The dye system in swtor really is atrocious, and is costing them money.

 

They need to copy GW2's dye system whole cloth.

 

I'll use a dulfy link just for the pure irony (and quality) of it.

http://dulfy.net/2013/12/24/gw2-dye-gallery/

 

In gw2 they have hundreds of dyes that you can buy and permanently unlock. You can then apply these dyes any number of times to your armor in primary, secondary, and tertiary dye slots at your discretion.

 

----

As much as I enjoy the adoptable and moddable armor system Bioware (finally) implemented, an appearance tab system is simply far superior to it.

 

For example, I like the new cold weather gear they've introduced. I'd definitely use it while on Hoth or Ilum along with my Tauntaun. However, the sheer cost of switching armors is prohibitive. I am certainty not going to invest that much time, money, and inventory space on armor that I only want to wear while on hoth or ilum then immediately switch back out of once I get back on fleet.

 

Maybe they could implement a system where your primary stat mods go into fixed pve and pvp slots, but the armor shells still need to be augmented if you opt to use augments. these shells would then be placed into separate appearance tabs.

Totally agree with the appearance tab thing. It is a common request.

 

I do not understand why a company with a business model that involves selling you multiple armor sets... would make it so impractical to have multiple armor sets.

 

I have the same opinion, its like they contradict themselves as a business....

 

We WANT you to buy more armor, but we make it very expensive to swap it out, so you may not want to buy more armor, but we need the income to keep the game alive, so please buy armor from the CM, but we can't fix the issue of it costing too much to change your armor, but we will keep selling armor anyway and hope you will buy it.

 

Want the CM to really take off? Give us an appearance tab and you will probably see 2x in sales!

Edited February 20, 2014 by Themanthatisi

I don't know how you can quantify the 'costing them revenue' bits, but I'll agree the entire system is draconian in its implementation.

 

Even so, it's worlds better than where they were at launch. So I guess that's a plus.

Some good points were made by the O.P.

 

I could totally get behind an appearance tab, but think it unlikely that the devs will make the 1 use dyes change.

 

A compromise I think both sides could agree on would be to have dye's remain 1 use but affect all outfits on the appearance tab. You could still individually dye each of the pieces and uncheck the "match to chest" option. This would allow them to monetize the dyes while allowing more flexibility to appearance.

 

As an added bonus, you could have some of those outfit's that are identical except for the hood up hood down option equipped so you could FINALLY toggle between the two!

 

I agree with the OP's assessment that having multiple tabs would only benefit the game as people will still see outfit's they like on the GTN / CM and buy them, probably more often even because they can use them all more easily.

 

My other gripe is that the dye's tend to come from RNG packs. I refuse to buy these...but will drop 20 bucks in to buy the dye I WANT from the CM when they offer one of those sales. Those should be a static feature.

i wish they would make it where the dies would change ALL the colors on the outfit.. like you said there are some that have parts that dont change at all. its the most frustrating thing ever to get the bit of armor you really wanted and find out you cant dye it the colors you want.

 

what they should have done is have multiple dye slots and no dual color dyes only have single color dyes. it would give us more freedom to change the colors to what we want. and make it easier to dye the entire bit of armor.. also dyes shouldn't be rare all colors should be common B^( i don't want too and i will not pay 1 mill for double white B^(

I don't know how you can quantify the 'costing them revenue' bits, but I'll agree the entire system is draconian in its implementation.

 

Even so, it's worlds better than where they were at launch. So I guess that's a plus.

 

because I was spending around 80 a month buying CM packs and outfits after I came back.

 

Once I started getting a lot of my characters to 55 it dawned on me that using outfits was a waste of time so I started using Legacy Bound Gear and augmenting those for my characters.

 

In the last 2 months I have not purchased any CC, why should I? I have 2-3 characters that use the same main stat for DPS.

 

I am sure I am not the only one that thought of this.

 

Even before this, outfits like the Polar Set was nice looking but not nice enough for me to pull out my mods for the rare occation I am on Hoth. So I completely ignored the set. Had there been an appearance tab where I could switch out my outfit just for cold planets, I would have purchased the set, but I am not going to spend real life money, then another 600k-1.3 mil (if I add augments) just to run around with a a specific outfit on a cold planet.

 

That is how they are losing revenue.

 

1) They are losing revenue because they are not selling outfit tabs.

 

2) They are losing revenue because people refuse to keep purchasing additional outfits that are too specific.

 

3) They are losing revenue because people with multiple characters are starting to use Legacy Bound gear, especially now since all subscribers are mailed 4 full sets of pilot get on every character they make.

 

4) they are losing revenue because people have a couple black dyes, but refuse to use them and so they sit on their mules waiting for the perfect outfit.

 

 

Their outfit system is bloated and not fun to use. With the ability to pick and chose your mods, that part of customization is awesome, but being stuck with one look because of the high cost of moding and augments along with the process of constantly ripping out 35 mods and keeping multiple sets of gear in my pack just so I can look different... no, I'll spend my money else where.

Edited March 29, 2014 by illgot

4) they are losing revenue because people have a couple black dyes, but refuse to use them and so they sit on their mules waiting for the perfect outfit.

 

Lol, Have 3 of them waiting for my perfect outfit, which you all know are the Jedi robes. ;p

Edited February 21, 2014 by Alec_Fortescue

Lol, Have 3 of them waiting for my perfect outfit, which you all know are the Jedi robes. ;p

 

Maybe these next two packs will have them.

because I was spending around 100 a month buying CM packs and outfits after I came back.

 

Once I started getting a lot of my characters to 55 it dawned on me that using outfits was a waste of time so I started using Legacy Bound Gear and augmenting those for my characters.

 

In the last 2 months I have not purchased any CC, why should I? I have 2-3 characters that use the same main stat for DPS.

 

I am sure I am not the only one that thought of this.

 

Even before this, outfits like the Polar Set was nice looking but not nice enough for me to pull out my mods for the rare occation I am on Hoth. So I completely ignored the set. Had there been an appearance tab where I could switch out my outfit just for cold planets, I would have purchased the set, but I am not going to spend real life money, then another 600k-1.3 mil (if I add augments) just to run around with a a specific outfit on a cold planet.

 

That is how they are losing revenue.

 

1) They are losing revenue because they are not selling outfit tabs.

 

2) They are losing revenue because people refuse to keep purchasing additional outfits that are too specific.

 

3) They are losing revenue because people with multiple characters are starting to use Legacy Bound gear, especially now since all subscribers are mailed 4 full sets of pilot get on every character they make.

 

4) they are losing revenue because people have a couple black dyes, but refuse to use them and so they sit on their mules waiting for the perfect outfit.

 

 

Their outfit system is bloated and not fun to use. With the ability to pick and chose your mods, that part of customization is awesome, but being stuck with one look because of the high cost of moding and augments along with the process of constantly ripping out 35 mods and keeping multiple sets of gear in my pack just so I can look different... no, I'll spend my money else where.

 

You nailed it!

because I was spending around 100 a month buying CM packs and outfits after I came back.

 

1) They are losing revenue because they are not selling outfit tabs.

 

2) They are losing revenue because people refuse to keep purchasing additional outfits that are too specific.

 

3) They are losing revenue because people with multiple characters are starting to use Legacy Bound gear, especially now since all subscribers are mailed 4 full sets of pilot get on every character they make.

 

4) they are losing revenue because people have a couple black dyes, but refuse to use them and so they sit on their mules waiting for the perfect outfit.

 

Correction: they are losing revenue coming from you.

 

Plenty of people (idiots in your opinion or not) are still buying into the system just as you did at the very start.

 

Source? Go pull up your local GTN. All the items from the lastest packs are up there for sale, and there's a whole lot of them.

Edited February 21, 2014 by hadoken

Plenty of people (idiots in your opinion or not) are still buying into the system just as you did at the very start.

 

Of course some people are still participating in the CM. Nobody here has claimed that nobody participates. The claim is simply that there would be MORE demand for those CM armors and dyes if the game didn't punish us so severely every time we wanted to change our outfits.

 

The in-game credit cost for augmenting and swapping mods is basically an additional tax on the CM. And as a rule, you shouldn't impose severe taxes on behaviors that you actually WANT people to do. Cities with curb-side recycling don't charge residents $10 less if they don't use the recycling bin.

 

Also, while credit-sinks certainly need to exist in the game, this particular credit sink was designed prior to the game going F2P and prior to the CM. It really does deserve some review as to its impact on the overall game.

 

Source? Go pull up your local GTN. All the items from the lastest packs are up there for sale, and there's a whole lot of them.

 

And look at how low the prices are for some of those outfits that have been out for a while, even the not terrible ones. That would seem to indicate that supply is outstripping demand for those. Making it easier to change out looks seems like a likely way to increase demand for some of them, which would raise their prices on the GTN, providing incentive for suppliers to acquire more from the CM.

Also, while credit-sinks certainly need to exist in the game, this particular credit sink was designed prior to the game going F2P and prior to the CM. It really does deserve some review as to its impact on the overall game.

 

I agree, I just am not buying the argument that it's costing them money. They're making tons of it as is and I don't see any of these suggestions as bringing them more money - just US more convenience (which I absolutely agree with).

In what way would they lose money if they did what he said (guy couple posts up, great post btw) and say charged one-time fees for appearance tabs up to say 5-6. (Edit: "Costing them money" wasn't the best verbage. It isn't costing them money, they could just earn more money if they changed it.)

 

So we'd lose some money sink of moving mods/augments around...that's an in-game money sink they could replace with something else I'm sure or increasing sinks elsewhere.

 

However they'd gain the money from:

1. the appearance tab charges

2. some people buying more outfits because they could more readily use them without the expense of moving mods around and augmenting multiple sets (I can tell ya there's sets I didnt buy like the hoth-snow one mentioned because of this exact reason and I buy a lot less sets now than I used to again for the same reason cause I know I'll never use them because of the expense of moving things around).

 

 

Where's the monetary loss? The only thing is gain...I genuinely want to see if you can come up with some way they might lose money I'm not thinking of cause...I just don't see it. It looks like a win-win for them on money and us on convenience and getting to enjoy more looks / change our looks planet to planet if we want to or whenever we feel like it without a significant cost.

 

It will probably also help with customer retention -- any improvement of convenience generally speaking should help with keeping people happy and thus retention.

Edited February 21, 2014 by CabelHarn

However they'd gain the money from:

1. the appearance tab charges

2. some people buying more outfits because they could more readily use them without the expense of moving mods around and augmenting multiple sets (I can tell ya there's sets I didnt buy like the hoth-snow one mentioned because of this exact reason and I buy a lot less sets now than I used to again for the same reason cause I know I'll never use them because of the expense of moving things around).

 

 

Where's the monetary loss?

 

Mainly the part we don't/can't know - developer time/money cost to implement new UI and whatnot features.

 

I mean there are some very easy appearing, glaring changes they could make that they "do not have the resources" for.

 

If all this was free to implement, I'd agree. It just...isn't.

 

That's why it becomes very tricky to say a change could make or cost them money. We do not have access to all that goes into a change. All we can really say is that we'd pay x dollars for y feature and let them decide if it's worth the investment.

I mean there are some very easy appearing, glaring changes they could make that they "do not have the resources" for.

 

If all this was free to implement, I'd agree. It just...isn't.

 

You're right - Bioware seems incapable of MANY seemingly easy tasks...even the things they say are easy seem difficult for them to accomplish.

 

But the lack of an appearance tab IS costing them money. Doesn't matter WHO it's from, that statement is accurate.

That's why it becomes very tricky to say a change could make or cost them money. We do not have access to all that goes into a change. All we can really say is that we'd pay x dollars for y feature and let them decide if it's worth the investment.

 

Well the term in the title IS revenue, not profit.

Definitely a good point..we don't know the difficulty/cost. It's definitely something if they're not already considering they should because it'd definitely add more revenue if they did add it. Especially if you only got say 1-2 appearance tabs free and could pay CC for more. That in addition to the increase in armor look sales and box sales due to there being more reason to try to get them all since you could more easily wear diff. sets

I hate the current dye system. It's ridiculous. A one use item to change the color of either one of two out of three overall colors. Um, why so? Is giving customization to people a bad thing. Happy people are happy customers. I take pride and enjoyment in creating a character and that certainly includes the wardrobe. As far as Mods, enhancements, and armor , in my opinion should apply to the player. This would make changing outfits on the fly way more feasible instead of spending lucrative amounts on removing them because I want to change my look.

Correction: they are losing revenue coming from you.

 

Plenty of people (idiots in your opinion or not) are still buying into the system just as you did at the very start.

 

Source? Go pull up your local GTN. All the items from the lastest packs are up there for sale, and there's a whole lot of them.

 

And I am sure I am the only one who passed on the Polar set or stopped purchasing outfits and hypercrates because they started using using Legacy Bound Gear or already developed a fully augmented set...

 

Bioware is losing revenue due to their restrictive and bloated appearance system.

 

I am not the only person who has reached the point in the game where they just stopped buying CC because they have no use for any of the outfits and dyes.

 

I hate the current dye system. It's ridiculous. A one use item to change the color of either one of two out of three overall colors. Um, why so? Is giving customization to people a bad thing. Happy people are happy customers. I take pride and enjoyment in creating a character and that certainly includes the wardrobe. As far as Mods, enhancements, and armor , in my opinion should apply to the player. This would make changing outfits on the fly way more feasible instead of spending lucrative amounts on removing them because I want to change my look.

 

I have multiple Black/Black, White/White, etc on my mules waiting to be used. Since they cost me an upwards of 2000 CC each, which is more expensive than any outfit, I have not used them. I am waiting for an outfit which is perfect.

 

Which also means I have not purchased any additional dyes and will not purchase any additional dyes until they are used.

 

Players that have used the CM only dyes will probably not give up their outfits because they have dyes that cost them 2000 CC.

 

One time use dyes are great but they can not be so expensive as to limit the purchase of additional dyes of the same type and limit the purchase of other outfits if used.

Edited February 22, 2014 by illgot

Sadly, most of them look horrible to me, too. But I still have to use them because constantly pulling out the mods is too expensive for me to afford with how often I switch the characters I'm playing (I'd end up spending at least a couple million every day or two).

 

So why not spend that money and set up each of your characters with their own gear, and only have to spend it once? It's not like you're changing looks, since you're just passing the same gear around.

 

For myself, I went the self sufficient route, and craft my own kits and augments. I read earlier here where someone suggested that finding a look I liked and staying with it wasn't fun. By definition, if I like it, I must be having fun with it. An appearance tab, or even a couple of cosmetic slots added to the char page would be fine. To the rest of this, if I'm going to swap out gear for a purely cosmetic look while loitering somewhere, why would I spend a million credits to mod it up? If it's for appearance only, I can run around on fleet with nothing in it. I don't have to keep my gear in my inventory, if I decide I'm going to hit some HMs, or an Op, I can get dressed for work. No big deal.

For myself, I went the self sufficient route, and craft my own kits and augments.

Sure, I do the same, but to add Mk-9 slots to 7 pieces is going to run you 252000cr plus another ~9000cr to pull the old augments (another 63k) so you're already in the hole for over 300k. Then you have to pull the rest of your mods and you're looking at over 520k if you have 72's and 78's.

 

To the rest of this, if I'm going to swap out gear for a purely cosmetic look while loitering somewhere

Who said anything about loitering? Clearly people can just wear empty shells if that's what they're after. It should be obvious that people want to change their "working clothes" without such a financial disincentive.

Money Sink

 

This is the primary argument players use to support the current appearance system. If players are rarely taking out their mods once they have 1 outfit or Legacy Bound set built... how productive is this system as a money sink?

 

Why not build a system which has a much smaller cost but allows players to change their characters outfit on the fly when ever they wish with the click of one button? How much money would a system which is easy and fun to use, a system which every player at every level is willing to use, remove from the game if properly implemented?

 

Thanks for stating the obvious!

 

I am tired of people giving this poor excuse to explain the need of the current system... Once my characters reach max level I pick an armor set (usually I even chose it way earlier) and stick to it, so in the end the only credits I spend is meant to upgrade my mods not to move them to a new armor set.

 

We keep getting new armors whether through reputation or CM but none of them appeal to me because I simply refuse to spend over 1 million credits just so my toon can look differently. Pretty sure I am far from alone in this boat.

Sure, I do the same, but to add Mk-9 slots to 7 pieces is going to run you 252000cr plus another ~9000cr to pull the old augments (another 63k) so you're already in the hole for over 300k. Then you have to pull the rest of your mods and you're looking at over 520k if you have 72's and 78's.

 

 

Who said anything about loitering? Clearly people can just wear empty shells if that's what they're after. It should be obvious that people want to change their "working clothes" without such a financial disincentive.

 

Why would I have to pull them when I'm staying with one armor set? Now I've never tried to overwrite an augment, but since I didn't start seriously trying to augment my gear until I hit 55, I won't have to pull existing augments out. It's going to take me a bit longer to get the ones I want in, since some of the mats are hard to get through crafting, but since I'm putting in ones I'll be comfortable wearing, I won't have to worry about that. My Mara, Assassin and Sorc share a look, but it's appropriate, and the consensus, the only time I cared to ask outside of myself, was that the looks suit them to a tee. I don't need or desire to change them.

 

Which brings me back to my initial post: Spend the money once, and make the alternate sets, instead of changing mods around every other day. If I decide to get into PvP, for example, I'll make a second set specifically for that. I won't have to carry it around with me 24/7, if I'm going to queue up for PvP, I can simply equip the set and queue. When I'm done, I can swap back to the other set and put the PvP set away.

I don't need or desire to change them.

 

This right here is why you aren't getting it. Some people would like to change their looks more frequently as new, possibly better-looking armor, appears on the CM. Or sometimes just to better suit the environment. But the cost of augmenting and moving all of the mods into a different set of armor is high enough that it isn't going to happen on a whim.

 

This isn't about changing out mods so we can PvP or tank instead of DPS. Most people keep multiple sets of gear around for that like you do.

 

You found gear you like and are sticking with it. Why? Is it because your characters look as good as they possibly can? Or is it because they look "good enough", and it isn't worth the time and/or credits to tweak their looks any further?

I made a point to tell the developers at the last Cantina event that Legacy gear (as their primary gear to wear) is an absolute requirement for each of my 11 level 55 characters, so that they can share their gear with their Imp/Pub counterparts, etc. Given this personal requirement, it makes most of what the cartel market attempts to sell me particularly worthless. Armor and weapons are just pointless for me. Unless I'm leveling a new toon, they aren't going to wear it. Anything I might like for leveling a toon, I'll just get off the GTN. But it's a short term, one time need. And not something that a new outfit in a new cartel pack is going to motivate me enough to buy cartel packs for.

 

The current dye system doesn't bother me that much, as is, because I'm not changing outfits on my toons, very often. If legacy outfits come out on the cartel market, and those outfits are interesting enough for me to consider switching them out often enough, my attitude about color dye's might change. (Although I rather like black/red, which I can craft).

 

My point in bringing this to the attention of the developers was that while I would be willing to spend real money for new gear (occasionally), I'm not willing to do so while giving up an important feature (legacy gear). And this, there is a revenue opportunity from me, that they are missing out on.

 

As I consider the change I would want, the trouble, for BioWare, is that Legacy unlocks are an additional revenue source that they get, and thus selling Legacy gear on the cartel market would undermine this revenue source. Also, I rather doubt there are as many players like me, with 10+ toons at level 55, as there are players with 1-2 at level 55, that are willing to pay the unlock fee. Thus, I'm not holding my breath for a change.