I can't seem to remember if it was from the Phoenix Cantina Q&A or someone PM'ing the community managers, but I do remember reading something that the devs are aware of it.

 

 

I will try to find the relevant information.

Supposedly the devs plan on nerfing dotsmash. The only questions are when and how.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7182345&postcount=49

Folks have suggested that the fix is as simple as making deadly saber usable only in Juyo form which would effectively kill dotsmash. We'll see if the devs agree.

As someone who likes to complain about rage, I just want to say that the recent changes went too far. ONE rage marauder alone was never a problem. A nuisance? Yes. So powerful that I felt like I was losing control while healing? No, of course not. The problem was when 3 of them would coordinate with each other, all jump into the same group of people, and then all smash at once. Rage was only unbalancing war zones when marauders travelled in packs.

I think the autocrit should be restored to its former state. To balance it out, put a buff on people who get hit by a critical smash which makes the next smash (from any source) do 40% less damage to them, last 5 seconds, and stack up to 2 times. This punishes the marauders travelling in packs but leaves the solo marauders alone.

Hi. I want to share with you my thoughts.

 

Give Prededation a Raidroup Clense.

The groups wishes often Preda because the 10% Melee and Range Defense.

But these 10% aren´t more worth than the Damage loss you get by using the Fury for Preda than for Berserk.

A Raidgroup Clense IS the Fury worth to use. And you or your Group can deside what is better, more damage or supporting the Healers with that. Also you loose, if you deside to take the fury for cleansing, some guaranteed Healings for the Group. So you have to make a decision. But this only together with:

 

This, please to all that is Holy this.

Get rid of the speed buff that Prededation gives and change it for a cleanse. The speed buff is almost always seen as a bad thing with the exception of 1 boss op fight. Most people it takes them by surprise and they either waste it or end up running past their target. This would make me very happy with the class and even give some PvP options when you get doted and left looking round hoping the healer isn't being ganked as there is nothing you can do about it.

For the rage I feel that smash needs to be considered a single target attack (so that the 30% AoE damage reduction doesn't reduce damage of a now single target attack). Also adding in a question about what our "AoE spec" is supposed to be. With the sentinel questions, they said that rage was the best AoE and burst spec, they said they wanted to get away from that, but now we have no AoE spec (for PvP anyways) and carnage burst is arguably better than rage's burst, so are we supposed to have an AoE spec at all or no? And is rage suppose to get any single target damage buffs to make it the unchallenged best burst spec for PvP?

See I read when Eric had mentioned all of that as well, I think that is the most confusing part. I have no idea what they're trying to do with the spec anymore if it's not suppose to be an AOE spec. I think they had mentioned that it was never suppose to be an AOE spec at all but "that boat had already sailed" per what Eric had posted in previous forums regarding the first round of representative questions. Because if you give it too much consistent damage it starts looking similar to carnage so how do they plan to keep it a high damage short burst spec (instead of consistent burst like carnage), keep it competitive in PVP, and make it more single target oriented?

I'm not complaining about rage being "nerfed", I would really just like to know specifically what it's suppose to be and how they plan to make changes in that direction. Because as changes are being made it seems to continue to be more unclear and the changes don't seem to be well thought out. I think a redesign would be more beneficial to us in the long run than taking things out and tweaking things here and there. I think they should just take smash completely out of the rotation and replace it with another single target high burst ability. That way the smash ability itself can be left as a filler aoe utility (which is useful in and of itself in pvp situations - doors/popping stealth/node interruption). I think it's a better ability than slash and that way they won't need to make changes for it to have a primary target if they were willing to do that.

Actually I really like that idea. Is it easy for them to do? No. But I think it would truly benefit the tree. I think the replacement ability for the tree would be a much cleaner adjustment/change. So I guess if others felt the same, the added question would be: Are there any thoughts regarding the combat team replacing the smash ability with another single target high burst ability so that we can continue to use the smash ability as a utility without continued "tweeking" (ie. forcing it to have a primary target etc).

This, please to all that is Holy this.

 

Get rid of the speed buff that Prededation gives and change it for a cleanse. The speed buff is almost always seen as a bad thing with the exception of 1 boss op fight. Most people it takes them by surprise and they either waste it or end up running past their target. This would make me very happy with the class and even give some PvP options when you get doted and left looking round hoping the healer isn't being ganked as there is nothing you can do about it.

Predation is a case of people don't know how to use it or don't use it, when it is really good as is and I would be really sad to lose it. I will use it on Dread Guard, Kephess, Dash'roode, Titan 6 (running to boss), Thrasher (for 50% knockup), Ops Chief, and Warlords. For Kephess and Dash'roode it is almost mandatory in our raid group, for Warlords I use it since it makes chasing Sunder so easy. A Carnage (Annihilation works too) Marauder is easily the most valuable member of your raid on Hateful Entity when you get them to Pred instead of Berserk off cooldown. Their DPS takes a slight hit but the speed and slight defense boost makes the already not that difficult fight so much easier.

Predation is a case of people don't know how to use it or don't use it, when it is really good as is and I would be really sad to lose it. I will use it on Dread Guard, Kephess, Dash'roode, Titan 6 (running to boss), Thrasher (for 50% knockup), Ops Chief, and Warlords. For Kephess and Dash'roode it is almost mandatory in our raid group, for Warlords I use it since it makes chasing Sunder so easy. A Carnage (Annihilation works too) Marauder is easily the most valuable member of your raid on Hateful Entity when you get them to Pred instead of Berserk off cooldown. Their DPS takes a slight hit but the speed and slight defense boost makes the already not that difficult fight so much easier.

I see there is a misunderstanding in my Idea.

I wantet to change the 10% Melee and Range Defense for a Raidgroup (PvP Group) cleanse. The speed buff should be as it is. But i see that this is not in my text. So i editet it.

Give Prededation a Raidroup Clense.

While the speed buff is nice and useful the groups wishes often Preda because the 10% Melee and Range Defense.

But these 10% aren´t more worth than the Damage loss you get by using the Fury for Preda than for Berserk.

A Raidgroup Clense instead these 10% Defense IS the Fury worth to use. And you or your Group can deside what is better, more damage or supporting the Healers with that. Also you loose, if you deside to take the fury for cleansing, some guaranteed Healings for the Group. So you have to make a decision. But this only together with:

 

Give back the Heals as they were before Patch 1.5

This would emphasize the Support Faktor of this Skill Tree.

I forgot 2 things i wantet to write here.

First ist that it makes me sad to see that here is so little interest in this thred. I think it´s important for our class.

A Carnage (Annihilation works too) Marauder is easily the most valuable member of your raid on Hateful Entity when you get them to Pred instead of Berserk off cooldown. Their DPS takes a slight hit but the speed and slight defense boost makes the already not that difficult fight so much easier.

Second is:

I tried it out on the OP Dummy. Maybe it isn´t much DPS loss in Carnage but in Anni it´s huge. You loose all your 100% crits of the bleedings. In numbers i was falling down ( with my equip and my personal skill to play) from 3500 DPS with using berserk to 3050 DPS while using no berserk. Additional there is a HPS loss about 50%

As i said.... maybe in Carnage it isn´t a problem but in Anni i use Preda only with pain for (in my opinion) useless situations.

Hello everyone! First, I want to thank those of you who submitted your ideas. They were quite helpful in determining whether the questions from several months ago are still relevant today.

As far as the carnage and annihilation questions, I believe the issues have not changed. Carnage needs a level of protection similar to Vengeance. While I do not agree with the ravage root being granted to Vengeance, I also don't believe we should blatantly ask for a Marauder version of unstoppable or ravage reset. It is easy to get lost in the issues concerning the damage and utility of a spec, but we have to remember to keep the flavor of each class intact as well. We don't want a situation where Carnage and Vengeance are different names for the same thing . Therefore, I am fine with presenting the case that Carnage damage is too easily countered.

I have seen some ideas surrounding Annihilation that I will include as an example to my question. I particularly like the idea of Pulverize granting an additional effect outside rupture reset. Remember, this is just part of the greater problem Annihilation has during switches and ramp up/down times in both PVE and PVP.

Now for the 3rd question. I have seen the complaints about smash and undying rage. Which do we want to focus on? I do believe the undying rage change was a bit heavy handed, as it severely cripples Annihilation self heals. Perhaps, it should be reverted back to the upfront 50% hp loss with a penalty to the healing received? Or should we focus on smash and question its future viability as the AOE spec? Perhaps a middle ground is required. For example, shockwaves originating from force crush have the unique ability to affect all targets.

Ideas? Opinions? Let's hear it!

Gudarz, I'd like for some buff options to be presented to the devs regarding the rage nerf. I've been playing a mara since launch at the highest ranked levels, so I am keenly aware of the prior nerfs to rage. I do agree that Rage in its current form is too strong. The group dominate buff had to go - an autocrit on all enemies is just too much damage going out. However, the tree needs some tweaks to remain viable for melee in general.

For one, I think force crush should be given the 1 extra tick back and the one extra stack of shockwave back. It should be 4 seconds of crush and slow. If we're becoming a single target burst spec, the one extra stack will also help tremendously.

Force choke building stacks was also nice for when we got clipped. But it was clumsy, used up our only "hard" (channeled) CC, and I agree with them taking it out. There are many small tweaks to the rage tree which can balance out the actual smash nerf. Force lash right now is quite useless - I wouldn't mind seeing a rework of that talent. For example, dual saber throw and vicious slash both deal (more) force damage.

I'm kind of torn here on one hand the nerf to undying rage seems out of sync with the proposed sniper/sorc buffs. Especially in the case of snipers who are getting a better dcd with zero drawbacks.

On the other hand rage is being made an impotent spec, that in PvP will offer nothing that carnage can't do better. The jugg questions may have some overlap here.

Both changes seem heavy handed now to me.

Seeing as the Guardians / Juggs can ask about the rage spec I think I would prefer to ask something about undying rage (although I wouldn't want to assume they are so possibly asking the guardian rep if he plans to ask a question on the rage / focus spec may be a good idea). Especially with all these other classes getting big buffs to their "biggest" defensive cool downs I think keeping ours in line with the others may be good. The main problem I find with undying rage is that we get penalized for using it while none of the other classes do. These were my 2 ideas on how to change the ability to either reduce or eliminate the penalty.

The first is to change it back to the way it used to be (make the health loss up front), but keep it on a 2 minute cool down and take away all set bonuses and buffs to it (with the exception of maybe the rage tree's cool down reduction because other talents for other classes reduce the cool down of some of their big cool downs). This would then keep it at a powerful cool down but not penalize us or our healers for using it, keep the ability in line with other powerful cool downs like the sorc bubble, and free up a set bonus slot for PvP that could be used for some other cool set bonus.

 

The second change would be to keep everything the way it currently is, but to double our health pool while undying rage is up (Note, this means our maximum health, not our current health). This would allow healers to be able to heal us to maximum HP when the health is lost rather than the current 50%. What this would do is effectively make it a 50% heal debuff while undying rage is active IF we have a healer present and healing us, but when there is no healer present the ability is essentially not changed at all. They can put us up to 200% HP, but after the ability is over the extra HP goes away which would put us back down to 100% HP.

Hello everyone! First, I want to thank those of you who submitted your ideas. They were quite helpful in determining whether the questions from several months ago are still relevant today.

 

As far as the carnage and annihilation questions, I believe the issues have not changed. Carnage needs a level of protection similar to Vengeance. While I do not agree with the ravage root being granted to Vengeance, I also don't believe we should blatantly ask for a Marauder version of unstoppable or ravage reset. It is easy to get lost in the issues concerning the damage and utility of a spec, but we have to remember to keep the flavor of each class intact as well. We don't want a situation where Carnage and Vengeance are different names for the same thing . Therefore, I am fine with presenting the case that Carnage damage is too easily countered.

 

I have seen some ideas surrounding Annihilation that I will include as an example to my question. I particularly like the idea of Pulverize granting an additional effect outside rupture reset. Remember, this is just part of the greater problem Annihilation has during switches and ramp up/down times in both PVE and PVP.

 

Now for the 3rd question. I have seen the complaints about smash and undying rage. Which do we want to focus on? I do believe the undying rage change was a bit heavy handed, as it severely cripples Annihilation self heals. Perhaps, it should be reverted back to the upfront 50% hp loss with a penalty to the healing received? Or should we focus on smash and question its future viability as the AOE spec? Perhaps a middle ground is required. For example, shockwaves originating from force crush have the unique ability to affect all targets.

 

Ideas? Opinions? Let's hear it!

I think the future of rage needs to be addressed as they continue to tell us it wasn't intended as an aoe spec and yet they continue to poke holes all over it. I defer to my other suggestion that it would be a much cleaner fix to replace the ability with another single target burst ability and leave the ability smash intact. I don't think they need to make changes to the smash ability at all. Their changes constantly cause them to need to make more changes to the ability than actually making more clean and efficient changes that would actually correct the problem and design the tree as intended. The way that it works can be completely the same (just a different ability) instead of continuing to ruin a perfectly fine utility move like smash.

Seeing as the Guardians / Juggs can ask about the rage spec I think I would prefer to ask something about undying rage (although I wouldn't want to assume they are so possibly asking the guardian rep if he plans to ask a question on the rage / focus spec may be a good idea). Especially with all these other classes getting big buffs to their "biggest" defensive cool downs I think keeping ours in line with the others may be good. The main problem I find with undying rage is that we get penalized for using it while none of the other classes do. These were my 2 ideas on how to change the ability to either reduce or eliminate the penalty.

I think another alternative is to change undying rage back to the way it originally worked and then make it so that you can't be healed through the duration of the ability.

I think another alternative is to change undying rage back to the way it originally worked and then make it so that you can't be healed through the duration of the ability.

That could work as well, although the only problem I have with it is that we get a healing debuff when we use it which penalizes us where as other classes don't have a penalty for using a big cool down. Sorc's bubble and a Merc / PT's kolto overload doesn't give a healing debuff, so I don't see why we should get penalized for using undying rage. This is also the same problem I have with the second option that I posted which is why I preferred the first option I posted, but this here is another viable option I think.

That could work as well, although the only problem I have with it is that we get a healing debuff when we use it which penalizes us where as other classes don't have a penalty for using a big cool down. Sorc's bubble and a Merc / PT's kolto overload doesn't give a healing debuff, so I don't see why we should get penalized for using undying rage. This is also the same problem I have with the second option that I posted which is why I preferred the first option I posted, but this here is another viable option I think.

But Sorc bubble and Kolto Overload both have 3 minute cooldowns which mean that they get substantially less use then undying rage.

Annihilation spec needs its self-healing back, and about a 5% DPS buff. It's currently not the highest parsing marauder spec, and it is a very weak PVP spec.

Removing the undying rage nerf would be nice, since sniper is getting a version of undying rage (evasion).

But Sorc bubble and Kolto Overload both have 3 minute cooldowns which mean that they get substantially less use then undying rage.

That's why I would say to remove any cool down reductions to it so that it is a flat 2 minutes all the time. Obviously there is a 1 minute difference in the cool downs between sorc bubble / kolto overload and undying rage, but ours only last for 4 - 5 seconds depending on set bonuses where as the others last 10 seconds or more (can't remember the length of kolto overload). So in terms of total length of protection they have it for longer and get no penalty. I'm not saying that's a good reason as to why ours has a shorter cool down but it is true. I would be fine if they increased the CD on undying rage a little more and gave us the first option I suggested if everyone thinks that would be more balanced.

That could work as well, although the only problem I have with it is that we get a healing debuff when we use it which penalizes us where as other classes don't have a penalty for using a big cool down. Sorc's bubble and a Merc / PT's kolto overload doesn't give a healing debuff, so I don't see why we should get penalized for using undying rage. This is also the same problem I have with the second option that I posted which is why I preferred the first option I posted, but this here is another viable option I think.

I believe the reason they made it that was because we could easily get healed practically to full in it's original form (when paired with a healer). I don't believe it was intended to be a penalty although I do understand what you're saying. It hurts especially during PVE instances and wastes a healer's energy during PVP/PVE.

I have seen some ideas surrounding Annihilation that I will include as an example to my question. I particularly like the idea of Pulverize granting an additional effect outside rupture reset. Remember, this is just part of the greater problem Annihilation has during switches and ramp up/down times in both PVE and PVP

In terms of annihilation I really do think it would help to make dots from deadly saber (one ability) uncleaseable without making it "OP". It would also help in keeping a small amount of consistent damage. Part of what makes ramp up times frustrating is due to the fact that when healers/sins/ops cleanse then we're forced to ramp back up. But with the dots from one ability being uncleaseable (as mentioned above) there would always be a consistent running dots on the target (while not an overwhelming amount) that can continue to keep pressure on targets in PVP situations. I think this change would be a simpler fix without being completely overpowered.

Kolto overload lasts 8 seconds but stops healing once a BH gets over 35% health. Still buys them 8 extra seconds of life and keeps them from getting hit with executes.

Evasion changes means that snipers get 3 seconds where they can't be hurt. Snipers can get 4 seconds of evasion with the right set bonus and another second if specced into lethality for a grand total of 5 seconds. So, possible god mode for 5 seconds with no penalty every minute. And since they have a 100% chance to resist both force and tech damage, they are also immune to stuns...They can get some nice healing love during this...Penalty free.

Undying rage changes are looking pretty stupid now...

I think the future of rage needs to be addressed as they continue to tell us it wasn't intended as an aoe spec and yet they continue to poke holes all over it. I defer to my other suggestion that it would be a much cleaner fix to replace the ability with another single target burst ability and leave the ability of smash intact. I don't think they need to make changes to the smash ability at all. Their changes constantly cause them to need to make more changes to the ability than actually making more clean and efficient changes that would actually correct the problem and design the tree as intended.

I'd have to agree that the future of rage needs to be addressed. It's the warriors primary burst spec but it really isn't a good choice for bursting down a single target. Carnage tears through a single target much better than our alleged burst spec.

I'd say a lot of us have frequently pointed out that they need to replace the focus of rage from smash, to a single target ability. Force scream is usually one of the most common suggestions. Personally, I think changing the focus over to force scream should just be used as a quick fix until they can make a new ability and think up necessary tweaks to increase the single target damage. But, it's obvious at this point BW's combat team isn't listening which is definitely something I'd like to be addressed as well.

But Sorc bubble and Kolto Overload both have 3 minute cooldowns which mean that they get substantially less use then undying rage.

Depending on the skill tree, both those abilities can be reduced to 2 min 30 sec CDs...For PTs specced into pyro the active CD on kolto overload can actually be decreased as they take damage.

They both also don't need to be in someone's face to do damage.

They both have utility to keep people from staying in their face...

They both have hard stuns...PTs have an aoe hard stun.

Pyro PTs are pretty damn good at kiting...

Force barrier is getting a buff with 2.7 so that a sorcerer will have stacks of damage absorb and interrupt immunity for 5 seconds.

Annihilation spec needs its self-healing back, and about a 5% DPS buff. It's currently not the highest parsing marauder spec, and it is a very weak PVP spec.

 

Removing the undying rage nerf would be nice, since sniper is getting a version of undying rage (evasion).

Yea, I thought annihilation was meant to do the most overall DPS...Yet it's not...GJ BW...Marauders are a mess...

Very much so...

That's why I would say to remove any cool down reductions to it so that it is a flat 2 minutes all the time. Obviously there is a 1 minute difference in the cool downs between sorc bubble / kolto overload and undying rage, but ours only last for 4 - 5 seconds depending on set bonuses where as the others last 10 seconds or more (can't remember the length of kolto overload). So in terms of total length of protection they have it for longer and get no penalty. I'm not saying that's a good reason as to why ours has a shorter cool down but it is true. I would be fine if they increased the CD on undying rage a little more and gave us the first option I suggested if everyone thinks that would be more balanced.

If you think that they don't have any downsides you should really think about what they do. Kolto Overload is a HoT so a sufficient amount of burst damage can actually break through and kill the person. Force Barrier makes the sorc unable to execute any action or even move for it's duration, so if that isn't a downside then I don't know what is.

I am going to opine on Annihilation a bit since it is my area of expertise.

When it comes to Annihilation build up. Every Warrior spec has a rotation that functions by going through damage priority until you get to filler (where resource is then rebuilt). Vengeance (and Jugg specs as a whole) have a lot of resource it can build off the start (they have 12 Rage by the time they leap in) while still having Sundering Assault so it can easily pay for its damage moves. Rage is a shared tree and as the name implies is swimming in Rage. The two real Marauder specs (Anni and Carnage) aren't able to stack so much initial Rage and deal with it in different ways. Carnage has moves that cost relatively little, so all of its burst is paid for in the initial Charge and BA. Annihilation has high cost moves in its rotation, but handles the opening by having stacks to slow down your damage abilities to ease focus generation in the opener.

You can't have Annihilation start at full stacks with no resource because its method of building resource is by holding back your rotation via Annihilator Stacks until your self-generated resource is able to keep up with the rage needed for your high damage attacks. The opener goes:

Charge + DS > BA > Rupture > Annihilate > Ravage > Ravage contd. > Rupture (if procced)

If you have full stacks, at that point you have 1 rage point... and Annihilate is off cooldown. When Charge comes off CD, so does DS. You will have to delay your big hits simply because you can't afford them. Normally you have time to use other abilities as you wait for Annihilate, with full stacks you are stuck in an awkward rotation that doesn't flow well at all. So basically Annihilation is going to be a sustained and buildup spec because it is designed exactly that way.

The best option I have been able to think of for Annihilation (besides redesigning the spec a_lot) is to keep Annihilate at a base 12 second CD, but change how stacks work. You can stack up to 2, but each reduces the CD by 3 seconds (so 12s Annihilate, then 9, then 6). That makes buildup significant but short, and keeping the flow of the rotation.

I the general idea and thrust of the PvE Question (it is a spec with the opposite of burst, little ability to fight kiting, and not great sustained) seems good, but we want to avoid making it seem like a qq question. I may help with wording of it a bit.

If you think that they don't have any downsides you should really think about what they do. Kolto Overload is a HoT so a sufficient amount of burst damage can actually break through and kill the person. Force Barrier makes the sorc unable to execute any action or even move for it's duration, so if that isn't a downside then I don't know what is.

I wasn't trying to say that they don't have downsides but they don't get penalized too much for using their cool downs. The exception being that the sorc cannot move or attack during bubble which you are correct about, I should have mentioned that, but they can get healed to full which means their ability synergies well with heals. The reason for the undying rage nerf was because it synergized too well with heals, but the sorc bubble does this as well.

You are correct in saying that kolto overload can get bursted through, but they aren't penalized when they use the ability. I wasn't talking about the down sides to the abilities, but that we are penalized with effectively a 50% healing debuff when we use undying rage.

I thought it might be good to quote Gudarzz on this to highlight the Marauder/Sentinel questions for are "due" this Friday. This is the thread where a lot of the brainstorming is going on. Have at it

 

-eric

Does Gudarzz play anymore? Marauders probably need a new class representative.