I am not allowed to talk to you, because if I do, I get banned from the Kaggath (according to Beni the Just). Edited November 10, 2014 by MarcheseAMM

Actually the Side Note I think is my main point about Star wars does not = DBZ. Its not power levels. Different people have different abilities and ever one should be judged based on that, and that alone honestly. In a straight fight between Luke and Revan who would win? truthfully I dont know they never fought. Between Revan and Saba? I dont know they never fought. All we can do is speculate.

Please keep this on topic. This is about the Kaggath Rulebook, not your personal morals on Star Wars. Thank you.

I am not allowed to talk to you, because if I do, I get banned from the Kaggath (according to Beni the Just).

 

Honestly I think every word I have said thus far since then is a banable offense, so would not be surprised if I was banned from the Kaggath.

 

Edit: though this is correct we have strayed pretty far off topic, Silenceo if we want to keep chit chatting about this we can just make another thread. Personally I dont care enough to make said thread, and besides no one would listen any way.

Edited November 10, 2014 by tunewalker

He said by the time he wakes you, you guys have another 4 hours, minimum.

 

But I'd be careful anyway.

 

Also Ant, no insulting Silenceo, anyone else just not him. My word is law.

He said by the time he wakes you, you guys have another 4 hours, minimum. But I'd be careful anyway.

 

Also Ant, no insulting Silenceo, anyone else just not him. My word is law.

I am not engaging back into the discussion. In fact, I have told them not to derail the thread anymore.

 

Yes ma'am.

Edited November 10, 2014 by MarcheseAMM

Honestly I think every word I have said thus far since then is a banable offense, so would not be surprised if I was banned from the Kaggath.

 

I do not understand why everyone is so quarrelsome lately... Though you and I feel similar about many subjects Tune. Unless you feel I am guilty of some of the charges as well? If so... *confronts subconscious self* Have at thee!

 

On that note, I think there should be a new rule. Essentially one that should combat flaming in the match threads, perhaps something as simple as "Posts with inflammatory remarks or insults will receive 0 points." How to enforce it though? That would be the tough part...

 

Side Note: Just go ahead and PM them to me if you really wish to rage at me, that way you can vent, and I can delete them after reading, not interrupting this holy thread.

Also Ant, no insulting Silenceo, anyone else just not him. My word is law.

 

I did not know you cared so much, Sel.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Silenceo

 

On that note, I think there should be a new rule. Essentially one that should combat flaming in the match threads, perhaps something as simple as "Posts with inflammatory remarks or insults will receive 0 points." How to enforce it though? That would be the tough part...

 

I was going to suggest something similar but more along the lines of "Post with insulting or disparaging remarks detract points from your faction. Upon reaching X amounts of such posts the offending parties are disqualified from participation in the Kaggath."

 

*surveys the area*

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Beniboybling

Vehicle suggestion for next Battle ground Kaggath.

 

Based on Alliance army, Rather then just 2 Light Vehicles and 1 Heavy instead have us pick.

 

1 Artillery

1 Armor (Combat Assault Vehicle or CAV)

1 Scout Unit (reconicance)

1 Ground Transport (Light Mechanical Vehicle or LMV bassically Mechanised Infantry)

and 1 Air Support (Sub-atmospheric Craft or SaC)

 

I feel it will give more variety and interest all in all.

 

Or if we went Empire Route it could be

 

1 Artillery

1 Armor (Combat Assault Vehicle)

1 Heavy Calvary

1 Mechanized Infantry

1 Scout Unit (reconasance)

1 Air Support (Sub-atmospheric Craft or SaC)

1 Command and Combat Support.

 

 

Example of the first would be

 

1. V-188 Penatrator (artillery

2. T2-B Tank Armor (combat Assault Vehicle)

3. Flare-S swoop (scout unit/ Recon)

4. HTT-26 Heavy Troop Transport

5. Tachyon Fast-attack airspeeder.

 

 

Example of the second type.

 

same as top but adds

1 heavy Clavary AT-PT

2. Heavy Tracker (command and combat support)

may allow change from HTT to HAVw5 (or 6) Juggernaught

Edited December 22, 2014 by tunewalker

Well, while it may initially appear to provide more variety, I feel what this actually does it force everyone to pick the same thing, as opposed to the current system which has people choose whatever best suits their faction.

 

And ultimately that's the issue, not everyone fits the formula, not everyone will be running a standard military faction.

Well, while it may initially appear to provide more variety, I feel what this actually does it force everyone to pick the same thing, as opposed to the current system which has people choose whatever best suits their faction.

 

And ultimately that's the issue, not everyone fits the formula, not everyone will be running a standard military faction.

 

Well With 1 Artillery, the type of Artillery is very different. Same with each of the others. You can have vehicle killers transports and everything. I think at least an increase in number of vehicle options is needed, because I highly doubt any one was able to get it set up the way they ACTUALLY wanted it. Every one was missing Key elements of their factions intended design. (for example I would loved to have had some Artillery and general Troop transports for both added Long range assault and more importantly rapid deployment of troops with out relying solely on flying ships.

The amount of "Deal with it's" you've given her fleet is frankly unprofessional and pretty aggravating. This is why we continuously ask you to actually let us publish faction lists...

 

Just my two cents, don't rage.

That seems a little unfair considering that:

 

 

1. I published faction lists in response to your request prior to the Semi Finals to serve this specific purpose.
    
    
   
2. That Lady’s choice/change of Acclamator and the complement it provided were made plain on said thread, and the numbers themselves verified by you, yourself and noted by others.
   

 

These figures were made fully available to all, including yourself, and carried across unchallenged in the preceding Kaggath between Lady and yourself. So these accusations are kinda dumb, just my two cents.

rule #10, I'll quote it again for you if you'd like. Unless you're willing to permit everyone else to take units with no info, use the little (poorly supported) info we have on them, and go wild, then accept that the Acclamator's fighter-carrying variant (if there is one) is not fit for use in this match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMo4-MTFQqI&t=0m6s

 

Seriously though, Wookieepedia at the time listed 156 fighters as its fighter complement, so I assumed it to be intrinsic to the original model, and retained its original features. Up until now I have stood by that assumption, considering as Wolf has pointed out, no other class of the Acclamator exists, it therefore seems unlikely that it would have undergone such extensive (and unnecessary) modification to make it a different class altogether.

 

But there is no longer any reason to speculate thanks to this new information.

The Nevoota Bee is basically what we've been discussing this whole time. It has one source (two if you count the SW insider article) and is (similarly to the Leveler) seemingly a one-off modification to the standard frame.

 

So Beni, can we then completely customize the layouts of our ships including major structural changes if we can find one half-baked source for something similar happening (so I could have made every SD in my fleet a copy of the Anakin Solo)? I again invoke rule #10

The Nevoota Bee Wookiee pages is listed as a good article, it is the definition of comprehensive information, and leaves very little room for speculation. I also checked up on the source and found the following from the EGW:

With troops deployed in scattered campaigns, many acted as mobile depot ships and commando carriers, and new roles were constantly found. For the Battle for Muunilinst, the assault ship Nevoota Bee was adapted as a starfighter carrier, her vehicle decks crammed with 156 V-19 warplanes.

 

--Taken from The Essential Guide to Warfare

The EGW doesn’t mention any other modifications, nor imply them as necessary. And the Wookiee is using the standard stats for the Acclamator on the Bee’s page. So I think it’s logical to assume that aside from its carrying capabilities, it is identical. The implication being that they merely removed some vehicles to make space.

Wait seeing the page for the Bee, the appearance was retconned so it's not able to carry Starfighters. Yes the Essential Guide to Warfare mentions it, but even still it has been retconned.

 

But still if allowed, see my previous post.

Wolf, I’m not sure where you got the idea from, but the Nevoota Bee’s existence as a starfighter carrier is the retcon.

 

Anyway I also found the following:

The Acclamator has berths for sixteen thousand infantry, eighty fighters or shuttles – usually LAAT transports – and eighty four armoured ground craft.

--Taken from The Essential Guide to Warfare

 

So it would appear that the Acclamator does indeed possess fighter carrying capabilities, as I say Silenceo, the Wookiee is reliable, but certainly not gospel. Anyway there remain issues surrounding adopting that variant:

 

 

1. The Bee variant is indeed the variant Lady wanted to choose, based on its carrying capabilities that were erroneously attached to the main model. So the vessel was approved without rule conflict.
    
    
   
2. This variant has already been used in the past Kaggath, so making a significant alteration now would invalidate the space verdict made there.
    
    
   
3. It’s ambiguous as to whether this unit is unique, or has been mass produced.
   

 

Bearing in mind that if we went with the standard Acclamator’s fighter capacity, the Republic Resistance’s fighter capacity would be reduced to 3,612.

 

P.S. @Silenceo, I would have approved that as just fine vessel, not sure what's wrong with it.

Fine then Beni, but also see my other post here.

 

Although I wouldn't say all Accalamators can do this, as it's noted they were designed for planetary invasions forces. The Nevoota and Leveler seeming to be the exceptions to the rule, as it wouldn't make much sense for there to be two starfighter carrying vessels in the GAR.

 

If there needs to be, I suggest that the Acclamators be one or the other. Either add more Starfighters and lessen the ground forces, or just keep them as strict planetary invasion vessels.

 

Because the RR really doesn't need another 156 more Starfighters for each vessels. When the Venators can hold 192 Starfighters X2 for a total of 384 fighters each + 36 more.

 

This again going back to, the Accalmators not needing to be starfighter carriers with Venators were designed as such.

 

So Beni, either she gets the 156 extra Starfighters and has less ground forces, or she just keeps the Acclamators the same. Because having both just doesn't seem possible with the way the ship is designed and it just doesn't seem that smart logistic wise.

 

Because then if one or 2 of the Accalmators are destroyed, not only does this wipe out a lot of Starfighters, but it's also going to destroy much of the ground force.

 

This is how I see it really.

That seems a little unfair considering that:

 

 

1. I published faction lists in response to your request prior to the Semi Finals to serve this specific purpose.
    
    
   
2. That Lady’s choice/change of Acclamator and the complement it provided were made plain on said thread, and the numbers themselves verified by you, yourself and noted by others.
   

 

These figures were made fully available to all, including yourself, and carried across unchallenged in the preceding Kaggath between Lady and yourself. So these accusations are kinda dumb, just my two cents.

The fact that I agree with the use of the Acclamator isn't the point. I'm perfectly happy with it's use, but others aren't so my point stands.

 

There have been many changes to her fleet, and a lot of them caused controversy and pushed the rules. Her original ship was almost 3 times as powerful as the rules dictated a capital ship could be, and I had to actually convince you to strip her of it? Let's not even go into the fact that her fleet gained a free Imperious without a single loss to her forces simply because you decided your math was better than anyone's logic. We picked 6 as the number of ships she should get because the idea was that 6 Venators in a fleet are worth as much as say 4 Venators and Viscount.

 

The fact you allowed an Imperious (a ship that she herself has argued could solo fleets, and that was supposedly a match for Executors) in without a single penalty to capital ship pool despite simply because of an Arbitrary number is yet more proof of my statement.

The fact that I agree with the use of the Acclamator isn't the point. I'm perfectly happy with it's use, but others aren't so my point stands.

 

There have been many changes to her fleet, and a lot of them caused controversy and pushed the rules. Her original ship was almost 3 times as powerful as the rules dictated a capital ship could be, and I had to actually convince you to strip her of it? Let's not even go into the fact that her fleet gained a free Imperious without a single loss to her forces simply because you decided your math was better than anyone's logic. We picked 6 as the number of ships she should get because the idea was that 6 Venators in a fleet are worth as much as say 4 Venators and Viscount.

 

The fact you allowed an Imperious (a ship that she herself has argued could solo fleets, and that was supposedly a match for Executors) in without a single penalty to capital ship pool despite simply because of an Arbitrary number is yet more proof of my statement.

Your point was that I failed to make this change clear, and give people an opportunity to dispute it, I did, and nobody did. I can't imagine what other action you expect me to have taken.

 

In terms of the Imperious, you failed to raise any of these points at the point of verdict Selenial, and in fact were content to allow these figures to pass. I explained my logic, and you made no complaint, nor did anyone else.

 

Fact is if you fail to make your grievances known, I can't address them, it's that simple.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

Fine then Beni, but also see my other post here.

The problem with that is that her forces are already planet side.

Honestly, I have to agree with Star. As far as my understanding goes, you cant just take the Acclamator's vehicles out and put fighters in instead. You need an actual launch systems, runways, real hangar bays etc. In this case we no longer have an Aclamator I with different contents, we have a Acclamator that was heavilly modified and this is obviously against the rules as, as Star pointed out any ISD 2 would be an Anikin Solo and every H-6 would be a Havoc if we allowed this.

Edited April 28, 2015 by raandomname

Your point was that I failed to make this change clear, and give people an opportunity to dispute it, I did, and nobody did. I can't imagine what other action you expect me to have taken.

 

In terms of the Imperious, you failed to raise any of these points at the point of verdict Selenial, and in fact were content to allow these figures to pass. I explained my logic, and you made no complaint, nor did anyone else.

 

Fact is if you fail to make your grievances known, I can't address them, it's that simple.

So she has just as many as if she hadn't picked a flagship.... Lolwut.

 

Meh, I can work with it.

In this case yes, which is why I recommended it. It may seem unfair, but remember we are just dealing with an SD here, a few hundred metres larger than the Venators.

 

At this point we'd been waiting over a week for her to actually find a ship that wasn't stupidly overpowered, so I wasn't exactly going to wait another week and neither were you.

 

You made your case pretty clearly, whether that was because you were approving a ship you don't actually know anything about, or because you really really wanted to get going doesn't matter...

 

Besides, is it really our place to point these things out to you? You're supposed to be running this thing...

Edited April 28, 2015 by Selenial

Honestly, I have to agree with Star. As far as my understanding goes, you cant just take the Acclamator's vehicles out and put fighters in instead. You need an actual launch systems, runways, real hangar bays etc. In this case we no longer have an Aclamator I with different contents, we have a Acclamator that was heavilly modified and this is obviously against the rules as, as Star pointed out any ISD 2 would be an Anikin Solo if we allowed this.

Pay attention to the quote however:

With troops deployed in scattered campaigns, many acted as mobile depot ships and commando carriers, and new roles were constantly found. For the Battle for Muunilinst, the assault ship Nevoota Bee was adapted as a starfighter carrier, her vehicle decks crammed with 156 V-19 warplanes.

 

--Taken from The Essential Guide to Warfare

The suggestion is that the vehicle decks were merely retrofitted to accomodate for fighters, using a preexisting space as opposed to creating a new one and therefore undergoing heavy modifications.

 

All they would need is a space (only TIEs require anything more in regards to launch systems and bays) and a hole to exit from, both of these facilities already existed, so again little extensive modification would have been required.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

Pay attention to the quote however:

The suggestion is that the vehicle decks were merely retrofitted to accomodate for fighters, using a preexisting space as opposed to creating a new one and therefore undergoing heavy modifications.

 

All they would need is a space (only TIEs require anything more in regards to launch systems and bays) and a hole to exit from, both of these facilities already existed, so again little extensive modification would have been required.

 

Trying not to bring up the fact Lady's Starfighters are much larger than V-19's, and that quote implies there was physically no more room....

Edited April 28, 2015 by Selenial

At this point we'd been waiting over a week for her to actually find a ship that wasn't stupidly overpowered, so I wasn't exactly going to wait another week and neither were you.

 

You made your case pretty clearly, whether that was because you were approving a ship you don't actually know anything about, or because you really really wanted to get going doesn't matter...

I would have, if it meant avoiding this current situation.

 

The point is that you can hardly blame me for your unwillingness to fulfill the purpose of the thread. If you don't voice your complaints, I won't hear them, nor do I possess omnipotence in any of my decisions.

Besides, is it really our place to point these things out to you? You're supposed to be running this thing...

Yes it is, that is the whole reason you request and I facilitated these threads in the first place.

 

Your whole critique is that I am making too many decisions by myself without running it through the committee first.

 

The thing about this democratic system you are proposing, is that it means that you guys are just as responsible for its function as me. Just as any elected official can't be held accountable if his electorate remain silent.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Beniboybling

I would have, if it meant avoiding this current situation.

 

The point is that you can hardly blame me for your unwillingness to fulfill the purpose of the thread. If you don't voice your complaints, I won't hear them, nor do I possess omnipotence in any of my decisions.

Yes it is, that is the whole reason you request and I facilitated these threads in the first place.

 

Your whole critique is that I am making too many decisions by myself without running it through the committee first.

 

The thing about this democratic system you are proposing, is that it means that you guys are just as responsible for its function as me. Just as any elected official can't be held accountable if his electorate remain silent.

 

If you want us to actually do this, then do what I started this argument asking and actually publish faction lists in the main thread. If Rayla wanted to add her Acclamator, we should have seen all her posts telling you exactly why she could get it. Since we didn't, all we saw was "Acclamator - Fighter carrying variant." And the only way we would have found the issues we would have now was going and individually checking the sources for each stat.

 

You can imagine how difficult that would be for each of us to do for 8 factions, but actually making your PM's public means we can see people's reasoning and sources for picking certain ships.

 

For Example, the Wookiee's inaccuracy on Hammerheads, I explained that to you fully in our PM's but had to argue for quite a while as to why I was giving it 5x the strength listed, and even then half the people popping in and out of the thread didn't see.

 

My proposed change would be that initially everyone PM's you their faction choices. You OK whatever you want to OK, then publish all relevant Private Messages in a spoiler tagged post, for people to look over when they have the time, and point out any possible issues.

 

Another example would be when Silenceo picked Trench, a lot of arguments were put forward that he shouldn't even be a Second in Command, when it was settled in private messages before the tournament. If people could have had a link to those PM's or that decision, bamn that's 5 pages saved.

I appreciate those suggestions Sel, doing faction creation via an open thread was something I wanted to avoid because it would be a logistical nightmare, but I think that is something I could more effectively implement in the future.

 

So thanks for that.