Couple of thoughts on this.

I agree we need to keep the discussions civil and try not to bait/troll when we disagree. Discussing the game direction the last 2 years has been like trying to talk politics to a room of strangers - Everyone has their opinion and that is the only correct one that can exist. Several threads have devolved from a discussion on the OP's topic to bashing and name calling, which is not constructive in anyway.

But if we are on the forums talking about what bugs us, that shows we still care about the game. Those who got fed up just left, and look where that got us. The company I work for has a lot of clients. When a client says something is wrong, their reporting/programming needs to be changed, or that they need us to do something better, it does sting. But if we look at it from the customer's side, and see what they are seeing, then we can talk or make adjustments to their product. If we tell them that the only way they can use the product/service is the way we tell them, then they will walk away and find someone who will provide what they looking for in a product/service.

I am glad to see that the current team is open to having threads about 'forum decorum' and the path the game has taken. In the past threads like this were moved on a consistent basis to the Off Topic and left to die. Discussion can and will let both the development team and the players know what is on each other's minds. Keep it civil, state your opinion and facts to back it up, and respect that others may not agree.

In essence, all Pubs must die. Not be our allies, not fight along side one another facing a greater evil, not coming to understand each other better, not become more tolerant of the differences between us, dead dead dead. I don't care how it improves quece times allowing pubs and imps to be on the same team. They are the enemy, we're supposed to hate each other and kill each other on sight.

 

There is no middle ground when it comes to Jedi and Sith [and please with the grey jedi bs, it's lore breaking and just dumb]. There is a Lightside and there is a Darkside, one of for knowledge and defense and the other is for attack and control. These are insurmountable differences, these are ethical differences, these are diametrically opposed ideologies.

That is SWTOR & George Lucas Star Wars at it's best. It's also Tom & Jerry at their best.

If there's one thing I wish could happen is the ability to equip a Stealth Generator like in the Original Games. Kira Carson has one for a minute so we know they exist in the era, and I find it completely weird that some classes stealth and not others. It's immersion breaking to me, because it's a complete contradiction. You have this tech but it's not available to HAVOC Squad, an Imperial Sniper, JK's, SW's, or Gunslingers? It's game mechanics, I get that so, why not make it an option to buy Stealth Belts?

If I were to find one thing about in game play and story, that makes me nuts it's not enough Bonus Missions! As a hardcore LS player, I want and need as many opportunities to get LS points and get the warm gooey feels of helping others as possible. But you could say that DS players need more opportunities to spread mayhem, go on a power trip, and look like Palpatine as much as possible. More Bonus Quests please!

As much as some players dislike the Zakul story, I'm incensed at what happened to Revan and the Exile. First, they weren't mine at all! Second, both their endings were insulting considering they're made into LS heroes. Mine were LS but that's where the similarities ended! Of course, I know it's done and dusted, that will never change ever, but it is the ONE thing I loath about this game. It's also probably while I'll not care for Scourge too much. If Revan and Exile were left as ambiguous I wouldn't be so angry, but I'm old, KOTOR hands down is my favorite SW's thing ever, and now it barley matters anymore!

To sum up, I think lots can be improved in this game. I hope that in the future ALL companions will have great stories and roles outside of crafting and combat. However, on the whole I am in awe of the hard work, creativity, passion, and dedication that makes up a brilliant game.

The reason I said tone matters is because all too often on these forums, you have a certain group of people who talk down to others stating their opinions.

I can think of a few.

For Developer and Forum poster alike.

Agreed, that was my intent. Glad you guys noticed and also appreciated the article.

You can not discern tone from text. Tone is applied by the reader. if you're in a pissy mood or just a plain ol drama queen you'll apply whatever tone you want and most likely take the comments out of context.

I cannot express in words how much I love this post. its literally everything I've ever said to anyone when communicating or debating in game, and possibly occasionally even here on the forums. Tone cannot be read through text - its possible to find indicators of tone in tone, but tone itself is something that is carried in the voice of the speaker and not through the words being said.

When reading what someone has written - its best to interpret it 100% derivative and ignore whatever implicative meaning you might think is there. If one finds the meaning of a post suspect please ask for clarification before assuming something negative and attacking when the previous poster might not have meant anything derogative with what he or she had written.

I would like to know if staff is really interested in this discussion.

From what I've seen previously, they're not.

Speaking from experience, I can assure you they most definitely do 'monitor' the forums. I have a list of infractions and bans the length of my arm. In this last year or so, I've had ban times over half a year [ got two 3 month bans that had about 2 months between them and than 2 or 3 one week bans. They are definitely willing to hold you accountable and do more than just warn you.

 

I couldn't post at all for the first two and half months of 5.0 because one my 3 month bans just started like 10 days before 5.0 dropped and it was very frustrating because like any other new meta there are so many things being discussed about the changes a new meta brings in and this one more than many others!

 

Tread carefully if you do not want to be banned, they don't just give you slaps on the wrist.

I just unsubscribed because my queer kind of thinking people in other forums know isn't understood here.

At least I can put out my own thought-lines elsewhere. People know me there, and it is fun to discuss with them there.

Maybe I should just start a blog. But then,. on the other hand, I might become a target for trolls and other people.

What always shakes me with horror is the inability of people to be sensitive. I mean, I'm a member of HSPs, and most of us are able to sense so much more through words wordings and formulations than other people. Most extrovert people don't even realize how much damage they do with tiny words.

But yes, internet discussions are being taken over by extrovert people, who use BIG words and BIG wordings and BIG formulations. They are using words and sentences like bombs, and leave behind nothing but a burned discussion wasteland. Introvert and sensitive people are the first who go away from these "wars with words". ( I think the idea that one can wage war with words came from Cicero, but I'm not sure with that .)

It's as if people shoot with words first - and think only after that (if at all), that's how many discussions feel to me.

Actual thinking has become an lost art, it seems to me, sometimes.

You can not discern tone from text. Tone is applied by the reader. if you're in a pissy mood or just a plain ol drama queen you'll apply whatever tone you want and most likely take the comments out of context.

Which is why I always write my short stories when I'm in good mood.

I once actually felt that : I was reading through the report of a journed through Tibet. I felt so much uneasy when I read the first pages of it, and it grew more and more dreadful.

At one point I just had to stop, even although the words just couldn't support anything. The words alone seemed to me normal.

Later I found out that this book - I hadn't known who the author actually was, althgough I had read his name - had been a Nazi. And yes, I swear I could sense and feel all his disgust and hate about the people there through these words and wordings and formulations.

Since then I'm careful with deciding which books to read.

Personally, i prefer the story republic vs empire, and hate cooperation between them or the story which draws on fighting some third party (zakuul, iokath etc). Of course one way of the story (reps vs imps) would be boring so I think that time-to-time we need to have some distraction from classic story (reps vs imps) which may have content related to fighting some other party, HOWEVER such plot must appear rarely and the main basis must include the content "reps vs imps".

 

About pvp:

I don't think that all players will support me, however me and many pvp friends of mine are feeling that we have a very little opportunity to kill other players in this game..

 

So i would like to criticize pvp in your game.... it's terrible, tanks can guard anyone on 50% damage transfer which means a team with 2 skilled healers (which are also opped in this game) and a tank are just unkillable. I NEVER saw an mmo where tanks could take 50% damage on them, such issue makes pvp boring since no one is dying, and healers mustn't be so effective.

 

By playing your game I noticed you guys are taking "defensive policy" for your players which means that you are defending your players from other player even on pvp servers (currently - instances): the territories on most of the planets for reps and imps are separated, builded in a way that there is a very small chance that players from different factions may meet each other, and some of the planets are just fully separated for both factions (for example taris);

 

 

the other aspects of your "defensive policy" is basic rules of warzones... you know that the warzones in your game could be won WITHOUT A SINGLE KILL? This especially occurs when both groups on warzone are skilled and really wants to win. This means Controlling-tapping on novare coast, throwing huttball, stealing (stealth capping) bases on civil war instead of killing each other. From perspective of some players such game style may be a good issue, since such game is based on "objectives gaming", "tactical gaming", HOWEVER: such gaming style doesn't provide much opportunity of killing other players (if players wont interrupt tapping, defend nodes, get-pass huttball instead of killing others - they loose). Considering that swtor has DEAD World pvp, players must have an opportunity for bloodshed, opportunity to kill high numbers of other players, yet warzones are not providing it. In this case i prefer WOW's battlegrounds which are more based on killing other team to win (you can't throw flag on war song gulch far away, in most cases you can't "stealth" cap a base on arathi basin or battle of gilneas due to most of the classes having 2-3 escape abilities, whilst in swtor "defense policy" provides many stuns and only 1 escape for most of the classes (with some exceptions,for example sorc's bubble etc).

 

Of course there are still many fights where players ignore objectives and killing each other for win, nevertheless i noticed that such games are becoming more rare, because of premades fighting each other and due to cxp system which forces players to win war zones (spam tap on novare, stealth stealing bases, passing huttball without killing etc) in order to get more cxp.

 

All thing considered, tanks mustn't have guard on 50%;whether current warzones should be rebuilt or new warzones where players actually have to kill each other to win should be implemented; maybe some other adjustments (healing diminishing etc)

Is the objective in pvp just to slaughter each other or is it to defeat your opponents? would you want a game where everyone had the same offensive powers and no heals? Lots of kills there for you. Or would you want a thinking mans game where you time your dcds and heals and support your team mates?

I agree with much of this. Stars Wars at it's core us about Lightside vs Darkside, Jedi vs. Sith, The Republic vs the Empire traditionally speaking and certainly the basis upon which fans first fell in love with Star Wars. I've said it before in a different context, but I think it still applies. Star Wars is forever.

 

I don't want to be fighting alongside Jedi, I want to be fighting Jedi. I don't want to try and explain why the Darkside isn't bad to the Jedi I was to be shoving my lightsaber's thru thier sternum stating why the Darkside is Stronger than the Lightside [which it is, come on, it's so obvious!] while relishing the fact that even if it's not true, that Jedi won't be able to try and convince me of the 'error of my ways'.

 

In essence, all Pubs must die. Not be our allies, not fight along side one another facing a greater evil, not coming to understand each other better, not become more tolerant of the differences between us, dead dead dead. I don't care how it improves quece times allowing pubs and imps to be on the same team. They are the enemy, we're supposed to hate each other and kill each other on sight.

 

There is no middle ground when it comes to Jedi and Sith [and please with the grey jedi bs, it's lore breaking and just dumb]. There is a Lightside and there is a Darkside, one of for knowledge and defense and the other is for attack and control. These are insurmountable differences, these are ethical differences, these are diametrically opposed ideologies. Even if you enjoin the idea that the Jedi are willing to try and help Darksiders repent and come to the light, Sith are not willing to do the same in return. You can say that the Jedi don't actually hate darksiders, they feel pity for them, but Darksiders do not share that sentiment. You can join the Darkside, or you can die, there is no middle ground. Dead, dead, dead.

 

Wzs where you are fighting against pubs are so much funner than same faction WZs. It okay for a temporary alliance, but as it is now its gone on far too long. I think most people enjoy the tradtional model best, Pubs vs Imps to the death.

 

We're enemies, we always were, we always will be, and quite honestly I don't want that to ever change.

 

I'm not interested in winning WZs soley on strategy because we out thought the enemy, I want to fight my enemies, and I want to kill them. It's called a "war" zone for a reason. I play WZs for one reason and one reason only, because I Love to fight.

 

I personally don't have much of a problem with healing and tanking in WZs, there are different roles for a reason, but there may be a bit too much of these things overall. A little less healing would be better and a little less protection going out, but I am not at all against it in theory, just in adjusting the amounts slightly.

 

Certainly there are times when no one is dieing much because of all the healing going on, but I am virtually never encountering instances wherein during regular WZs people aren't dieng and I'm not killing anyone. If that were the case I'd stop playing because killing is the only thing I really am interested in doing in this game.

 

Class balance is most certainly an issue and the class imbalances current are among some of the worst I've ever seen in this game. That said more balance would improve the enjoyment level of the experience, and I think it would be of even greater value to address the amount of CCs being constantly thrown around every 3 seconds and would say this is one of the most unfun aspects of WZs. Less CC would make the experience funner.

 

I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't enjoying PVP, but it certainly has it's downsides and at times it can be down right sickening when there are such differences in enemy groups [i.e, one group having 2 or 3 healers and the other none], it is often the case because of such inequality between groups that matches are often won or lost before they even start. There definately needs to be more balancing going on and consideration given to the inequalities groups often face, if one thing is going to kill PVP that will be it if it continues in the form has been.

 

Just some thoughts.

Is that why Luke killed his father? Wait, it seems like it may not be all black and white after all.

Is that why Luke killed his father? Wait, it seems like it may not be all black and white after all.

But.....Luke didn't kill his father. He refused to kill him and threw away his lightsaber.

But.....Luke didn't kill his father. He refused to kill him and threw away his lightsaber.

You mean star wars doesnt teach us that jedi kill every sith they see?? That maybe the universe is mor ecomplicated than that?

You mean star wars doesnt teach us that jedi kill every sith they see?? That maybe the universe is mor ecomplicated than that?

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - I heard that somewhere.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - I heard that somewhere.

Hehe Obi-Wan said that to Anakin on Mustafar.

But I would love to combine Empire and Republic guilds, especially for those of us that don't do pvp. I came from SWG where guilds were multi-factions and able to do things together (other than pvp and the Hoth instance) so that is something my guild kind of misses.

I just want to point out that well true that it is hard to decipher tone at times from a forum post or words, it is not true that you can never decipher tone.

 

The reason I said tone matters is because all too often on these forums, you have a certain group of people who talk down to others stating their opinions. That is a point in time where tone can certainly be seen in the text.

 

Let me be perfectly crystal clear: when I say talking down to others I do not mean disagreeing with their opinion. When I say talking down to others I mean not putting forth any sort of a rebuttal against someone else's opinion but instead of talking as if that person who made the opinion is either stupid or crazy or ignorant or just a jerk.

 

It's a very slick way people use to troll in these forms without technically violating the terms of service.

 

The reason I brought up tone is because I specifically think that these types of posts need to be shut down as they are toxic for the community, do nothing to encourage further debate or conversation, providing zero useful feedback, and only serve to try to enforce groupthink.

Devil's advocate ...

The reason I brought up tone is because I specifically think that these types of posts need to be shut down as they are toxic for the community,

Hypothetically ...

YOU don't like my tone? YOU are calling me toxic?! Well <insert counter rant here>

Point above is how a post is received is in the eye of the beholder. It's not good that any of us sit here and play judge and jury as to what could be considered toxic or not when dealing with "tone" - there are rules against actual toxic insults so we have to trust mods to do their jobs. Once we start making posts defaming others posts as being toxic or poor tone all we are doing is being just as bad and inflaming situations further.

Is that why Luke killed his father? Wait, it seems like it may not be all black and white after all.

But.....Luke didn't kill his father. He refused to kill him and threw away his lightsaber.

and

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" - I heard that somewhere.

Hehe Obi-Wan said that to Anakin on Mustafar.

 

But I would love to combine Empire and Republic guilds, especially for those of us that don't do pvp. I came from SWG where guilds were multi-factions and able to do things together (other than pvp and the Hoth instance) so that is something my guild kind of misses.

This posts are exactly why you cannot try to base things on tone when it is just text. Reading these, it was clear to me that the original posts were meant in a sarcastic manner, but the responses by CrazyCT and casirabit obviously thought they were serious, and so responded as such (I could be wrong, and they ops could have been serious, or the responses could have been sarcastic and I'm missing understanding them, but obviously someone is making a mistake here).

I'm not saying people should not say sarcastic things, the forums would be pretty boring in that case, and usually you can make it pretty obvious (tossing the word kappa in there helps, means "this statement should be taken sarcastically" for those who don't know, or saying "oh wait..."), but regardless simply assuming someone will understand the tone that I meant is a mistake.

I once had a raid squad memeber who couldn't use his microphone, but would still like to joke around., Unfortunately, since he was not speaking, his "jokes" could come across as pretty mean. If you say in voice to the guy who got the highest parse "what a scrub" or "l2p" because he got 9k dps instead of the 9.2 he got last week in a very sarcastic voice, the recipient of the joke will laugh and move along. You do it via ops chat though, and it can come across as rude and condescending, even if you didn't mean it that way.

That being said, there is also no reason to baby someone, either on the forums or in game either. Telling someone "your dps is too low" is not an insult if you just hit enrage, and they pulled 3k dps and everyone else in the group pulled 7k, even if they take it that way. Telling them "you suck and should uninstall the game" is crossing the line. Fortunately, there are report mechanics both in game and on the forums, so if you feel like someone stepped over the line, there is a way to get redress.

As an aside, since some people were saying we aren't allowed to criticize BW here, it would be interesting to know whether a person who got a forum vacation got it due to another player reporting it, or BW doing it on their own. I would bet that most are from other players reporting it and bring it to BWs attention first (for example, saying "the story sucked and they should fire all the writers" would be something that would actually bother other players, especially those who did like the story, so I would not be surprised if that is how it came about"). Maybe it would be helpful if BW actually informed the receipient, as if it came to BWs knowledge due to other players reporting it, they would probably not be quite as upset at BW (though maybe more upset at other players, which is probably not an improvement...) meh, probably not gonna happen.

TLDR: Be very careful with what you write on a forum. Tone is incredibly difficult to discern via text, so if you aren't sure if someone will take it as an insult, the answer is probably that yes, they will.

Hey everyone,

 

I've stared at my comments and your reactions, read every post in this thread, and came to realize how wrong I was yesterday for making that post. I'd love to chalk it up as a newb action, but that'd just be an excuse for underestimating the impact from our words, our comments, our reactions, and for the time being, especially mine.

 

I just finished the articles recommended by Deewe:

 

 

I really liked the outline of the Criticism article and for those who haven't had a chance to read it, here's the bullets:

• Everyone who dislikes your work is right
  
• The criticism that is useful is that which helps you do it better
  
• Nothing’s perfect
  
• You often have to choose between your ideals and your message
  
• You have to dig to get the gold
  
• Good feedback is detailed
  
• People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous
  
• Someone asked for feedback will always find something wrong
  
• Good work may not have an audience
  
• Any feedback that comes with suggestions for improvement is awesome
  
• If you agree with the criticism, say “thank you.” If you disagree, say “fair enough,” and “thank you"
  
• You are not your work
  

 

It's a great guide for me and the entire SWTOR Team and I'll do my very best to ensure all of us follow the advice offered.

 

What I find the most humbling is the outreach from many of you, in these forums, and in personal messages. You've told me how you feel and provided me with insightful guidance and suggestions for the future. You didn't lash out, as I honestly believe everyone knows I was not trying to be vindictive or suggest you cannot criticize me or the Dev Team. Yet, that's exactly how I came across, and

I apologize both for my comments, but also for the thought processes that led me down that path.

 

Thank you for your continued patience with me and I promise to continue making mistakes while learning from them and doing what I can to make things better.

 

Respectfully,

 

Keith

 

It takes a big man to admit his mistakes, and although I'm not one of the ones who took what you said the wrong way..... I got mad respect for you for this post.

Now.... about those returning companions....

Hey everyone,

I've stared at my comments and your reactions, read every post in this thread, and came to realize how wrong I was yesterday for making that post. I'd love to chalk it up as a newb action, but that'd just be an excuse for underestimating the impact from our words, our comments, our reactions, and for the time being, especially mine.

I applaud your gesture since it may help, but I don't agree with it. I don't think indulging temper tantrums, whether they are based around valid criticism or not, is good for anyone. I understand that people were raised with different values, but I really think posters should find enough dignity in themselves to stop lashing out because they are frustrated.

Everyone gets frustrated, that is not an excuse to be abusive towards the dev team or fellow players, regardless of whether or not one is for or against an idea. I'm not talking about the occasional passionate slip but rather a habit of disregarding decency because a player is "angry". I believe it helps to foster an atmosphere on the forum that turns people away due to toxicity.

If one is too angry to make their case without lashing out, they are likely too angry to make a post without distracting from it with drama.

However, I will concede since its not my decision to make. Hopefully this olive branch will cool some of the anger of people that feel that the team is not doing enough to admit their mistakes.

 

This posts are exactly why you cannot try to base things on tone when it is just text. Reading these, it was clear to me that the original posts were meant in a sarcastic manner, but the responses by CrazyCT and casirabit obviously thought they were serious, and so responded as such (I could be wrong, and they ops could have been serious, or the responses could have been sarcastic and I'm missing understanding them, but obviously someone is making a mistake here).

 

Did you not notice when I responded about Obi-Wan I said Hehe? That was supposed to be funny, a joke. the other comment was something I wished for because of coming from SWG but the comment about Obi-Wan was said in a joking manner which is why I said Hehe.

When I respond in a joking manner I normally either make it obvious with "hehe" "smirk" or a funny smily so people know I am joking. I always try to be clear when typing (something my law professor taught me) as text is very difficult to determine if your context is not clear.

It takes a big man to admit his mistakes, and although I'm not one of the ones who took what you said the wrong way..... I got mad respect for you for this post.

 

Now.... about those returning companions....

OMGosh.....this tone just wont do!

Hi Keith,

Glad you appreciated the article. Though as everything not sure you want to take it to the letter but more as suggestions.

Still as mentioned by others the article is also worth reading for the players.

In regards of communication I would suggest to replace the term constructive criticism by detailed criticism. It is less aggressive and in no way dismiss the feedback provided while also opening the door for more explicit comments.

Now in regards of:

I came to realize how wrong I was yesterday for making that post.

Again, I would not say you were THAT wrong, more like a faux pas. That regarding your post history is totally excusable.

Wish you and your team a great week-end and soon enough an awesome July, 4th!

D.

• People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous

I think everything else in the list was good, but I'm not so sure about this. You folks are awesome and a lot of the stuff you do is awesome. Of course you're not perfect and the work isn't perfect. None of us are, and none of us do perfect work. But if a lot of players genuinely enjoy a particular aspect of the game, I think it's useful for us to say it, so that the devs know to keep doing that. I don't mean that we should never criticize... Even when I find something awesome, I still usually find some way I think it could be better... But I think that giving feedback about something being good is valuable too.

I think everything else in the list was good, but I'm not so sure about this. You folks are awesome and a lot of the stuff you do is awesome. Of course you're not perfect and the work isn't perfect. None of us are, and none of us do perfect work. But if a lot of players genuinely enjoy a particular aspect of the game, I think it's useful for us to say it, so that the devs know to keep doing that. I don't mean that we should never criticize... Even when I find something awesome, I still usually find some way I think it could be better... But I think that giving feedback about something being good is valuable too.

That point was just referring to people who never criticise anything because they're in love with the devs. Pointing out things that are wrong with the game is ultimately better for the game in the long run. Not pointing them out or ignoring them because you think the developers can do no wrong is not good for the game. From a developer point of view it would be less painful in the short term if noone pointed out where your game has problems, but then you risk falling into a trap of believing your game is perfect and doesn't need adjusting.