Scoundrel Top 3 Answers
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09.21.2013 , 07:25 PM |
Quote: Originally Posted by
This is just blatantly false. The reason scrapper feels like a lone wolf is very obvious to anyone who has actually played the class. Any team with competent DPS can remove you from a fight with damage alone, no cc required on the tank or the healer, THROUGH GUARD WHILE GETTING HEALED, in 5s or less. in regular warzones every day I am literally killed by people before getting a third attack off. We are a lone wolf entirely because this class has to be very picky about who, when, and where we attack. The sole cause of this? It's not our mediocre burst damage, or because we're melee, and it has nothing to do with stealth at all. It's because our survivability is *********** awful. Do you remember people complaining about how squishy marauders were in beta? Then you guys gave them cheat death (actually, two cheat deaths, because back then force camo had 100% DR too if I remember correctly) and cloak of pain, so they wouldn't just pop immediately. Assassin, pre 1.6? 1.7? had exactly this same problem, and you solved it correctly, giving them 30% AOE DR and an on demand 25% DR, as well as a stacking DR talent, and DR upon exiting stealth. You also gave them increased energy regen during stealth and while their 25% on demand was active on top of already having superior energy mechanics (no brackets, set regen rate across the board). We need EXACTLY THESE THINGS. We have dodge, lasts 1/3 as long (with our set bonus) as deflection but has half the cool down and 100% avoidance instead of just increased avoidance. Fair trade, balanced. We have shield probe, absorbs pretty close to the same amount overcharge saber heals for (again, with the set bonus), shorter cool down, not quite as good, and no offensive benefit to using it. Fair trade, balanced. They have force shroud, we have nothing to compare to this. -1. They have 30% AOE DR, we do not, -1. They have 25% dr in stealth and an on demand 25% DR out of stealth, we do not, -2. We are clearly at a significant survivability deficit to our fellow stealth burst spec. They can hang in the main fight, we cannot. Moving on.
At launch maybe, now this is certainly no longer true. If SF/HS does not crit, it hits for only slightly more than many cc's in this game. I will continue my comparison to the only other stealth burst spec in the game, deception assassins. Spike has a 30s cd, requires stealth and does 1-1.5k dmg on non crits and 1.5-2.5k dmg on crits. It also knocks the target down for 1.5s. It also procs duplicity, which grants a free maul that does increased damage. In min/maxed partisan on my Assassin, the maul typically hits for 6-9k. On my operative in min/maxed conqueror, SF/HS hits normally for 2.5k-3.5k, and crits between 6-7.5k. Fair? Nope. Balanced? Nope. Out of control burst? Absolutely not. Assuming a maximum burst opener, with a perfect string of crits on a sorc or sage in recruit gear, I can drop a 7.5K SF/HS, 6K EP/SC, 7K BB/BS, while FR/AB ticks for 1k/s on top of that, amounting to a grand total of 23.5k damage in 3 globals. Seems pretty good right? Now consider a deception sin. 2K Spike, 10k Maul, 9K Discharge. 21k damage in three globals. Slightly worse (and for all I know, this may only be a gear difference, full 65s vs full 63s), but both have now decimated poor sorcy sorc. Scrapper/Concealment pulls ahead, but wait! Sins can do this same burst over again almost immediately without vanishing, while taking less damage, with absolutely no stealth requirement involved, on people OTHER than poor Mr. Sorcy Sorc in rags. I could see this statement being accurate if SF/HS was the one critting for 8k+ all the time, but seeing as it is not not only not doing that, but the other stealth burst class actually is, and does not have a stealth requirement or cool down on their closest equivalent, this is totally laughable. Assuming we aren't using our vanish offensively is also laughable, considering none of our abilities have a significant crit boost, and many times we are forced to vanish and reopen on random targets simply to actually damage them and not tickle.
The opener listed above was assuming a perfect string of crits from the Scoundrel/Operative, which is incredibly rare. Now let's play the same scenario back, assuming a no crit scenario (which is far, FAR more common). 3k SF/HS, 4K EP/SC, 3K BB/BS, in addition to 500/s from FR/AB. We have now blown all of our burst upon Mr. Sorcy Sorc, and have done a measly 10.5k. Our assassin friend comes by, hits a 1k Spike, 8k maul, 9k discharge. 18k damage in three globals. Maul train 1, Scrapper 0. However, it is worth pointing out that no one complains about deception's burst. So, in summary, what the actual **** were you thinking when you wrote this, and how could this be even remotely overpowered, considering you have another spec doing exactly what scrapper/concealment is designed to do (and would very obviously like to return to doing), and no one is throwing a tantrum over it?
The current mechanic of returning 10 energy every time Flying Fists/Collateral Strike damages a target is acceptable and needs to remain untouched. Quick shot is literally only useful for damaging a Sin who has activated force shroud, and you are better off using flurry of bolts/rifle shot during this time to regen energy. Seeing as it costs nearly 1/5th of our energy bar and hits for somewhere in the neighborhood of 2k ( I am admittedly unsure of this, as this ability is so poor that I very, very rarely use it) you could delete it entirely and no one would complain. It would need to do double the damage it currently does for half the cost to even be worth considering over flurry of bolts/rifle shot IMO.
Of all answers so far, this is by a large margin the single most idiotic thing I have read. Our ability to heal, especially as scrapper, is totally laughable. Our only usable heal in combat is Underworld Medicine, which costs a 1/4 of our energy bar (guaranteed to put us in a bad spot energy wise, even if we don't have to scamper 1-3 times to get range to avoid getting interrupted/ LOS, thus being totally 100% out of energy after a single heal. This single heal (which is a 2.5 second cast, of course) heals normally in the 3k range, and crits for around 6k accounting for the trauma (general pvp heal debuff, not the marauder/sniper heal debuff) on a crit. Every single class in this game can hit for that much or more in one GCD. How on Earth could this be a survivability benefit? We generally cannot flash bang a target to throw 2 heals down (playing this spec correctly for DPS requires keeping a poison on the target for TA regrants) and even if we could, and they both crit, that is still only 12k hp once a minute (flash bang's cd). Both Mercenaries and Sorcs can drop instant heals on themselves (though the mechanics are different for the two) for the same amount in the same time frame (mercenary may be able to do it more often, not 100%). Both of these classes also primarily deal damage from 30m, while we are a MELEE class. Which brings me to point #2, how is not wanting to be smashed for 8-24k in a single GCD by a person/people NOT EVEN TARGETING YOU a play style? This is totally ridiculous. I am fine with Rage, honestly I am. The auto snares, the second root, the massive snare from force crush, the AOE pressure it offers, all fine. i disagree with the survivability boosts given to Marauders in the tree (IE lower CD on Undying Rage as well as knocking the health requirement down to a measly 1/4), but only if every melee DPS class can access 30% AOE DR. It should exist entirely to prevent ranged players from stacking on each other and to pressure tank/healer parings, not totally eliminate all other melee dps from competitive PVP. Without this talent, ignoring any other changes to survivability entirely, we will never be accepted in a competitive setting. Period.
This change will do absolutely nothing to make Scoundrel/Operative healers not clearly the best choice for arena healers, and will do absolutely nothing to boost DPS Scoundrel's survivability in PVP. This will do absolutely nothing to alleviate our survivability issues, and will do absolutely nothing to aid us in achieving success in regs, let alone competitive PVP.
Finally a small flicker of hope from this nonsense. The dodge/evasion talent must go, and the damage reduction talent needs to either be moved to tier one or removed entirely. Still wont knock them off the top, but is definitely one step closer.
What further investigation is required? The math has been explained in both class forums many times. The set bonuses are total garbage. Point black fact. This is not even just about the PVE bonuses, the PVP set bonuses are also total crap. If our survivability wasn't complete and total ****, there would be no benefit at all to using set bonus gear as a DPS scoundrel of either spec.
Yes, nerfing our moderate damage AOE ability that already costs 1/4 of our energy bar, has a ONE MINUTE cool down, and has an ENORMOUS delay while a HUGE target mark sits on the ground is clearly the correct answer to our mediocre DPS (Scrapper) and hilariously bad set bonuses (all specs). Good job.
Eric you basically said our mediocre burst will continue to be mediocre and we will like it.
Our survivability will continue to be retardedly bad and we will like it.
Our set bonuses will continue to be lolwat and we will like it.
Our big hitters hit for far less than literally everyone elses, our survivability is literally the worst in the game, and our set bonuses do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to increase damage IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. The fact that the gunslinger set bonus is used instead of ours is a clear indication of this.
Clear and concise enough? Not trying to be rude but ffs we've been saying this for almost 2 years, it's not like these are even recent concerns.