's how the game works, but it's entirely possible. Every single element in the game that is determined by gender may be based on a single flag on your character. If so, flipping that flag will completely change your character in every respect. Just because you WANT it to be easy to change the game doesn't mean it IS. It could take quite a lot of programming, from the ground up, to make the game capable of SGR companion relationships. That's no simple task. It's totally worth asking for and I'm on board with that, but it's silly to assume that it's an easy thing.

Yay, actual information!

So here is my interpretation of what was said.

He mentioned that many of us believed that SGR content was going to include companions, and that this content is taking longer than they anticipated. To me this means that originally it was planned to have some npc relationships that were available, but the devs quickly realized that wasn't going to completely cut it and the players really wanted more than what was planned (specifically we wanted companion romance).

If that is the case it is entirely understandable that it is taking so long. They probably had to suspend the whole thing because someone realized that the way it was being made was completely insufficient until they figured out exactly what to do. Basically, if events unfolded as I suspect, at some point during SGRA development they had to completely start over and the long silence is probably a direct result of that (not knowing how it was going to work or what they could do).

Given that we have some confirmed SGR conversations with NPCs in Makeb, I think that all future conversations are being written with both OG and SG in mind in terms of conversations. In the future we will probably get this done for the entire original campaign. It sounds like the delay in the content is caused by a change of scope and an increase of the depth of the conversations, so the entire original campaign is probably a much bigger project than we realize (or they originally realized, from the sounds of it).

Overall I think this information is really great news and is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to know how the development of the content was coming along which is what we got. Sorry if this sounds like I'm rambling, I'm just excited to finally get some news.

Since this was posted while I was typing mine I'll double post, but I don't get it either, as I only enjoy bacon in a BLT or other sandwich (like a bacon cheeseburger) or as pieces on a salad. I've been known to nibble on it at times, such as when cooking some up to have BLTs, but I really don't like that much of it at once and I find this "baconize everything" meme borderline disgusting myself.

Sometimes something that sounds really gross actually turns out to be great. I had a bacon sundae once and I fully expected it to be awful (I was trying it just for novelty value). It turned out to be awesome because the saltiness of the bacon tasted great with the sweet of the ice cream.

Basically I'm saying don't knock it till you've tried it.

Ohhh, must have bacon flavored popcorn. We had candied bacon for Christmas dinner, was soooooooo delicious.

On topic, I personally am very happy for the announcement, any information is better than nothing, as people can now make informed decisions on whether they will stick around or leave for other places. Though from reading the thread about State of the Game I can see why BW would be a little hesitant about saying anything. Too many people forgetting its just a game.

Also, didn't know there was an issue with the APAC servers, but I hope they get some info soon.

^.^

Wow, the State of the Game thread is highly interesting.

 

Popcorn anyone?

 

You know this is getting good. My popcorn is bacon flavored.

 

Although a mod needs to come onto there and let them know about the romance toggle rule...

 

I can't help but wonder what some of the...very strong opponents think of all of this. I'm just glad it's finally out in the open after all these months.

People are freaking out over a few same-gender flirts being added to Makeb? Really?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Well, the last solid info on when we'd see Makeb was a quote from Jeff Hickman at the New Orleans Cantina Tour where he stated that the Ilum revamp would be launching with Makeb, the first public inklings that an expansion was on the horizon, I believe. Previously, Ilum had been mentioned as going to be relaunched around 'February/March'. March is /almost/ 'spring', the current term being bandied about. I imagine that now that most everyone's back from the holidays, we'll probably see a firmed up launch date announced soon or some variant of 'soon' that resembles something like the two dates bandied about.

I'm just gonna reiterate a few things here from my original post back in the day, just to kind of bring some of the details back into the forefront as something to consider, if you'd like, as to why it may have taken forever and a day to get to this point:

1) Election season. It was a big deal, and very heated, as we all remember (and I loathed). There were ads against gays in my area, so it was a very sensitive time to be announcing something that would rile up the naysayers even worse than usual. That's done for the most part, yay!

2) If you can marry an OGR companion, you should be allowed to marry an SGR one. That's also a huge deal in today's social environment and probably one of the more sensitive topics to have to work with. Personally, I think it should be equal, no questions, no hesitations, no 'only some folks get this, and some don't'. I haven't really seen that as being a big factor in commentary here, but it's probably a part of external dialogue due to the vociferous nature of the anti-SGR crowd. I'm gonna grin like a fool as soon as more folks realize this and such a change goes live on-game. I want this to happen because it's the RIGHT thing to do. As in, y'know, EQUAL RIGHTS.

3) The simple logistics of making a fully SGRA-loaded game after the fact. As much as it would have been the sweetest thing to have had SGR content from day -100 until the present, it didn't happen. And none of us would (or should!) be happy with a cack-handed sloppy 'flip a toggle' sort of switching around. I'd be offended on your behalf. Hell, I'd be embarrassed on BioWare's behalf if they had done this. Writing new dialogue that /works/, writing all-new romance paths that feel genuine and sincere and respectful and on a par with the OGR stuff already in-game? No mean feat, that. Then adding having to have it recorded, assuming all the VAs are still on the case and willing (no reason necessarily to think otherwise). Then making up the art assets to make it look good. All the programming to make the wheel work and the code to make it all happen? --- all this on top of having to suddenly turn the entire studio upside down to accommodate F2P when it's obvious to me that everything else got backburnered... I'm honestly surprised they're keeping to the 'with Makeb' promise from back in the day, but not so much surprised that it's going to be a gradual process rather than an retcon of the entire game.

This journey has to start somewhere, and this is a good first step. There's some wobbly, but I look forward to the second step and the third and and and...

My friend actually said he might pick up the game now that they're actually putting SGRs in the game. And he hates PC games. Hear that BioWare? ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THINGS IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS!

I'm also happy because it means I'll finally have someone to group with! Anyone else on PotF?

I know a lot of people are stumbling over one or two parts of the Hickman update, but I'd like to state my piece on it.

The update doesn't hint at all that SGRAs won't be in for companions. Nor does it hint they won't be in for existing companions, nor does it state that people are being 'thrown a bone' or being told to 'make do' with non-companion NPC flirts when OGRAs exist for companion NPCs.

What it does say, and the only thing it says for sure, is that companion SGRAs will not be in the expansion, and that non-companion NPC SGR content (presumably flirts and/or Azalie-style hookups) will be in the expansion.

We can stumble and argue over the minutiae until the proverbial cows come home but in the end that's all we've been told (along with an acknowledgement that we've been waiting, an apology for the same and an admission that the companion SGRA content has, at the very least, been delayed).

The bottom line is that we need more information. Everything read into the update or assumed from the usage of 'will' instead of 'would have' and similar is speculation. Just speculation. Maybe it's accurate; maybe it's not. But it is still just speculation.

If you're determined to be disappointed I say: go for it. If the worst the dev teams get from the nine months of silence we've endured is a bit of snark and a general 'I'll see it when I believe it' attitude they're getting off light, and I believe they know that.

If (like me) you've decided to take the Hickman update in a positive light then let yourself be positive! Don't be forced into a negative mind-space because others are too hurt over the silent treatment to really take BW:A at its word just yet (which, in my mind, is perhaps fair enough).

Everyone is going to react to this a little differently and that's fair enough. Even people determined to throw unreasoning fear and hate at SGRAs. Let them hate. Let them demand this content not go in; the fact is their attitude is irrelevant. It's going in. The only questions are how and when, and both of those questions are partially answered already.

Don't fight. Flag the hate and move on. As Terry Pratchett once wrote, 'Nil Illegitimus Carborundum'.