Are you seriously saying that Soa HM is similar to Revan HM in difficulty?

This is an issue still. Rav and Tos have HM but never got a NiM version so they are tuned harder, specifically on certain bosses. I think they should be rewarded better than EV and KP HM. I already felt that way before 5.0 though so that's not a new issue. Personally I would prefer that the easier bosses in Rav and Tos should be tuned up a bit and have them count as NiM content, but that's just my feeling on it.

I agree with most of your points you have made. Except for this one.

 

EV/KP should most certainly drop gear. It should not, however, drop gear that is obtainable at harder difficulties in other ops though.

 

The issue isn't a matter of elitism in not wanting EV/KP to provide certain pieces. It's about the game's incentives for playing. For example, lets say EV HM dropped a piece of gear that was also obtainable from HM ToS. This creates a lowered incentive to do ToS. This, in terns, creates a lull in the pool of players willing to do ToS.

 

Let me put it another way: Back in 4.0, one of the hardest pieces of gear to get was the offhand token. It only dropped off final bosses, unlike other pieces which were pretty varied between EV and KP alone. Because of this scarcity, I ventured to do those operations that dropped the offhand more often than I would have had they not dropped that piece. In fact, I may not have even attempted to do them had any other easier fights dropped that piece.

 

So, no, it's not a matter of elitism. It's about the game's longevity and incentivizing players to try content out of the comfort zone.

100% perfect

I agree with most of your points you have made. Except for this one.

 

EV/KP should most certainly drop gear. It should not, however, drop gear that is obtainable at harder difficulties in other ops though.

 

The issue isn't a matter of elitism in not wanting EV/KP to provide certain pieces. It's about the game's incentives for playing. For example, lets say EV HM dropped a piece of gear that was also obtainable from HM ToS. This creates a lowered incentive to do ToS. This, in terns, creates a lull in the pool of players willing to do ToS.

 

Let me put it another way: Back in 4.0, one of the hardest pieces of gear to get was the offhand token. It only dropped off final bosses, unlike other pieces which were pretty varied between EV and KP alone. Because of this scarcity, I ventured to do those operations that dropped the offhand more often than I would have had they not dropped that piece. In fact, I may not have even attempted to do them had any other easier fights dropped that piece.

 

 

So, no, it's not a matter of elitism. It's about the game's longevity and incentivizing players to try content out of the comfort zone.

Well, I'm not about forcing people to play content they don't want to. Like I said, I'd rather run harder ops with people willing/able to run them, and such people are readily available without gimping the easier ops. I also support distributing unassembled components in game types that aren't PvP, because I don't want to be forced to PvP to upgrade my gear. And there are constant complants on the forum and in the game (especially during DvL and when Forex and Pierce first came to 4.0) about PvEers messing up warzones.

Same deal. I don't want to run Ravagers with someone that's just chasing a gear piece and doesn't really want to do the op, and tbh isn't fit to do it. Let that guy get his gear in KP, and I'll take on Master+Blaster with people that are worthy of the op itself.

Why does anyone care so much about how 'easy' it is for other people to get gear through running certain ops? Why does anyone care if someone runs EV or KP HM to get gear? Anyone can run whatever ops they want to get ops gear. It's serious elitist nonsense!

I am absolutely thrilled that gearing is not going to be so reliant on RNG any longer. There's no NiM for EV or KP anymore, and no highlighted HM ops anymore, so you can't even get the top tier of gear by running those two operations anymore! You'll have to run NiM ops, grind a TON of PvP matches, or get lucky with tier 3/4 crates to get that gear! So who cares?!

The only issues I have with the proposed ops drops right now is the fact there's no listed top tier MH and OH drops from operations right now, and the fact that ToS and Rav don't have NiMs either (which leaves far fewer options to run to get NiM grade gear), which I'd love to see them fix.

Why does anyone care so much about how 'easy' it is for other people to get gear through running certain ops? Why does anyone care if someone runs EV or KP HM to get gear? Anyone can run whatever ops they want to get ops gear. It's serious elitist nonsense!

 

It's an epeen contest.

People who don't raid felt inferior to those who did because they had the highest level gear and non-raiders couldn't get it. This is what brought highlighted hardmode into existence.

Then it became the other way... the hardcore elite raiders that are actually left are butthurt that casual endgame raiders (and anyone who wanted to run EV/KP in it's easymode state on highlighted weeks) got the best gear in the game.

My solution: Make all gear mean nothing then everyone gets butthurt Of course, I am being facetious.

Instead of hating the common enemy (Bioware)... we all hate each other. And we got the mess that was GC. So we started hating BW and we are getting what seems to be the best mix of both.

But to answer your question. It's all about epeen, man.

I agree with most of your points you have made. Except for this one.

 

EV/KP should most certainly drop gear. It should not, however, drop gear that is obtainable at harder difficulties in other ops though.

 

The issue isn't a matter of elitism in not wanting EV/KP to provide certain pieces. It's about the game's incentives for playing. For example, lets say EV HM dropped a piece of gear that was also obtainable from HM ToS. This creates a lowered incentive to do ToS. This, in terns, creates a lull in the pool of players willing to do ToS.

 

Let me put it another way: Back in 4.0, one of the hardest pieces of gear to get was the offhand token. It only dropped off final bosses, unlike other pieces which were pretty varied between EV and KP alone. Because of this scarcity, I ventured to do those operations that dropped the offhand more often than I would have had they not dropped that piece. In fact, I may not have even attempted to do them had any other easier fights dropped that piece.

 

So, no, it's not a matter of elitism. It's about the game's longevity and incentivizing players to try content out of the comfort zone.

I couldn't figure out a way to say this. Thank you Soul of Eloquence. ;D

Why does anyone care so much about how 'easy' it is for other people to get gear through running certain ops? Why does anyone care if someone runs EV or KP HM to get gear? Anyone can run whatever ops they want to get ops gear. It's serious elitist nonsense!

 

I am absolutely thrilled that gearing is not going to be so reliant on RNG any longer. There's no NiM for EV or KP anymore, and no highlighted HM ops anymore, so you can't even get the top tier of gear by running those two operations anymore! You'll have to run NiM ops, grind a TON of PvP matches, or get lucky with tier 3/4 crates to get that gear! So who cares?!

 

The only issues I have with the proposed ops drops right now is the fact there's no listed top tier MH and OH drops from operations right now, and the fact that ToS and Rav don't have NiMs either (which leaves far fewer options to run to get NiM grade gear), which I'd love to see them fix.

Where do you guys keep jumping to conclusions that everyone who wants to shut down the EV KP farm is elitist? You don't think everyone, including ourselves, farms EV KP HM?

Where do you guys keep jumping to conclusions that everyone who wants to shut down the EV KP farm is elitist? You don't think everyone, including ourselves, farms EV KP HM?

What a good question! Hmm, I wonder why we think it's an elitist complaint... let me think...

Oh yeah! It's because this was the OP (emphasis mine):

This seems to take us down the path like the 224 loot basket of paradise I agree they should drop loot but not the same as other Veteran operations you can't compare EV/KP to them not even to Golden Fury or Monolith every other operation in this mode is so much more demanding not just in some DPS checks but mechanics and I think it sends the wrong message making players think since we can do EV or KP Veteran we can do Monolith or any other demanding boss that has a real veteran feel to it.

And here was your exact response to the OP (again, emphasis mine):

From an elitist standpoint, I agree.

From a practical standpoint, decrease the number of boss drops in those two ops.

So YOU were the one who brought elitism into it explicitly!

Oh, and here's another post in a similar bent just on this thread alone (once more, emphasis mine):

EV/KP still should be capped at 236 in hm really, you can run the other ops in your 236 gear to get the 242s if you really want them, we know you do.

 

Having EV/KP drop gear rating pices on par with other ops really lessens the other ops which actually have mechanics.

 

/flameaway plebs

There's plenty of posts like this on the other threads discussing the 5.2 changes.

Does that answer your question? It's an elitist complaint, admitted by you as such in your own post.

Let's just remove EV/KP altogether. Anyone who can't solo HM ToS doesn't deserve to set foot in any op of any difficulty, let alone get anything out of it.

/s

I agree with Ascending Sky, why do so many of you care what people do with EV/KP? If it motivates a handful of players to try harder content, that's good. If people can't do even EV/KP or anything above those, they're not going to taint your pool of players to pug with in the harder stuff. Why does a non-raider in great gear rankle you so much? It's not like there is a limited supply of gear and they're taking all the gear away from you and your alts.

So they can finish a heroic really fast...that hurts you how? They can do some harder sub-Op content, like HM Flashpoints...that hurts you how? They can have their gear on while they hang out in the stronghold all day crafting...that hurts you how?

And if raiders thought it was a principle that filthy casuals or non-NiM quality people shouldn't be allowed to get the best gear in the game, why do you allow vanity runs? Yes, they're paying you exorbitant fees for a carry, but they didn't "earn" the gear, so they shouldn't be allowed to have access to it, under the exact same reasoning. At least Bioware isn't charging EV/KP runners 50mil just to get gear that still won't ever complete their set or even offer good cosmetic rewards.

Some people are not coordinated enough to do anything harder. Because they can't do anything harder, they get to do maybe one Op a week, depending on how the chips fall for EV/KP during the week. They don't have access to any other gear from all the other ops anyway. Since you're all so offended by non-NiM raiders having gear, this should be a positive thing.

Some people aren't in progression guilds, and don't have time to go through terrible pugs in accessing the harder content (terrible pugs can even make EV/KP take forever).

Some people can't get into progression teams because some teams demand they go through rigorous tryouts and parsing resumes just to be allowed to join in harder content.

Some people can't get into pugs because they don't have the chievos, or the gear, BECAUSE PUGS WON'T LET THEM JOIN TO GET THE CHIEVOS AND/OR GEAR.

Some pugs are demanding people have 230 gear to run SM Ops on Harbinger post 5.0. LIKE IT'S THE PLAYER'S FAULT THAT THEY AREN'T LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET FULL GEAR FROM THE RNG CRATES.

Some people can't get into a pug because they don't know fights, and watching much-better players on youtube or reading old, long guides doesn't prepare everyone for the actual experience.

Some people get chased out of anything harder than EV/KP because of the above reasons, and are subject to toxicity that ensures there will be one less player willing to become anything better (fewer players in the pug pool, just like pvp toxicity reduces the number of people who can make the queues pop faster).

By all means, let's make EV/KP less appetizing and further reduce the number of people willing to continue on through the harder ops. Color me convinced.

What a good question! Hmm, I wonder why we think it's an elitist complaint... let me think...

This wasn't and elitist post well wasn't intended to be but the point is why did they remove EV/KP Nightmare from the game is because they were not really Nightmare grade operations and the same can be said for the Veteran versions.

So what is wrong with these 2 operations dropping Tier 3 instead of the legendary versions while the other veteran modes drop the golds because of the difficulty of them it's a very valid argument that might be over looked you don't have to like it but calling people out being elitist and so on just shows who the real poison is in the game and it's not people making valid points.

This wasn't and elitist post well wasn't intended to be but the point is why did they remove EV/KP Nightmare from the game is because they were not really Nightmare grade operations and the same can be said for the Veteran versions.

 

So what is wrong with these 2 operations dropping Tier 3 instead of the legendary versions while the other veteran modes drop the golds because of the difficulty of them it's a very valid argument that might be over looked you don't have to like it but calling people out being elitist and so on just shows who the real poison is in the game and it's not people making valid points.

What's wrong with EV HM and KP HM dropping the same gear as other HM ops? You've yet to answer this question beyond some elitist nonsense. Let me quote your original post again:

This seems to take us down the path like the 224 loot basket of paradise I agree they should drop loot but not the same as other Veteran operations you can't compare EV/KP to them not even to Golden Fury or Monolith every other operation in this mode is so much more demanding not just in some DPS checks but mechanics and I think it sends the wrong message making players think since we can do EV or KP Veteran we can do Monolith or any other demanding boss that has a real veteran feel to it.

That is the WHOLE of your argument as to why EV and KP HM shouldn't drop the same loot as other HM ops. That does not bear any resemblance to a 'valid point'. It's you basically saying "I don't want people I think are scrubs who get gear from EV and KP HM to try to tackle other content because I think they're scrubs and therefore I don't want to interact with them."

I mean... listen to yourself. Wouldn't it be a GOOD thing for more people to attempt other ops content? Wouldn't that show EAWare that more people want operations in this game? I guarantee you, when people start getting gear through some operations, they get more interested in trying out other challenges, and other players are going to be more willing to let someone into their pug group if they have decent gear. And you want to DENY that? You want to TAKE THAT AWAY because you think some players don't 'deserve' gear as much as you? That's crazy! That's illogical! That's downright toxic!

Why does anyone care so much about how 'easy' it is for other people to get gear through running certain ops? Why does anyone care if someone runs EV or KP HM to get gear? Anyone can run whatever ops they want to get ops gear. It's serious elitist nonsense!

Do you remember?

"First boss in Blood Hunt HM can't be defeated without 224 gear!"

One group defeats first boss in Blood Hunt HM naked.

"Bu... bu... but you have voice chat and you know how to play!"

They're making the crate grind a lot more grindable in 5.2 and after you hit 300 in the grind you're going to be able to BiS set pieces by cheesing through KOTFE ch 2 10 times in an hour.

Explain to me again how EV/KP HMs are easier than that? Cause I clearly missed that part.

Basically, when it comes to the difficulty to item level ratio, you have no argument as long as command crates still exist.

Where there is a point that some others brought up, is that if there is a super rewarding loot piñata, that can drive traffic to the loot piñata to the point where other operations are difficult to round up enough people to do them.

That's not an issue of reward quality vs skill though, that's a loot rate vs time invested ratio. That they can tinker with by changing drop rates, or by doing things like increasing the HP of all the trash mobs by a big chunk.

They're making the crate grind a lot more grindable in 5.2 and after you hit 300 in the grind you're going to be able to BiS set pieces by cheesing through KOTFE ch 2 10 times in an hour.

 

Explain to me again how EV/KP HMs are easier than that? Cause I clearly missed that part.

Difference is 100% chance vs low chance you have with crates. Some of the players claim that they have opened 100+ tier 3 crates but never got 242 gear. Some of these players even claim that players who have decent luck with crates (for example I got 242 offhand from crate at around rank 210) are either lying or paid by BW.

For the record, I don't get any money from BW. In fact I have to keep paying ~35 euros / 3 months just to play the game.

This seems to take us down the path like the 224 loot basket of paradise.

No it doesn't. Because Tier 3 will no longer be the top tier. It will be like 220 gear. If you want your precious NIM gear you would still have to do your NIM ops. (or grind PvP, but the fact that you can get any gear that way without doing ANY OP doesnt seem to bother you for some reason:p).

People complaining Priority HM ops droping 224 is nothing new, we all seen that. People complaining regular HM ops drop 220 - that's a new low.

Is this the low you have to sink to? Literally cut and pasting various chunks of my posts together in the wrong order to try to make me say something I didn't? You're pathetic.

That was indeed an amazing way of twisting your words. He literally cut and pasted it to make it look like you said the opposite of what you actually said.

I've seen a lot of misinterpretations here, wilful or accidental, but this really goes beyond any of that.

wow, just wow.

That was indeed an amazing way of twisting your words. He literally cut and pasted it to make it look like you said the opposite of what you actually said.

 

I've seen a lot of misinterpretations here, wilful or accidental, but this really goes beyond any of that.

 

wow, just wow.

I suppose I should take it as a compliment in a way? I mean, obviously by resorting to out and out lying, fabrication, and intellectual dishonesty in editing my post to put words in my mouth and thinking he can get away with it, he's acknowledging he is incapable of making any legitimate points or rational counters to my arguments, right?

I mean, he's still pathetic and a liar, but I'm trying to look at the bright side!

I suppose I should take it as a compliment in a way? I mean, obviously by resorting to out and out lying, fabrication, and intellectual dishonesty in editing my post to put words in my mouth and thinking he can get away with it, he's acknowledging he is incapable of making any legitimate points or rational counters to my arguments, right?

 

I mean, he's still pathetic and a liar, but I'm trying to look at the bright side!

I must admit I am equally baffled and hope that it's a matter of him misreading what you meant rather than a wilful fabrication.

I must admit I am equally baffled and hope that it's a matter of him misreading what you meant rather than a wilful fabrication.

Oh no, that was deliberate. He went through the effort to cut and paste my post to make it say something different than what I actually said, then pulled an 'OMG HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT?!' reaction. I'm guessing he didn't think things through though, since anyone can see what my post actually said. Not a lot of brain power behind that one, I guess?

What a good question! Hmm, I wonder why we think it's an elitist complaint... let me think...

 

Oh yeah! It's because this was the OP (emphasis mine):

 

And here was your exact response to the OP (again, emphasis mine):

 

So YOU were the one who brought elitism into it explicitly!

 

Oh, and here's another post in a similar bent just on this thread alone (once more, emphasis mine):

 

There's plenty of posts like this on the other threads discussing the 5.2 changes.

 

Does that answer your question? It's an elitist complaint, admitted by you as such in your own post.

Fair enough! My error. Me and my big virtual mouth.