[*]Merc and Commando

• Innovative Ordnance/Assault Specialist
  
• Arsenal/Gunnery
  

 

-eric

Please be sure to address each of these disciplines separately.

 

Assault does not have near the same strengths that Gunnery does. Gunnery has a skill to absorb the next 5 tech attacks, Assault does not (5% defense chance instead). Assault needs help with energy management...it has been a long standing issue.

Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!!

 

Keith---

 

Hi Keith, it's great to see you participating so enthusiastically 😊

 

I just wanted to add my two cents worth about Sorc and Sage. I've mained these since launch and I've seen them OP and UP many times.

The best they've come to being balanced was a in 3.x, around the time we had the Force Storm issue causing everyone to slow for too long and people started to complain about them being OP, when really it was force storm causing all the issues. The high damage they were doing was from people fluffing numbers by spamming Force Storm and it still happens today 🙄

Unfortunately I think there was some confusion from you guys as to what was making the Sorc OP and what need to be adjusted. So instead of nerfing Force Storm, you nerfed single target burst damage which was fine and nerfing it sent the class on a downward spiral to the bottom.

If Force Storm happened been so OP, the class would have been perfectly balanced between damage output and survivabilty.

So IMO what is missing from Lightning Sorcs is burst damage. They are the most under performing burst spec in the game and hit like a soggy paper bag.

They don't even need a massive buff to single target burst to get it back where it was and the last thing I want is for them to become OP.

I would even forgo Phase Walk for some proper dps burst potential so we can hold our own against all other burst specs.

Every time someone enters PvP, they get a "PvP Trauma" debuff that drops all healing received a fixed amount. Give that a buff, and now healing got an across-the-board nerf for PvP without any change in actual healing output, so PvErs get to keep their heals as is.

 

Allow trauma (not the PvP trauma debuff, the debuff applied by Sentinels low slash and the Slinger equivalent of it) to stack with previously applied traumas. This would allow players to make a choice on when to reduce healing output.

 

And get rid of Wandering Mend, or nerf it a bit, because it allows sorc healers to heal several target without any action on their parts, effectively letting them get more effective healing without actively focusing on it.

 

This is what I think they should do to fix healing for PvP, to be honest.

I definitely agree with this. I see a lot of PvP players advocating an across the board healing nerf, for example. This sounds good on paper in the context of the PvP meta, but it would make PvE-focused players lives' miserable because the bosses and trash sure aren't going to be doing less damage! We already have some abilities that function differently in PvP than in PvE. I don't see why we can't add more abilities to that list as well as adjust damage and healing output in warzones exclusively as well.

 

Yea I am tired of pve being punished because of pvp. Everytime the pvp players start asking for a nerf it hurts pve but they don't care as long as they get what they want. The bosses aren't being nerf but according to some pvp players who cares about pve as long as they get want they want. They need to separate these abilities to make it fair for both sides.

Every time someone enters PvP, they get a "PvP Trauma" debuff that drops all healing received a fixed amount. Give that a buff, and now healing got an across-the-board nerf for PvP without any change in actual healing output, so PvErs get to keep their heals as is.

 

Allow trauma (not the PvP trauma debuff, the debuff applied by Sentinels low slash and the Slinger equivalent of it) to stack with previously applied traumas. This would allow players to make a choice on when to reduce healing output.

 

And get rid of Wandering Mend, or nerf it a bit, because it allows sorc healers to heal several target without any action on their parts, effectively letting them get more effective healing without actively focusing on it.

 

This is what I think they should do to fix healing for PvP, to be honest.

Not a bad idea at all. I support!

Every time someone enters PvP, they get a "PvP Trauma" debuff that drops all healing received a fixed amount. Give that a buff, and now healing got an across-the-board nerf for PvP without any change in actual healing output, so PvErs get to keep their heals as is.

 

Allow trauma (not the PvP trauma debuff, the debuff applied by Sentinels low slash and the Slinger equivalent of it) to stack with previously applied traumas. This would allow players to make a choice on when to reduce healing output.

 

And get rid of Wandering Mend, or nerf it a bit, because it allows sorc healers to heal several target without any action on their parts, effectively letting them get more effective healing without actively focusing on it.

 

This is what I think they should do to fix healing for PvP, to be honest.

 

 

And what about the pve aspect that the healers use that for in operations and their healing or do they count? I don't heal on my sorceress or sage but I know those that do and that ability helps them in tight situations in an operation.

Edited June 8, 2017 by casirabit

And what about the pve aspect that the healers use that for in operations and their healing or do they count? I don't heal on my sorceress or sage but I know those that do and that ability helps them in tight situations in an operation.

 

My primary problem is that it provides Sages a no-effort burst heal. So when their ally is being focused in PvP, or when an Ops group hits a burst phase with a boss, Mandos and Scoundrels have to actively manage their resources and targetting through the burst, while WM will burst heal four people instantly when they take the damage, while the Sage can continue using other heals. That aspect of it needs a nerf. It behaves like a DoT in its fire and forget nature, but the burst heal is much larger than a DoT.

 

The nerf is kinda warranted for PvE and PvP both, though the magnitude of the nerf is not something I'll claim to be an expert in. Either cause it to drain resources a bit, or reduce the magnitude of the burst heal it gives.

 

That change isn't a purely PvP change, Sages outperform the other healers in PvE too. It's just the across-the-board-healer changes that'll have to be kept PvP specific, to prevent bosses from murdering every tank in existence.

I definitely agree with this. I see a lot of PvP players advocating an across the board healing nerf, for example. This sounds good on paper in the context of the PvP meta, but it would make PvE-focused players lives' miserable because the bosses and trash sure aren't going to be doing less damage! We already have some abilities that function differently in PvP than in PvE. I don't see why we can't add more abilities to that list as well as adjust damage and healing output in warzones exclusively as well.

 

Ever heard of healing trauma debuff? It applies on in WZs.. It is not remotely new concept to separate between healing levels required in PvP and PvE.

Ever heard of healing trauma debuff? It applies on in WZs.. It is not remotely new concept to separate between healing levels required in PvP and PvE.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the trauma debuff. I'm more talking about the actual effects of various healing abilities and the utilities that affect them. Wandering Mend is a good example that's already being discussed in the posts above this one.

My primary problem is that it provides Sages a no-effort burst heal. So when their ally is being focused in PvP, or when an Ops group hits a burst phase with a boss, Mandos and Scoundrels have to actively manage their resources and targetting through the burst, while WM will burst heal four people instantly when they take the damage, while the Sage can continue using other heals. That aspect of it needs a nerf. It behaves like a DoT in its fire and forget nature, but the burst heal is much larger than a DoT.

 

The nerf is kinda warranted for PvE and PvP both, though the magnitude of the nerf is not something I'll claim to be an expert in. Either cause it to drain resources a bit, or reduce the magnitude of the burst heal it gives.

 

That change isn't a purely PvP change, Sages outperform the other healers in PvE too. It's just the across-the-board-healer changes that'll have to be kept PvP specific, to prevent bosses from murdering every tank in existence.

 

The thing is: Wandering/Roaming Mend already IS a big Force hog, and it arrived in the game at the same time that a significant nerf to Salvation/Revivication was introduced. So yes, WM is powerful, but it's really not spam-able.

My primary problem is that it provides Sages a no-effort burst heal. So when their ally is being focused in PvP, or when an Ops group hits a burst phase with a boss, Mandos and Scoundrels have to actively manage their resources and targetting through the burst, while WM will burst heal four people instantly when they take the damage, while the Sage can continue using other heals. That aspect of it needs a nerf. It behaves like a DoT in its fire and forget nature, but the burst heal is much larger than a DoT.

 

The nerf is kinda warranted for PvE and PvP both, though the magnitude of the nerf is not something I'll claim to be an expert in. Either cause it to drain resources a bit, or reduce the magnitude of the burst heal it gives.

 

That change isn't a purely PvP change, Sages outperform the other healers in PvE too. It's just the across-the-board-healer changes that'll have to be kept PvP specific, to prevent bosses from murdering every tank in existence.

 

Except energy managment isn't really an issue Operative or Merc and you are exaggerating how hard it is too you know heal proactively. Honeslty I find Merc and Op far more trivial than sorc. Roaming mend is fine in raids and only Merc really could use a slight HPS buff but that's whatevs.

Edited June 8, 2017 by FerkWork

List looks fair. Although I was hoping for something Deception too, it's not in as dire need of change like the classes that ARE on the list. Now I wish I put more time into thinking Hatred changes.

when you are thinking of the changes you are going to make , can you get someone to duel a merc using a guardian or jugg ? when you do this you will see how much merc needs his root back from rocket punch , as a ranged DPS mercs need to keep away from melee classes and the root we had was invaluable to us , snipers have skills that slow a target or root them but mercs dont seem to have any that work , as guardians or juggs can simple null the effect , maybe its guardians and juggs who need a nerf in this department .

As far as Pyro PTs go, they really just need better survivability. Almost every DPS spec has some sort of AOE damage reduction, but Pyro PTs lack that, making them very disadvantaged in most fights in this game. I would like to see some sort of buff to its defensives. Maybe tie something to its threat drop (sonic missile) kind of like Vengeance Juggs, Hatred Assassins, Adavanced Prototype PTs, Sorcs, DPS mercs, etc. Maybe buff Kolto Overload and make it like the Mercenary's Kolto Surge utility and buff it to 70% of health. Buffs to its defensives would make it more viable in Nightmare content.

I'm actually surprised to see Seer Sage / Corruption Sorc on the list, but seeing as how they are being re-jiggered for negative dispatchment, here are some of my suggestions: (I'll use Sage terminology for consistency.)

 

As a general rule: Seer Sage was just about perfect in 3.3. So a lot of these suggestions are inspired by that.

 

1. Include the damage absorption of all Force Armors in the Combat Log of the FA caster. It currently does not appear there, which causes it to be undervalued (or worse--ignored) by many healers who look at parser numbers.
   
2. Healing Trance should only remove one stack of Soothing Protection instead of four (one for each tick). I've already reported this as a bug. I sincerely HOPE it is not intended.
   
3. Or ... even better ... move Soothing Protection off of Force Armor and put it on Vindicate. This way FA is no longer a danger during "healing this player hurts them" mechanics, and Vindicate doesn't represent a full GCD of no healing or damage output at all. (IIRC, one of the PTS builds at the time had a small heal on Vindicate but it was removed.)
   
4. An alternative to adding a heal to Vindicate is to take it off the GCD and give it a separate one-GCD cooldown like it had in 3.3 to pre-4.0 ... and make an across-the-board reduction in healing output to compensate. This is actually both a buff and a nerf to the class, because it makes the class trickier to play--so a buff if you're good and a nerf if you're not.
   
5. When Salvation consumes Resplendence stacks, reduce the Force cost of that Salvation by the same amount as what would be recovered by using Vindicate+Resplendence (currently 5 points per stack). This effect was in play during 3.3+ and was taken out in 4.0 and beyond.
   

 

Most of those changes to the way the class is played also act as buffs. If the intent of the changes is to reduce healing output, then simply do an across-the-board reduction in healing output afterwards to the desired level.

with lightening and marksman being left out i wonder if instead of buffing the ones listed, everything is getting nerfed down to that level.

Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!!

 

Keith---

 

Im sorry but Lightning should be prioritized over several of those listed. absolutely disappointed. i wish you the best Keith at fixing so many bad decisions in the game and welcome aboard. BUT i have subbed. Done with this game.

The priorities are sorc heal, mercs arsenal and pyro PT.

 

not lightning. lightning will be easy to buff after, just a damage augment. (like Marksman)

 

but the 3 others specs cited are broken.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Thaladan

When I left the game years ago Merc was horribly underpowered.I come back 2 months ago and they are op as f.

In warzones they are just too much.

My Kin Sage on the other hand is just unplayable in pvp,if I'm alive after 10s I'm amazed.It's so squishy it's unbelievable.I think Sage needs a lot of love.

Keith, question for you. Are these changes going to go on the PTS first and give players the ability to test the changes prior to it going live and if so how long will the PTS be tested for before going live with any changes made?

Dummy parse stats, sorting by average from a 2.5 mil dummy, anything lower is too low for pve. (Maybe a lower one for burst potential in pvp.)

But 2.5 mil bottom specs: Serenity / Hatred

Concentration / Fury

Sharpshooter / Marksmanship

Plasmatech / Pyrotech

Balance / Madness

Top specs, lethality, virulence, IO, engineering.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/stats

1500 dps between the Average Lethality and Average Madness... o.O

 

People keep saying mercs are so op. I guess I haven't really seen it, Dmg wise, that's snipers, which also have an annoying amount of dcds. I do think a merc dcds needs to come down though, or remove one.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Krazhez

with lightening and marksman being left out i wonder if instead of buffing the ones listed, everything is getting nerfed down to that level.

That's something I've been thinking about. Everything being nerfed down to the lowest common denominator: Telekinesis Sage and Sharpshooter Gunslinger; similarly on healing side. Looking over the combat statistics from a few Ops, it seems clear that this is going to make the Ops harder for groups to complete; the impact will not be trivial. The Enrage timer mechanism will clearly move the line separating "doable" vs. "non-doable" Ops for many players, groups and guilds across difficulty levels. This will also have several other cascading negative effects:

 

 

1. 
    
   
2. Increased difficulty in obtaining end-game gear. "More difficult to do Ops" translates into "more difficult to get 236 and 242 gear." 248 gear is already nightmarishly difficult to get through Ops.
    
    
   
3. Decrease in interest in doing Operations. If players can't get gear to do them and their DPS and healing is decreased making it harder to finish Ops, players will be less likely to attempt Ops. If anything, we need more people doing end-game activities, not less.
    
    
   
4. Decrease in interest in doing PvP. Currently players are incentivized to do PvP to get UC that can be used for upgrading gear. If they stop doing Ops, they're also more likely to withdraw from PvP. Some UC-farmers who might go afk in PvP not withstanding, the increased influx of players into PvP has been a good thing. It should be encouraged, not killed through nerfing. Again, we need more people doing end-game activities, not less.
    
    
   
5. Decreased activity of all kind. Uprisings, FlashPoints and KotFE and KotET will become more difficult, frustrating and demoralizing to attempt for players in VM and MM as the DPS and healing of groups falls.
    
    
   
6. SM activities will suffer too. As the DPS and healing reduction will cross all class levels (1 to 70) and armor ratings (1 to 248,) all activities in the game that involve fighting will take longer. This will be true of the nerfed character classes and all group activities.
    
    
   
7. There are PvP scenarios (entire Voidstar Map for example) where it will either become more difficult to win back objectives or to gain any objectives at all; the DPS and healing will be down but the health pools remain the same. Add the lack of match-making (compositions of opposing teams are not similar in terms of roles) and some matches will become even more lop-sided or devolve into stalemates.
    
    
   
8. Conquest activities will be impacted too as it will take longer and become more difficult to complete the MM FPs and their hidden bosses, to kill the Commanders, 25 Champions or 250 mobs not to mention PvP and other group activities. These are the kind of activities that will see "last straw" effect; beyond a point, small increases in effort will make a big difference in player willingness to participate. Large, disciplined guilds will be able to ride through these changes, but others dependent on volunteer participation in Conquest will suffer.
    
    
   
9. Increased fighting time (across all mob difficulty levels from Weak to Champion) will mean that increased premium will be placed on Stealth classes. The recently-introduced incentive of trash mobs providing CXP will be defeated as it becomes devalued. (More effort required now to receive the same reward.) Stealth classes and skipping of fights will become more attractive in solo and some group activities. Already there are many cases where groups skip even Champion mobs as the CXP reward is considered not worth it. (There's that one Champion no one fights in Hammer Station, multiple Champions that are skipped in Cademimu.)
    
   

 

Class balance has to consider both PvE and PvP. Some of the challenges can be tackled by creating separate PvP and PvE versions of some, carefully chosen skills. Ideally, it is treated like microsurgery, not like bulldozing. It should also tackle the biggest problems first; at least to the extent of making them smaller problems if eliminating them altogether is not immediately feasible. Picking Disciplines at random and inflicting blunt-force trauma on them is no way to do class balance.

 

There has been a recent positive trend in the management of this game; at least many of us on the forums believe so. So far all such positive evaluations of the new direction have been based solely on "talk." What we don't want to see happen is that the trend is limited to "talk." We don't want to see a failure to "walk the talk." I already see a "Thrill of the Hunt," "RNG is exciting" level of waving away of player concerns when it comes to the selection of Disciplines for the July action. Honeymoons last only for a short time and goodwill is far too easy to lose.

Edited June 8, 2017 by mike_carton

Not a bad idea at all. I support!

 

TUX, if WE could just 'streamline" our Classes, instead of Nerfing, them that would work, if done right hell, i'll talk to EA this weekend about if people here won't listen, but should.

 

TUX, you know very well as iI do that Nerfing as far back as SWG and even for some of us before then, usually made things a Lot worse. It definitely happened here with SWTOR, where our Classes got Nerfed too much, and then the Classes became un-usable, and for most people those Classes are un-playable now unless some people just Spam the only 1 good Dps attack or 2.

 

Streamlining other Classes to the ones that some feel may be overpowered is the way to go, by Streamlining those other Classes by make their Defensive skills Healing skills that some Classes should have to compete with others, along with the other Classes having better DPS as well, so we can all compete. I'm willing to go over to Bioware Austin and give a Detailed look into what Streamlining really involves, though right now i'm trying to get care for my Mother in a Nursing home, and my own physical problem.

 

I am more than willing to show EA Bioware Austin, what Streamlining involves, as i'm sure a lot of people want to know what i'm talking about.

Edited June 8, 2017 by MandFlurry

Balance is relative though, some specs like lightning and vigi gardian only seem underpowered because the other classes are ridiculous atm. If they tone down the god mode ridiculousness of some of the other classes, then it makes sense to leave other classes alone (atleast as a start, just to see how they perform)

 

I think its better to tone down god mode classes first and then see where that leaves you. If lightning and other specs still aren't up to snuff, then address them first.

 

Fix the blatant OPness first then make tweaks from there.

but ok - compare the other dummys:

 

1.5 mio: flopclass: plasmatech -11% topclass lethaliy +6,88 - difference ~ 18%

2.5 mio: flopclass: madness sorc -7,55 topclass lethality: +8,41 - difference ~17%

4mio: flopclass: lighning sorc: - 19% (!!!) - topclass watchman +11 % - difference ~30%.

 

The positive and negative variance percentages are calculated at Parsely from a middle value that is chosen as being 0%. So, those percentages don't completely reflect the difference in performance between various Disciplines, neither in PvE nor in 1-on-1 PvP scenarios. Nor can they be used to compare two Disciplines. They can only be used to compare a Discipline to the possibly hypothetical median Discipline. The actual, effective differences that players experience are worse.

 

Using the same examples as above and using Imperial Disciplines and average values:

 

 

• 1.5 Million: Top Discipline: Lethality @ 9631.41 DPS. Bottom Discipline: Pyrotech @ 7997.77. Difference: (9631.41 - 7997.77) / 7997.77 = 20.4%
   
   
  
• 2.5 Million: Top Discipline: Lethality @ 9908.85 DPS. Bottom Discipline: Madness @ 8450.17. Difference: (9908.85 - 8450.17) / 8450.17 = 17.3%
   
   
  
• 4.0 Million: Top Discipline: Annihilation @ 10069.94 DPS. Bottom Discipline: Lightning @ 7284.43. Difference: (10069.94 - 7284.43) / 7284.43 = 38.2%
  

 

The above method of calculation produces results that resemble what I'm seeing in HM Ops. The difference in performance between Gunnery Commandos and Telekinesis Sages is enough to drive one to despair.

all I want from july class balance is to bring this "difference" more close together. I don't now whats possible - 2% ? 5% ? - but not ~~20% that is just to much.

 

This would be the first objective of any rational class balancing exercise.