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tunewalker
02.01.2014 , 11:27 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Tune, forgive me, but surely you see that you could be accused of wearing equally rose tinted spectacles? How else would you be able to claim that the KOTOR II era was simply weak? What sense does that even make?

Vrook Lamar and the other members of the Jedi Council were appointed to those positions before the dark wars, before the Jedi Civil War and before the Mandalorian Wars. They were the most powerful members of the Jedi Order, which itself has produced prodigies such as Revan and Malak and never been said to be weak.

And then we have Sion, who rose to prominence during the Great Sith War - was he weak too? Forgive me but weak individuals cannot achieve immortality through channeling raw power in the dark side - period.

And then we have Traya, who could peer thousands of years into the future, percieve the shatterpoints of others with ease, heal individuals with grievous injury and sustain terrible injury herself and attack the Exile telkinetically despite being severed from the Force! Do we lump her into the weak pile as well? On what grounds?

And then we have the Exile, who after being severed from the Force grew stronger and stronger and stronger with every kill she made, she subverted entire armies almost single-handedly and then stormed an academy of assassins and Sith, and I don't care how weak you think they were, its still a bloody academy of Force Users numbering in possible 100 or more! Meetra prior to this being one of the leading generals during the Jedi Civil War.

Heck don't even get me started on Nihilus, possibly the most powerful Force entity bar Luke Skywalker.

Yes there have been many wars in which many people have died, but this is hardly evidence to assert that only the weak and inferior are left over. Most the Jedi Council survived the war and were not replaced but whatever weak folk were left over. In fact I think every member survived the war - Jedi apathy for you. Master Kavar in particular gained a great deal of experience and acclaim during the Jedi Civil War - the Jedi Council being the best of the current order.

And then we have the various Exiles and lost. Kreia has nothing to do with the war, she is not a weak left over from the Sith or the Jedi, she left the Order and went into exile. For all we know she could have been among the most powerful, or perhaps not, but her abilities define her power not her context. The same can be said for Meetra, who herself was one of the few survivors of the Jedi Civil War which would indicate she was in fact one of the strongest.

And then we have the Lost Jedi, who are not the stragglers left over from war, but Force Users who for various reasons went unnoticed and never trained as Jedi, there is nothing to suggest they are not powerful.

Basically its arbitrary, you lack a scrap of evidence to support it. Please allows logic and reason to resurface and look to comparison of Force ability, as opposed to making broad strokes about the Force Users of this period being weak, irregardless of the fact that they stand up to Force Users from other respective eras.

To claim that "oh all the tough guys had been killed at that point" is just a bit silly I feel, its an attempt to discredit the entire era on ultimately purely theoretical grounds. Many Jedi and Sith survived the events of the previous wars, and many have demonstrated themselves to be very powerful in their own right. If you really feel that was that Obsidian were trying to portray in KOTOR II then you are mistaken, about a great many things.

On the other hand, the evidence for our arguments are sound, allow me to present some:

  • Meetra Surik was a wound in the Force which would protect her from the effects of a dark side nexus as the Force would literally be incapable of penetrating the empty void that surrounds her. She is a dead spot in the Force, a place where "its will can be denied." I think the meaning there is clear, the Force cannot affect her.

  • This is supported by the fact that she is immune to Nihilus power, Nihilus effectively being a human replica of Malachor V - a wound in the Force wreathed in a dark side nexus.

  • Malachor V is one of the strongest dark side nexuses in the galaxy:

    "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."

    I fail to see how a being strong in the light side of the Force could function on such a world, let alone single-handedly defeat an academy of Sith and two powerful Sith Lords.

  • Meetra's wound would have closed naturally. Unlike Nihilus she did not succumb to it and allow it to grow larger, a wound in the Force being a dark side manifestation. A being strong in the light side of the Force slowly regaining her connection to the Force would find an effective dark side stain inside her slowly diminish. This is perfectly empirical evidence supported by the fact that nobody mentions her wound in the novel. PIS? Probably, but at the same time through Drew's incompetence he inadvertedly supports this argument. If Meetra remained a wound in the Force, people would notice. Yet Lord Scourge doesn't even seem to bat an eyelid?

  • As Lady has said repeatedly light side users have been profoundly effected by the dark side nexus on Dromund Kaas, Ben Skywalker if I recall could barely move and Yoda himself struggled to call on the Force. All evidence, regardless of the novel's content, points to Meetra being effected by the dark side nexus profoundly.

So it is far from illogical to assert that Meetra, no longer protected by her wound in the Force, found her ability on Dromund Kaas diminished. Far better than assuming that Meetra is simple weak (despite Revan seeing her as his equal), the SIth Triumvirate were weak, and everyone else in that period were just weak. Come now.

If you still disagree, I'd ask you to respond to the above evidence point by point - because I can't actually comprehend what the above is saying. Though this is going to have to gain traction if we want to change the list.
See all of this crap makes absolutely NO SENSE. You claim she was some how immune to Malachor V and yet then talk about how it affected her greatly causing her Nausea and greatly impending both her abilities and mental soundness. So there is nothing pointing to her Wound protecting her here. ESPECIALLY with that quote you just gave of Malachor V. It DOESNT say it was the most powerful Dark Side Nexus of all time all it does is describe a Dark Side Nexi. Its perfectly describing a Dark side Nexus "It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death." that is the description of what a Dark Side Nexus is. If the FORCE is created by life then a Corruption of that would litterally be called corrupting life and feeding on death, all she did was describe the nature of a Dark Side Nexus.

And while Light siders have been affected on Dromuund Kaas Lady just said Meetra felt COMFORT landing on its surface. So her response to it is not consistant with what a normal Light sider usually feels on Dromuund Kaas. Your evidence does not match your argument.


OK i am going to try to cover point by point but i am skipping everything about "the era being weak or strong" because that was just an assessment made by me getting more and more frustrated over a poorly written game followed by a poorly written novel to tie in everything with plot holes the size of Alaska.


1. You would think and thats what i was lead to believe as well, but the description of her hearing the voices of the diceased and feeling Nausea and having herself adversely affected by Malachor V at all points to other wise.

2. True that and no arguement here, her wound protected her from Nihilus but it does not mean it protected her from Malachor V and as already said and shown, if it did she should not have heard the voices nor should she have felt the Nausea.

3. In that quote it is not being claimed as one of the most powerful Dark Side nexus it is just being called a Dark Side Nexus all Traya is doing there is going into a lengthy description of what a Dark side nexus is and how Malachor V came to be a Dark Side Nexus, further more as was said above according to information being brought up Meetra had the proper response to a Lightsider landing on a powerful Dark Side Nexus showing once again her wound did nothing.



4. 2 ways, 1 The world isnt as corrupt as you seem to believe it is, its a dark side nexus but no where does it say its more powerful then your average Nexus, your misinterpreted what Traya said. See above. and 2 those "powerful" dark siders were massively out classed. A light sider has defeated Dark Siders on a Dark Side Nexus before. It happens all the time usually the Light sider is just that much stronger we have to conclude Meetra was the same after all again we are looking at the fact that she WAS affected by Malachor V so the thought that her wound some how protected her doesnt hold water.

5. While this MAY happen and sounds rational where is the evidence to support. Other then no one mentioning it there is nothing showing that she was different at that time then she was before. She is negatively affected by both Nexus's when she lands on them so saying an inconsistancy between Malachor and Kaas doesnt hold water since there is no inconsistancy there. She was negatively affected by Malachor which was a dark side nexus "It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death." after all thats what ALL Dark side nexi are by their definition. Kaas which would work the exact same way..... did the same thing to her but to a lesser degree as she was not described as Nauseous there. She was weakened yes as a proper Lightsider should be, but it seems Malachor had a STRONGER affect on her then Kaas did. So Malachor clearly a stronger Dark Side Nexus then Kaas is and her wound did nothing their to protect her, if it did she wouldnt have felt its affects, but she did feel them so it didnt do anything to help. Am i repeating the same point enough to get this yet.


6. Never disagreed with this

7. her powers on Dromuund Kaas were clearly affected again never doubted that, the problem is they were MORE adversely affected on Malachor, so the idea that her wound protected her from Malachor and then her wound closed and she was negatively affected by Kaas is Bull ****. She WAS negatively affected by Malachor and she was more affected then she was at Kaas meaning her wound in the force did absolutely JACK ALL to protect her from Malachor V. This is where every argument for her and the Triumviate falls flat. If her wound protected her she shouldnt have felt the affects, but she did. While we can assume her wound closed.... we have no evidence to support it. No one said it closed, there was no change in her abilities to resist Dark Side Nexus, she didnt resist it before and she didnt resist it after.

If she did resist it before and she was at her full strength on Malachor I wouldnt be argueing this and that to me would make a whole crap ton of sense. She herself is a corruption of the Force as a wound thus walking on a planet where the Force has been corrupted AKA a dark side nexus especially one where the Corruption was caused much in the same way if not exactly the same way should empower her the same way it does dark side users at least until the wound itself closed. Thats not what happened though, she was adversely affected just like every other Lightsider that walks on a Dark Side Nexus meaning her wound did a whole lot of nothing to change that relationship meaning we have no reason to believe it closed by the time of Kaas because now we have nothing showing her as different form other Lightside users on a Dark Side Nexus when her wound was open.


If you havent noticed i am now talking in circles...... If Meetra was not negatively affected by Malachor V I would openly believe everything here and have done so in the past as I thought she wasnt. Then evidence shows up saying she WAS affected by it meaning her wound DIDNT protect her from it. If it didnt protect her then, then when she is on Kaas wound Open or Not Kaas would still affect her regardless, after all Malachor did and it was the sight of the wound opening it shared a similar Corruption if she wasnt protected from it then she isnt going to be protected form any Nexus wound open or close. Thats the whole problem every last arguement starts out she resisted Malachor....... but she DIDNT they specifically say she didnt, Nausea is not resisting.



Edit: Just read Rayla's thing AWESOME we now have evidence the wound closed.......... but what did it do to lower her power. Dark Side Nexus's still had the same affect on her when it was open so it doesnt matter that she was on Kaas. Her knowledge was still the same only difference was how she formed force bonds. She was stil negatively affected by Malachor more so then her being negatively affected by Kaas. So wound or no wound still same affect.