hi there,

 

Thy for take time to compile such a detailed list!

 

 

I investigated relic´s proc frequency directly based on your data, instead of doing further calculation on its DPS. Just to get rid of common crit which is usually (much!) higher than given in tool-tip. That´s the hard data have been shown in many (well, almost every) logs from all classes.

 

When only considering your last three dummy logs, dmg proc relic (dark spikes) works fine now. As for real boss fight I understand your problem. The point is, even with a higher crit (>30%) than your actual crit (24.27%), relic´s DPS is still lower than expected. Now I´m NOT saying that somehow dmg relic on a real boss fight doesnt work as well as on a dummy. For example, In SM 16 Golden Fury dark spike procs exactly as expected. But in HM 16 Golden Fury we would expect 88 procs, but we only had 78. So did you consider your miss chance and additionally removed hits from dark spikes in total hit to calculate hit-frequency? Btw, im not active in any 2.0 PvE. So is it possible that you have some serious dmg-stop or dmg-interruptions phases? Because that could explain the deviations u showed:

 

The hit-frequency we used in the formula is an average value (for experts, expecation value from a gaussian distribution). Its absolutely fine if u do 3 hits in first sec but then only 1 hit in next sec. Because these two frequencies will balance out in the end, so in average we will have 2 hits every sec (so 4 hits in 2 secs). By the same token, countless such frequencies can be balanced out. Except now where we have some dmg-stops or dmg-interruptions, so that we wont be able to counterbalance. In that case we have a statistical outlier in averaging. That will result in a lower hit-frequency and thus a lower DPS from relic. To fix this problem, we can only manually remove those dmg-stop phases afterwards. Both combat length and hit-frequency should be corrected, ofc only if these periods are known. For example, in a wz game u can expect a round 30% less DPS from dmg proc relic due to waiting period after death or any other dmg-stops, unless u adjust combat length and hit-frequency.

 

 

 

Well, actually that was only for warm-up. I also reinvestigated the proc behaviour of power relic. I checked the time interval between two power procs and found things like this:

 

08:18:09.058 Letoalexander gains Power Surge.
(...)
08:18:17.622 Letoalexander gains Power Surge.

 

 

And that´s only the shortest interval I found. My question is, are there any other abilities which can give you Power Surge? Otherwise power relic´s locktime will be 8.5 sec instead of 20 sec! That will explain why procs from power relic are higher than I calculated in every log (check spreadsheet I linked below). I want to point out here that I confirmed my calculation on power relic like all other relics before patch 2.3.

 

Ofc I uploaded all my calcs here in a spreadsheet for both relics to compare with real log data:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1yO39E99OmdGxrMHRSc0s4RkpSYmJtNmFidlUxakE#gid=0

 

As mentioned, I consider proc numbers instead of relic´s DPS. As u can see, I used your last three dummy logs. At this point everyone with any class is welcome to download this spreadsheet and check if my results are correct. All to do is copy some numbers from your parse log. The calc I did is based on combats without any dmg-stop phase (thats why I used total dmg divided by DPS to calc combat length). Very important is that we have to consider total miss chance and ofc hits from dmg relic itself! Thats why we have to input miss chance and relic´s proc number to estimate relic´s proc number. I further assumed that dmg spikes can also trigger power proc. Anyway I didnt investigate that.

Edited August 21, 2013 by X-Boson

So did you consider your miss chance and additionally removed hits from dark spikes in total hit to calculate hit-frequency?

Not sure if its correct but I as taking the total number of hits that torparse records divided by the time of the fight in seconds. I need to recheck all the logs to check if dark spike missed. Of the top of my head I don't think it did. (Oh I how I wish torparse would stop creaking )

 

Btw, im not active in any 2.0 PvE. So is it possible that you have some serious dmg-stop or dmg-interruptions phases? Because that could explain the deviations u showed:

Yes there is a damage interruption phase for the fights that I mentioned, the most serious of which is Titan 6. I was really lucky for those runs and didn't get any additional mechanics where I that required me to stop DPSing to deal with it. The strange thing that I find about my Golden Fury parses how even my DPS is even with the damage interuption phase.

 

My question is, are there any other abilities which can give you Power Surge? Otherwise power relic´s locktime will be 8.5 sec instead of 20 sec! That will explain why procs from power relic are higher than I calculated in every log (check spreadsheet I linked below). I want to point out here that I confirmed my calculation on power relic like all other relics before patch 2.3.

 

Balance shadows get self heals from their critical DoTs through a skill call focused insight. The log however seems to record this after the power surge is gained.

 

08:18:09.059 Letoalexander's Focused Insight heals Letoalexander for 683.
08:18:09.060 Letoalexander's Crushed (Force) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 1204* kinetic damage, causing 1204 threat!

 

Doing dailies, I've seen the SA relic proc in less than 20s. Interestingly as well, entering the exhaustion zone on the final TFB fight (the swampy water) actually forces the relic to auto proc.

 

If I'm not wrong, Engineering Sniper would also be seeing the same effect due to the self heals from being in cover through Vital Regulators.

 

Ofc I uploaded all my calcs here in a spreadsheet for both relics to compare with real log data:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1yO39E99OmdGxrMHRSc0s4RkpSYmJtNmFidlUxakE#gid=0

 

As mentioned, I consider proc numbers instead of relic´s DPS. As u can see, I used your last three dummy logs. At this point everyone with any class is welcome to download this spreadsheet and check if my results are correct. All to do is copy some numbers from your parse log. The calc I did is based on combats without any dmg-stop phase (thats why I used total dmg divided by DPS to calc combat length). Very important is that we have to consider total miss chance and ofc hits from dmg relic itself! Thats why we have to input miss chance and relic´s proc number to estimate relic´s proc number. I further assumed that dmg spikes can also trigger power proc. Anyway I didnt investigate that.

Hmm.. I'll probably need to go through all that a little later Edited August 21, 2013 by leto_cleon

Balance shadows get self heals from their critical DoTs through a skill call focused insight. The log however seems to record this after the power surge is gained.

 

Actually I want to know if there is an ability which can produce the same message "XXX gains power surge" in log. That would be the only explaination that power relic works fine. So the fact is locktime itself seems to be shorter than 20sec. So we dont have to further consider self-heal´s boost on proc chance at this point.

 

In that case, one relic is fixed, another one is broken.

Actually I want to know if there is an ability which can produce the same message "XXX gains power surge" in log.

From what I know, using the power adrenal also produces that message. Balance Shadows don't get an ability that says "power surge" in the log.

in summary: Yes, there absolutely are abilities in the game other than the relic proc that will appear as "Power Surge" in combat logs. Discrimination by unique ID, not textual name, is an easy solution.

Balance Shadows don't get an ability that says "power surge" in the log.

 

Power surge from the Underworld SA relic should be listed as [Power Surge {3244358165856256}] in the original text file. If you work from that file, or from software other than torparse, you'll note that every discrete action/ability/buff/etc has a unique identifier. That identifier is how, for example, a parser separates a sniper's DoTs despite the text reading "Poisoned (Tech)" for two of them.

Corrosive Grenade  --->  Poisoned (Tech)[b] {1703989619982592}[/b]
Corrosive Dart     --->      Poisoned (Tech) [b]{814909914874120}[/b]

Mercenaries also have an ability explicitly named Power Surge, which appears as Power Surge {2025218813984768} in log files.

From what I know, using the power adrenal also produces that message.

You didn't specify which power adrenal you use (and I didn't check your torparse links), but the Nano-Infused Attack Adrenal yields an effect of the same name:

[ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Nano-Infused Attack Adrenal {3261082768506880}]

You didn't specify which power adrenal you use (and I didn't check your torparse links), but the Nano-Infused Attack Adrenal yields an effect of the same name:

[ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Nano-Infused Attack Adrenal {3261082768506880}]

 

In terms of my own parse logs, I didn't use any adrenals for them. The power surge from my logs should only be coming from my Arkanian power proc relic.

 

In terms of a parse to cross reference the power proc relic on Balance Shadows, the top Balance Shadow parse (http://www.torparse.com/a/381118/time/1376324306/1376324606/0/Overview) can be used. Wild-berry uses the UW power proc, and he uses attack adrenals (http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6650716&postcount=294, has the AMR profile link).

 

And hmm... it seems I'm wrong the power adrenal doesn't result in "power surge" in the log.

 

Ofc I uploaded all my calcs here in a spreadsheet for both relics to compare with real log data:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah1yO39E99OmdGxrMHRSc0s4RkpSYmJtNmFidlUxakE#gid=0

 

As mentioned, I consider proc numbers instead of relic´s DPS. As u can see, I used your last three dummy logs. At this point everyone with any class is welcome to download this spreadsheet and check if my results are correct. All to do is copy some numbers from your parse log. The calc I did is based on combats without any dmg-stop phase (thats why I used total dmg divided by DPS to calc combat length). Very important is that we have to consider total miss chance and ofc hits from dmg relic itself! Thats why we have to input miss chance and relic´s proc number to estimate relic´s proc number. I further assumed that dmg spikes can also trigger power proc. Anyway I didnt investigate that.

 

In terms of other data points, you can also use my parse for Thrasher (http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/15/0/Damage+Dealt) and Cartel Warlords (http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/30/0/Damage+Dealt), I got lucky and didn't need to stop DPSing.

 

I re-checked the 3 operations dummy parse, none of the Dark Spikes missed. In the other two fights that I mentioned above Dark Spike also did not miss It'd actually be really sad if a dmg proc missed.

 

In Column G you might want to change its to "expected procs (power)"

Just curious, but would offhand hits also effect proc rates for the damage procs? Like would a SS slinger have a higher proc rate then a MM sniper?

Just curious, but would offhand hits also effect proc rates for the damage procs? Like would a SS slinger have a higher proc rate then a MM sniper?

 

It should be. Hits from offhand will be considered in parse. Thats why u will see 2x hits every Quickdraw as slinger, but 1x hit every Takedown as sniper. If u do an Ambush closely followed by a Takedown, u will only see one big dmg popped out. But in fact there were two hits, as shown in defeat message.

Edited August 23, 2013 by X-Boson

Lasted trimmed Operations Dummy parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/405196/time/1377877639/1377878043/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Total hits 1359

Total miss % 1.18

Total dmg done 1036713

DPS 2560.37

Relic´s procs (dark spikes) 74

expected procs (dark spikes) 73

real data 74

 

Untrimmed Parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/405196/3/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Total hits 2034

Total miss % 1.13

Total dmg done 1514473

DPS 2439.45

Relic´s procs (dark spikes) 112

expected procs (dark spikes) 111

real data 112

 

Must have been a real luck parse with an extra dmg proc

With no more damage proc relics in 2.4. Do you guys think that some of the newer relics will beat out the damage proc relics?

With no more damage proc relics in 2.4. Do you guys think that some of the newer relics will beat out the damage proc relics?

 

what do you mean by this exactly? i'm not sure i understand.

 

EDIT: i see the relics you're talking about. i'm guessing the damage proc relics are going away. it makes sense. each damage type was only useful for certain specs, so the same class switching between dps specs might want to change relics as well. also the SA relic was good for dps or healing.

and of course they've had a lot of trouble with the force / tech crits for them (looking at you, elemental transcendence)

 

 

also, unless they nerf power or something, i don't see how these new relics are balanced at all: 625 power vs 225 mainstat (with double duration and double lockout) vs 425 crit?

the only thing you're deciding is 'which runner-up will i pick for my second slot? crit proc or boundless ages'

i don't see why anyone would take the mainstat relic over any of them. the bonus is way too low.

Edited September 2, 2013 by oaceen

With no more damage proc relics in 2.4. Do you guys think that some of the newer relics will beat out the damage proc relics?

 

Are you referring to the new Obroan PVP relics? Then yes now its just a power proc and a mainstat proc as well as a crit/surge one.

So...if I'm reading this right...power clicky isn't the best dps. Perhaps maybe better for burst classes?

 

Edit: Tested it myself, Damage proc relic is far superior to power click. (Hybrid Sorc)

Edited September 5, 2013 by Hockaday

The damage proc relics favor dot specs due to extra hits, and therefore a good chance of proccing it closer to the ability coming off the 4.5 sec cool down. This goes doubly so for madness sorc, because your filler, force lightning, hits 4 times over 3 seconds, and procs additional hits with lightning burns.

Hi,

 

I managed to DPS quite a fair bit on my Balance Shadow over the weekend and thought of just cross checking the actual DPS I was getting from my Arkanian Relic of Dark Radiance with the calculated values. Are the much lower numbers (compared to the calculator) that I am getting in Golden Fury, Dash'Roode, Titan 6, Olok just due to the mechanics of the fight having a lull in the DPS? Or am I missing something?

 

Advanced Class & Skill Tree

Balance Shadow

 

Critical Chance / Critical Multiplier

24.27% (with prototype nano-infused stim) / 71.16%

 

Relics

Arkanian Internal Dmg auto proc (241) + Arkanian auto power proc

 

Power > DPS used in web calculator

0 (only checking for auto proc dmg contribution to DPS)

 

Live Parses

 

SM 16 Golden Fury

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/time/1376709632/1376709934/0/Overview

301s fight length, 705 hits, 2.34 hit frequency, 32.06% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 656 hits, 2.179 hit frequency

 

38.45 Dark Spike DPS, 49 hits, 20.41 % Dark Spike crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 47.70 (-9.25) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 46.87 (-8.42)

 

HM 16 Golden Fury

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/time/1376710624/1376711146/0/Damage+Dealt

522s fight length, 1289 hits, 2.47 hit frequency, 30.95% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 1210 hits, 2.318 hit frequency

 

38.7 Dark Spike DPS, 79 hits, 30.43 % Dark Spike crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 48.32 (-9.62) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 47.6 (-8.9)

 

 

 

SM 16 S&V Dash'Roode

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/4/0/Damage+Dealt

298s fight length, 592 hits, 1.99 hit frequency, 36.82% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 554 hits, 1.859 hit frequency

 

38.06 Dark Spike DPS, 38 hits, 34.21% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 45.77 (-7.71) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 44.91 (-6.85)

 

 

SM 16 S&V Titan 6

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/8/0/Damage+Dealt

272s fight length, 655 hits, 2.41 hit frequency, 33,74% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 616 hits, 2.26 hit frequency

 

38.92 Dark Spike DPS, 39 hits, 17.95% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 48.04 (-9.12) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 47.3 (-8.38)

 

SM 16 S&V Thrasher

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/15/0/Damage+Dealt

185s fight length, 529 hits, 2.86 hit frequency, 30.43% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 498 hits, 2.69 hit frequency

 

45.89 Dark Spike DPS, 31 hits, 19.35% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 49.88 (-3.99) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 49.24 (-3.35)

 

SM 16 S&V Operations Chief (trimmed to only final part)

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/time/1376716009/1376716146/0/Overview

136s fight length, 213 hits, 1.57 hit frequency, 33.33% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 195 hits, 1.43 hit frequency

 

39.3 Dark Spike DPS, 18 hits, 33.33% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 42.67 (-3.37) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 41.37 (-2.07)

 

SM 16 S&V Olok (trimmed only to final part)

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/time/1376716923/1376717222/0/Overview

299s fight length, 499 hits, 1.67 hit frequency, 34.87% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 459 hits, 1.535 hit frequency

 

36.85 Dark Spike DPS, 40 hits, 20% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 43.51 (-6.66) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 42.36 (-5.51)

 

 

SM 16 S&V Cartel Warlords

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/30/0/Damage+Dealt

346s fight length, 928 hits, 2.68 hit frequency, 33.19% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 870 hits, 2.51 hit frequency

 

45.34 Dark Spike DPS, 58 hits, 17.24% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 49.20 (-3.86) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 48.49 (-3.15)

 

SM 16 S&V Styrak

http://www.torparse.com/a/387822/34/0/Damage+Dealt

609s fight length, 1163 hits, 1.91 hit frequency, 34.65% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 1081 hits, 1.77 hit frequency

 

40.39 Dark Spike DPS, 82 hits, 24.39% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 45.25 (-4.86) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 44.28 (-3.89)

 

 

Operations Dummy Parse 1

http://www.torparse.com/a/388764/1/0/Damage+Dealt

320s fight length, 958 hits, 2.99 hit frequency, 30.06% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 904 hits, 2.825 hit frequency

 

47.9 Dark Spike DPS, 54 hits, 27.78% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 50.33 / excluding Dark Spike hits, 49.76 (-1.86)

 

Operations Dummy Parse 2

http://www.torparse.com/a/388764/2/0/Damage+Dealt

309s fight length, 997 hits, 3.23 hit frequency, 32.7% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 941 hits, 3.045 hit frequency

 

50.52 Dark Spike DPS, 56 hits, 25% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 51.09 (-0.57, whoa!!! ) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 50.48 (+0.02)

 

Operations Dummy Parse 3

http://www.torparse.com/a/388764/3/0/Damage+Dealt

382s fight length, 1184 hits, 3.1 hit frequency, 33.02% crit hits / excluding Dark Spike hits, 1118 hits, 2.93 hit frequency

 

47.56 Dark Spike DPS, 66 hits, 22.73% crit hits

*Web calculator Dark Spike DPS: 50.69 (-3.13) / excluding Dark Spike hits, 50.13 (-2.57)

 

Updated the comparison by excluding the dark spike hits from the hit frequency.

Today I took 1 Arkanian SA Relic and 1 Underworld SA Relic. I supposed that both share the same internal cooldowns, so only one of them could proc, last for 6secs and then be on cooldown for 14secs. But in fact what I found was this: It looks like one of them can proc, there then is a general lockout of 4.5secs. After that time, the second relic CAN proc. So it usually turned out that I had the "Power Surge" effect for 12secs, then internal cooldowns for 8secs.

Now the question: does this make Ark-SA+UW-SA the best combination ??

What do you theorycrafting pros say to this ?

Now the question: does this make Ark-SA+UW-SA the best combination ??

What do you theorycrafting pros say to this ?

 

Right now the relics are broken, and relics that should lock each other out don't. In that sense, yes, the best combination for DPS right now is technically Dread Forged SA + KD SA, but any two SA that aren't of the same tier should have the same effect and be BiS for your gear level.

 

Don't expect it to stick around, though.

Right now the relics are broken, and relics that should lock each other out don't. In that sense, yes, the best combination for DPS right now is technically Dread Forged SA + KD SA, but any two SA that aren't of the same tier should have the same effect and be BiS for your gear level.

 

Don't expect it to stick around, though.

 

It's not confirmed that they are really broken, because the new Dread Forged relics no longer have a "shares this limit with similar healing or damaging effects" in their description.

It might be intended.

OP should make an edit to include the new obroan relics, i'm interested to see how the crit autoproc and mainstat autoproc stack up to the previous accepted relics, and lack the motivation and skills to do the math myself.

 

awaiting hopeful news ^.^ cheers

OP should make an edit to include the new obroan relics, i'm interested to see how the crit autoproc and mainstat autoproc stack up to the previous accepted relics, and lack the motivation and skills to do the math myself.

 

awaiting hopeful news ^.^ cheers

 

hi there,

 

 

• 425 critproc is crap compared against 625 powerproc. Only in some rare cases 1 crit can be slightly better than 1 power. Anyway I wont convince ppl to use power instead of crit, but showing math results.
   
   
  
• 225 pri stats proc is equivalent to 65 static pri stats. Ofc regardless of +39 extra power on that relic. This is the best estimation.
   
   
  
• New PvE relic of each class (powerproc, healproc, powerclick) will give u round +11 DPS compared to its previous Underworld version.
  

Edited October 5, 2013 by X-Boson

So is that a confirmed yes that BIS for dps is 2x SA of different levels? and both PVE ones?

if this is the case.. I am digging out my relics again:cool:

I was out of the swotor seen for a few months, and I know there was a plan to get the procs "sorted" but I was not aware that it has been put back to 2x SA PVE relics work together again.

Yep, as long as its broken.

 

According to leto_cleon´s combat log, powerproc relic can proc once every 8.5sec instead of 20sec.

 

 

 

Well, actually that was only for warm-up. I also reinvestigated the proc behaviour of power relic. I checked the time interval between two power procs and found things like this:

 

08:18:09.058 Letoalexander gains Power Surge.
(...)
08:18:17.622 Letoalexander gains Power Surge.

 

 

And that´s only the shortest interval I found. (...)

 

So, the time between 2 "Power Surge" is off-time of proc. And he used powerproc & dmg-proc. However I didnt do further investigations. Basically all to do is to count your total "power surge" in combat log using browser´s search (Strg+F)

Edited October 6, 2013 by X-Boson

Yep, as long as its broken.

 

According to leto_cleon´s combat log, powerproc relic can proc once every 8.5sec instead of 20sec.

 

 

 

So, the time between 2 "Power Surge" is off-time of proc. And he used powerproc & dmg-proc. However I didnt do further investigations. Basically all to do is to count your total "power surge" in combat log using browser´s search (Strg+F)

 

The reason you're seeing the 8.5 seconds instead of 20 seconds is because there are separate lockouts for dealing damage and healing (check the healing tab in that parse). I see the same thing on my Watchman Sentinel all the time; it's often even less than 8.5 seconds between procs. Sometimes I'll see my Underworld SA proc, run for 6 seconds, and *immediately* refresh and tick for another 6 seconds; this is because it procs once on damage and once on my self heals.

 

Classes with no healing in their rotation (either self heals or cast abilities) will only see it proc once every 20 seconds.

We hope BW will not nerf them

 

gj btw!