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Bolstered Mods vs. Obroan


TaitWatson

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Tait, thank you for taking the time to post. Any animosity from myself and others is not directed towards you, but rather the blatantly incompetent developers that are feeding you the information, and I am sorry that your job requires that you interact with them. This information, that has been passed on to you for you to relay to us, is simply factually incorrect. There are a large number of threads citing math and screenshots to support this accusation, and there is no evidence, that I have seen, that can support the claims in your post. The entire PvP community is not wrong. Please tell your developers that they need to seriously reevaluate the way in which the test these things. If they need help in doing this, there are several well-qualified members of the community that can assist them in doing their job.

 

Well said. I'm not the kind of person to start hating on developers, but most of the information in the original dev post is simply incorrect. I generally do my own testing with gear, and it lines up with what the rest of the PvP community says. In all honesty, I'm simply at a loss as to how the developers can be so insulated from the reality of the current PvP gearing situation.

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Is it me or did they really test a non min/maxed set of obroan with a different stat priority again a bolstered set for power then say that the obroan has more crit?

Ami i missing something here or?

 

I think they are trying to say: An optimized bolstered gear is under-performing against an unoptimized Obroan gear.

Or at least that's how I understood it.

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I will certainly read it, but I can't promise a response - at least not right away. What I can promise to do is pass along your exact mods/equipment to the combat team so that they can recreate your gear and look at the numbers. This can certainly help us narrow down any bugs in the mods that weren't found during these past few weeks.

Ok Tait, here it is.

This is 100% apples to apples. I am carrying Power/Surge on all slots, might augments on all screens, and all buffs.

 

"Exploit" MH/OH: (46/46/46 & +41 POW crystal x 2)

WEAPON SCREEN

RAVAGE SCREEN

Crit: 19.15%

Crit Multi: 75.32%

END: 32112

RAV TT value: 6444(!)

 

Stock Obroan x2:

WEAPON SCREEN

RAVAGE SCREEN

Crit: 18.04%

Crit Multi: 75.45%

END: 31104

RAV TT value: 8096(!)

 

My personal build, but you can do "better": (66/69/58, +41 Power MH; 69/61/58, +41 power OH)

WEAPON SCREEN

RAVAGE SCREEN

Crit: 18.03%

Crit Multi: 74.99%

END: 30701

RAV TT value: 8226(!)

 

 

So what does this all tell me? Basically, if you have any PvP viable weapon based attacks, 46/46/46 is NOT an exploit. I REPEAT; NOT AN EXPLOIT (which Tait has more or less confirmed), which I have been saying for some time now. It's actually a pretty big nerf.

 

Since the "Primary Damage" stat is higher on the 46, but the TT reads WAY lower, the only plausible explanation is 46 weapon damage is 314 max, while Obroan and my personal build is between 651 and 702 (which means weapon damage applies to attack ratings and are not impacted by bolster, outside of the slight issue of increased Bonus Damage).

 

It also means the weapon damage multipliers + native Weapon Damage dictates how strong weapon based attacks are way more than bolster does, so in affect if you have PvE hilts/barrels with higher weapon damage than Obroan, but do a loadout to not get a Bolster penalty, it will be BiS (outside of Force/Tech heavy classes).

 

On a side note Tait, I am a player that understands the "point" of bolster, but my question has been asked a lot. If you intend for just about every gear combo to be viable, why is PvP gear still present and how can you justify the time/cost to attain this. I posted a thread I really, really, really wish you and the combat staff would read.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=719106

 

 

Please see my full thoughts on how to solve a ton of issues with PvP gear and PvP in general..

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Tait, thank you for taking the time to post. Any animosity from myself and others is not directed towards you, but rather the blatantly incompetent developers that are feeding you the information, and I am sorry that your job requires that you interact with them. This information, that has been passed on to you for you to relay to us, is simply factually incorrect. There are a large number of threads citing math and screenshots to support this accusation, and there is no evidence, that I have seen, that can support the claims in your post. The entire PvP community is not wrong. Please tell your developers that they need to seriously reevaluate the way in which the test these things. If they need help in doing this, there are several well-qualified members of the community that can assist them in doing their job.

 

this is what the PTS is for yet when we post they dont read yes i agree im sorry eric amber the whole team has to interact with these I dont know what the hell they are... monkeys behind computer screens? buff here nerf there and try it ooo this is OP lets nerf it back down and buff this o now thats OP oh well

Edited by VIncentBlaze
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Great questions!

 

1. That was just poorly worded on my part - the Obroan used its default crystal and the Power crystals were in the non-Obroan sets we used. We tested with two non-Obroan gear sets to get the differentials.

 

2. This is where the crystal issue I mentioned comes into play. Bolster should be taking into consideration the crystal in the weapon when it adds stats, but it currently isn't and thus the MH/OH are bolstering improperly. This is why you see the bonus damage over Obroan.

 

About question 2, I'm sorry, I have no clue how i ended up skipping that part of the last paragraph in the OP that specifically answers my question before I asked it. Thanks for repeating yourself even though you had already answered.

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Boolster always will be bugged. New tier of gear = new bugs/expoits = monthes to fix = ∞.

Only 1 solution remove this bolster, bolster isn't helps newbies to survive. Free recruit gear on 1 tier lower than beginning PvP gear.

Edited by helpmewin
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So where does Conqueror gear fit into all of this? So Conqueror is the "3rd" best gear for pvp, even though it should be 2nd below Obroan?

 

The maximum you should be able to get out of Bolster should be BELOW Conqueror.

Why not just remove conq all together so people dont get fooled into grinding for it and use up theyr comms.

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So where does Conqueror gear fit into all of this? So Conqueror is the "3rd" best gear for pvp, even though it should be 2nd below Obroan?

 

The maximum you should be able to get out of Bolster should be BELOW Conqueror.

Why not just remove conq all together so people dont get fooled into grinding for it and use up theyr comms.

 

Well trade-ins are bad enough, but yeah, I told people in the past that using CONQ, outside of buying specifically for the trade-in, is a nerf. The worst part is if the system stays the same, but a new PvP tier is released, Obroan will be a nerf because they will have to increase bolster on PvE gear to account for the increased PvP tier. This already happend once. Even though Partisan doesnt have any of the old pvp gear issues, its a pretty significant nerf compared to bolster PvE gear.

 

I hate to bust the devs out like this, but I grow weary of grinding pvp gear only to find out its nowhere near BiS. I say get rid of PvP gear or rework in according to my proposal so there is some progression of EXP, not PvE stats on PvP gear.

Edited by L-RANDLE
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So where does Conqueror gear fit into all of this? So Conqueror is the "3rd" best gear for pvp, even though it should be 2nd below Obroan?

 

The maximum you should be able to get out of Bolster should be BELOW Conqueror.

Why not just remove conq all together so people dont get fooled into grinding for it and use up theyr comms.

 

1. Conqueror is not a waste of comms. For arguments sake, let's assume Conqueror is in fact inferior to Blue 46s (I doubt it is, but whatever). Even then, you need the Conqueror shells to buy the Obroan gear. So no, they won't just remove Conqueror. The grind has to stay, because without a carrot on a stick, players whine and leave. Unfortunate yes, but true nonetheless.

 

2. Is Conqueror inferior to Blue 46s at all? Cause i have no clue for real. Since min/maxed 46s is 5% below stock Obroan, can someone do the number crunching and tell me if Conq is in fact inferior to Blue 46s?

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If you intend for just about every gear combo to be viable, why is PvP gear still present and how can you justify the time/cost to attain this.

 

Tait or anyone from EA/BW for that matter, will not give you a legitimate answer. But if you want to hear what they won't tell you, which IMO is the only logical conclusion (by all means, someone come up with something better)...

 

They NEVER intended for these mods/enhans to be "on par" with PvP gear, but since they are unable to figure out a way to fix it, they are just now saying (since ao many are doing it now), that it's all working as intended. Bolster in 55's is an utter joke, not because I don't think what's going on is bad, but because this was never their intention. Which now goes back to your question, then why even have PvP gear? Because they're literally confused as you are. The abortion of what we got in Bolster, reflects the skill of the developers/coders that we have. Period. While this response is obviously a bit harsh, can anyone come up with a better answer? I can't.

Edited by Pistols
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Wasnt the whole point of Bolster to just "ease the pain" when youre starting with nothing. Not actually surpass proper pvp gear you have to play many many warzones to get.

 

So for a new player you go like this: Its not 100% reality but for arguments sake.

- You hit 55 and go into warzones to grind for Conq thinking yes, this will be good. They buy some Conq pieces and see no difference at all and even get nerfed depending on what they had. Until they get an Obroan piece which is a LONG grind for an average player.

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Wasnt the whole point of Bolster to just "ease the pain" when youre starting with nothing. Not actually surpass proper pvp gear you have to play many many warzones to get.

 

So for a new player you go like this: Its not 100% reality but for arguments sake.

- You hit 55 and go into warzones to grind for Conq thinking yes, this will be good. They buy some Conq pieces and see no difference at all and even get nerfed depending on what they had. Until they get an Obroan piece which is a LONG grind for an average player.

 

This is why they removed Recruit gear, cause as we all know, development did a piss poor job their as well. Instead they blamed the players for not utilizing the gear provided, even though the gear itself was laughable. So with the copious amounts of complaints with people with no expertise/health, they decided to include Bolster into the highest level. Sadly, they did another piss poor job when introducing it, and even today...it rains yellow in 55's.

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While this response is obviously a bit harsh, can anyone come up with a better answer? I can't.

My cynical side?

To keep hardcore PvP players chasin' the carrot, while still being "casual friendly". You cant tell players the truth and still have PvP gear in game. It really sucks my initial subjective observations, when they removed EXP for my WH/EWH gear, were true.

 

Needless grinds are needless. Lets just be done with PvP gear all together. 100% PvP gear has never been BiS anyway..

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This is why they removed Recruit gear, cause as we all know, development did a piss poor job their as well. Instead they blamed the players for not utilizing the gear provided, even though the gear itself was laughable. So with the copious amounts of complaints with people with no expertise/health, they decided to include Bolster into the highest level. Sadly, they did another piss poor job when introducing it, and even today...it rains yellow in 55's.

 

Pfft I rocked the recruit gear on purpose and still steam rolled people. Recruit gear wasn't great, but it was good enough and way better than this crap bolster. If the ignorant players don't want to wear it then they should 100% suffer the consequences for it. It was free gear and it was their damn fault for not using it in pvp. But hey, at least PvE gets to start dealing with it now with the new tactical FP thats boring as hell.

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Randle, I agree with most of your posts and assessments. It really took the wind outta my sails when I started researching and finding out that all my grinding to get full obroan was just a complete waste. All those WZ's played with the thought of advancing my character turned out to be ******. If I'm gonna grind for the gear then by God I want to see and feel the difference, not have some clown show up in lvl 40 gear and mods and have just as good if not better stats and performance.... this game is not COD or BF1944 we don't all start out on the same playing field nor should we... getting into pvp and getting your **** pushed in by vets is just part of it and it will make you appreciate your gear gains all the more. Provided of course that God forbid, PVP gear actually be the BIS for PVP.... absolute foreign thinking for this game but hell lets pretend anyways.
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Pfft I rocked the recruit gear on purpose and still steam rolled people. Recruit gear wasn't great, but it was good enough and way better than this crap bolster. If the ignorant players don't want to wear it then they should 100% suffer the consequences for it. It was free gear and it was their damn fault for not using it in pvp. But hey, at least PvE gets to start dealing with it now with the new tactical FP thats boring as hell.

 

That's short sided though. Why should I or the rest of my teammates suffer because someone decides not, or doesn't know, to wear Recruit gear? I also don't see why there needs to be two gear sets to consume any content on this game. PvP should be about EXP and EXP alone. Nothing too lopsided, but PvP gearing needs to be reworked, not bolster.

Edited by L-RANDLE
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As I and others have suggested many times previously:

 

Sensible solutions have been proposed time and time again.

 

 

  • If you have max expertise, leave your stats alone.
     
  • If you have less than max expertise on any given item, then for the duration of the WZ give that item generic tier1 pvp stats + whatever augments you have on it.

 

There. Fixed. Done. PvEers can wear whatever they want, PvPers gets a slight advantage through minmaxing and upgrading to tier 2. End of story. No messing around trying to figure out combinations of mods, no worrying that you might have stepped over some dodgy threshold with PvE raid gear, no complaints about returning players wearing champion/battlemaster. Exactly what bolster was *supposed* to do originally.

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Curious as to why you bothered checking ravage against 46s. Need to demonstrate how it affects a standard tech/force attack.

 

Because Ravage is part of his white damage. And his white damage gets a pretty damn big blow to the head.

 

Force/Tech will hit slightly harder, but by no means make up for the loss in white.

 

This is why 46's work fine as entrygear, but obroan WILL be your preferred layout as any class that gets core damage from white attacks.

 

As I and others have suggested many times previously:

 

Bolster was never solely "supposed" to help PvE players. But also new entries of level 55 players with PvP in their minds.

Edited by Evolixe
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Pfft I rocked the recruit gear on purpose and still steam rolled people. Recruit gear wasn't great, but it was good enough and way better than this crap bolster. If the ignorant players don't want to wear it then they should 100% suffer the consequences for it. It was free gear and it was their damn fault for not using it in pvp. But hey, at least PvE gets to start dealing with it now with the new tactical FP thats boring as hell.

 

Like Randle mentioned, the presence of 1 idiot doesn't not mean the 7 players who know what they're doing should suffer the consequences. If they are going to give the players a choice to be in terribad gear, then we also need the choice to kick these players so that they frikking learn not to not wear Recruit gear.

 

And of course, there's the ******s who purposely wear terrible gear with the reasoning, "I hate PvP, but I have to PvP for my <insert BiS relic here> so I wanna make PvPers life hell for forcing us to PvP". Go to thread in which Randle keeps advising these players on how to be viable and you'll see at least 5-10 posters, who purposely, knowingly wear 78 gear, just because they can.

 

PvP needs either a working vote-to-kick system, or the removal of trolls' ability to troll us. In an ideal world, Bioware would implement both of the above, but that might give them technical issues. ;)

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If bolster is "working as intended", at least no one needs to worry about any more new pvp gear grinds that the devs will likely come out with. Just find some random trash from the latest flashpoint and you're good to go for rated pvp in under 15 minutes!

 

Come on Wildstar!

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