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THoK-Zeus's Avatar

07.21.2013 , 02:16 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
You're stating those capabilities without really getting into what the other tanks get, not to mention that you're ignoring the fact that the OP asked about role and PvP/PvE versatility. Essentially, rather than just trying to quantify versatility of performance in a single role (and, honestly, as a tank, Guardians actually get more since they've got a lot more general combat utility; the only things that Shadows get that's actually an advantage is stealth and that's only really an advantage in PvP and while leveling) you should be looking at whether the class, as a whole, can perform in all 4 of the given pairings:

PvP + tank: All 3 can perform reasonably well, though Guardians are, de facto, the best main tanks whereas Shadows are only really node Guardians
PvE + tank: Shadows are at a substantial disadvantage because of massive spikiness problems; VGs and Guardians can both perform well, but, once again, Guardians are, de facto, the best tanks outright thanks to being borked as hell at the moment (tied with VGs for mean mitigation, best damage profile, best CD suite, best utility, all tanks have the same functional AoE and ST damage/threat, and easiest to play to boot)
PvP + DPS: VGs are pretty much worthless; Shadows are pretty good as Infiltration thanks to burst DPS; Guardians are amazing as either Vigi or Focus, with Focus being almost mindbogglingly simple for how well it performs
PvE + DPS: Once again, VGs are in a very sad state because they're lagging behind average DPS a fair deal; Shadows are in a worse state since they're lagging behind a *lot*; Guardians are in a very good place because, even if they're not explicitly top tier DPS, they've still got very good DPS that only lags behind the top tier by small amount.

If you go off of *that*, Guardians are, explicitly, the most versatile, based upon role and combat type. Guardians will excel at *whatever* you choose to do. VGs will only be effective as tanks. Shadows will only be effective as a specific subset of PvP tank (which is a *really* boring type) and PvP DPS with a single spec.

So, to answer the OP's question, it's Guardians, not Shadows or even Shadow tanks.

P.S. if you're going to put out a massive list of capabilities, stick to the things that *only* that class can do and how useful those capabilities actually *are* (hinthint: Phase Walk isn't *useful*, it's a gimmick) then either make note of what the class *can't* do or create similar lists for the other classes.
Just for your PvE Tank Section:
Guardians have some heavy disadvantages as a pve tank. They have the worst mean migation (look at dipsticks threat, look at combat logs..), As i shadow tank i need atleast about 200 hps less healing. So far i haven't seen a single parse with a pt/juggernaut who just needs 1,2 k healing on twh nim fight (same goes for 1,5k healing on dread guard fight....). Best parses from juggernaut tanks i know are 1,5k healing for twh nim fight.

Sin tanks also have the best single target dmg with powertechs (1,6 k dmg on thrasher) while Juggernauts (best parse 1,4 k) lack here aswell (I take thrasher fight here cause its the most consistent fight for tanks dealing dmg, but for styrak its the same best juggernaut parse: 1k, best sin and best powertech parse: 1,2k).

Next thing is that Juggernauts are the only tanking class which needs to be permanently in melee range to do good dmg. This is especially a heavy disadvantage for the dg nim fight (Kelsaras discharge....).

Next thing i want to know is why you think that Juggernauts have the best utility out of all 3 tanking classes. (Because of their aoe taunt Barrier?!). I don't think that can compete with the 5% healing increase, stealth rez.... from sin tanks for example.

Juggernauts have the best CDs i give you that but the difference between Juggernaut CDs and Sin Tanks CDs is not that big (50% m/r increase with a shorter cd for sin tank and a 2 sec invicibility for juggernauts) (25% dr with a 15% heal with a shorter cooldown for sin tank vs 40% dr for juggernauts) (saber reflect vs force shroud where saber reflect is better atm i think) (and Force Cloak vs nothing on jugger side there)

What do you mean with damage profile? Is that another word for spike dmg?

Migation: Sin > Powertech > Juggernaut
Cooldowns: Juggernaut > Sin > Powertech
Utility: Sin > Juggernaut > Powertech
ST dmg: Sin = Powertech > Juggernaut
AOE dmg/threat: Probably Powertechs can deal the most dmg with death from above and all their other aoe abilitys, sin tanks have the most consistent threat with 2 low cooldown high threat aoe abilities and juggernauts can do a very good aoe with saber reflect aswell. I think here ist an overall tie.

I don't see why Juggernauts are the best tanks (maybe the are the worst but definitly not the best). Powertechs have a better migation and deal more dmg. The spike problem from sin tanks is 16 man nim exclusive (on 8 man nim i never encountered the problem so far), and i agree that this spike problem needs a fix for 16 man nim. But for every other operation,.... sith assassins are still the best tanks, with powertechs and juggs coming afterwards.

Edit: For your PvE dps part: single target dps of all 3 acs is more or less excactly on par. (Just compare the combat logs on styrak and thrasher for single target dps). None of the classes is rly lagging behind in single target dps (A dummy fight is not a real fight...). AOE-vise it is a little different, but for the encounters its not important to have 4 aoe dps.