I must say that I do love combat, nice burst and more interesting and fun than watchman.

My usual opener is: 30 stacks of centering>Force leap>zealous strike>Zen>Valorous Call>Inspiration>Relic>Adrenal>PS>MS>BR(BS if proc)>PS>Dispatch>BS>BR>Force Camuflage. This is usually enough to take agro from any tank except the best ones(when I want to be mean and don't give back agro). I'm so used to taking agro that I got my pinky finger over force camouflage. The problem comes when the tank dies and I got to move the boss:D(BTW TC 16man HM hits like a truck if you take agro from the tank during the Isotope 5 release)

Also I wanted to add regarding a question earlier about gear, most of the BM and verpine gear have enhancements with high endurance and low power, you are better of with 66 adept enhancements.

But in exchange, you're nerfing the damage of both windows *considerably*. We would need to break out the expected value calculations to be absolutely sure.

 

I have no idea where the third hit of Zealous Strike is coming from. The script files claim there should be only two (one from each weapon). The third hit does seem to be coming very late, with the same damage values as an Ataru strike (though separate from an Ataru hit). Very confusing.

Zealous Strike is a confusing ability. It has three hits MH, OH, MH. It is also the only ability where the OH coefficient (-0.33) is different than the MH (-0.835). Its expected damage is roughly 96% of Strike's.

Zealous Strike is a confusing ability. It has three hits MH, OH, MH. It is also the only ability where the OH coefficient (-0.33) is different than the MH (-0.835). Its expected damage is roughly 96% of Strike's.

Torhead doesn't appear to include this information in the effect details for the ability. Are you mining the script files directly, or is there something in torhead that I missed?

Torhead doesn't appear to include this information in the effect details for the ability. Are you mining the script files directly, or is there something in torhead that I missed?

About a year ago when I first started theorycrafting for this class, I spent hours trying to figure out how to model this ability. After trying numerous combinations of variables, I arrived at what it had to be. This was then confirmed by someone at MMO Mechanics.

Hey KBN, since reading your thread, i decided to make the switch from Watchmen to Combat... mainly due to hitting a dead end wall with my Watchmen performance.

I'd love to know what gear you were in when you posted that 2850 Parse?

Currently i'm 2 Mod/Enh's/Implants and 1 Relic away from being full Underworld (with min-max'd Enh's already) and i'm currently averaging ~2750 without using my clicky relic on 3 separate 8-10min parses. The highest i've parsed so far is 2830 using my clicky relic and reuseable adrenal, so was just wondering how (probably badly) i compare in terms of gear with your parse.

I know i've still got a lot to fix in terms of watching for procs and properly choosing my filler abilities, just wanted to see where i sat in comparison gear wise.

Hey KBN, since reading your thread, i decided to make the switch from Watchmen to Combat... mainly due to hitting a dead end wall with my Watchmen performance.

 

I'd love to know what gear you were in when you posted that 2850 Parse?

 

Currently i'm 2 Mod/Enh's/Implants and 1 Relic away from being full Underworld (with min-max'd Enh's already) and i'm currently averaging ~2750 without using my clicky relic on 3 separate 8-10min parses. The highest i've parsed so far is 2830 using my clicky relic and reuseable adrenal, so was just wondering how (probably badly) i compare in terms of gear with your parse.

 

I know i've still got a lot to fix in terms of watching for procs and properly choosing my filler abilities, just wanted to see where i sat in comparison gear wise.

72 MH/OH. Verpine ear and implants (power/accuracy). Mostly 72 armorings with the 4pc set bonus (I think I have 2 or 3 69s there). All 72 mods with one crit mod (boo). About two thirds 72 enhancements (rest 69), with one crit/surge (also boo) and the rest power/surge. Dread Guard relics. Full 66 power augments.

I think I probably could have done a bit better, since I made two mistakes and had one bit of unlucky RNG on Opportune Attack. So a perfect parse would probably be around 2875. With lucky crits, I think I probably could safely see a 2900 in my current gear, but I wouldn't be able to reproduce it consistently.

Note that I do use my click relic in rotation, so that is included, and the 2850 parse has a single adrenal in the opener. I've parsed a 2850 without adrenals as well (since I'm cheap and usually don't use them), it's just that this parse happened to have one.

KBN, I love you for this. I've been struggling to wrap my mind around the best priority list for the spec for a while now. I was actually about to send you a message to pick your brain about combat spec (I want to update my old guide) before I saw this.

Just a quick question though before I go practice this myself, how frequently do you have Zen up when Master Strike is off CD? On the dummy with a single point in Valor it works out almost perfectly so that I have Zen + PS + Master Strike (amazing burst!), but in boss fights it doesn't work out quite so well. I personally always try to only use Master Strike with Zen, but is it worth using a full 3 second MS if you can't line it up?

Note that I do use my click relic in rotation, so that is included, and the 2850 parse has a single adrenal in the opener. I've parsed a 2850 without adrenals as well (since I'm cheap and usually don't use them), it's just that this parse happened to have one.

Thanks, so it seems like overall you were slightly less geared than me, which means i have quite a bit of work to do. I know my APM is a little low around 45-46, but not really sure where i'm losing it.... have mainly been focusing on getting the rotation down, so haven't fully integrated Valorous Call, Relic, Adrenal and Insp yet, which may help make up the difference.

Just a quick question though before I go practice this myself, how frequently do you have Zen up when Master Strike is off CD? On the dummy with a single point in Valor it works out almost perfectly so that I have Zen + PS + Master Strike (amazing burst!), but in boss fights it doesn't work out quite so well. I personally always try to only use Master Strike with Zen, but is it worth using a full 3 second MS if you can't line it up?

I actually had a similar question which i forgot to put:

Firstly, is there any benefit to delaying Zen by a few seconds so you can fit MS into a Precision Slash window? i.e. sometimes Precision will be ~5-6s away which means you can burn through the Zen stacks before Precision comes off CD... however if you wait 2-3s, you can go into Precision with 2-3 Zen stacks and do Precision -> BS -> MS ?

Also, which i guess is similar to the above question... sometimes Precision or the first BS will be the ability that triggers full stacks of Centering... i usually go Precision -> BS (Zen) -> MS -> TST (sometimes gets clipped out), is this the right priority to do? Or is it only worth doing if you pop Zen before Precision, so you can fit 2 abilities, each either side of MS ?

Thanks.

From my own experience, for combat, kinetic tempest>dark radiance!

By the way: PS+MS+BS is how I do it (and many other sentinels I know) it works well. I tried some stuff from your guide and not using MS in PS-window was a dps loss.

From my own experience, for combat, kinetic tempest>dark radiance!

 

 

By the way: PS+MS+BS is how I do it (and many other sentinels I know) it works well. I tried some stuff from your guide and not using MS in PS-window was a dps loss.

Yeah for most people it's PS+MS+BS, but what KBN argues is that using BS before MS allows you to get another BS into the 2nd PS window without delaying PS, which would be a dps increase over whatever else you try to put into that spot

If that's the case, why don't you put MS in the second Precision window and remove Dispatch?

Since the problem with going PS -> BS -> MS is clipping the last strike of MS (big no no).

How about:

[PS -> BS -> BR -> TST] -> whatever (HoJ procs) -> [PS -> MS -> BS]

The question then is, which does more damage, [DS -> BR] or [MS]

My personal damage numbers are:

DS - 4391-4975

BR - 2384 - 2754 + 711-799 (auto ataru proc)

MS - 8357-9777

Taking the upper limits: [DS->BR] = 8528, [MS] = 9777

Which makes it seem like MS wins out... although that's very rudimentary.... if someone (looks at KBN's math skills) could factor in the 7.5% extra crit that Dispatch has, maybe it would tip the scales?

EDIT: Originally stated Dispatch had 15% extra crit, when it's actually now 7.5%.

So, scrub question here... I don't have the skill yet since I took the points in the watchman tree before hitting the top of combat (mainly to increase the uptime of zen and increase my burst availability), and only having just hit 47, but I would think blade rush effectively replaces slash for all intents and purposes. Yet your expertly written write up and explaination seems to indicate the seperate uses of both skills. Why is this? Did I miss something or does slash just hit significantly harder and thus justify that precious keybind/ability slot?

Thanx in advance!

So, scrub question here... I don't have the skill yet since I took the points in the watchman tree before hitting the top of combat (mainly to increase the uptime of zen and increase my burst availability), and only having just hit 47, but I would think blade rush effectively replaces slash for all intents and purposes. Yet your expertly written write up and explaination seems to indicate the seperate uses of both skills. Why is this? Did I miss something or does slash just hit significantly harder and thus justify that precious keybind/ability slot?

 

Thanx in advance!

While slash does hit harder than Blade Rush based on tooltip numbers, the forced ataru form proc and everything else that procs from Blader Rush/ Ataru means that Slash is useless once you get Blade Rush.

While slash does hit harder than Blade Rush based on tooltip numbers, the forced ataru form proc and everything else that procs from Blader Rush/ Ataru means that Slash is useless once you get Blade Rush.

Excellent! That was what I was assuming, but I've gotten into some bad habits doing that in the past and just figured I'd nip it in the bud right now. I should be picking up blade rush in a level and a half and it will occupy the warm spot left by slash. Thanx for the quick reply!

MS>dispatch even with the 7,5% crit boost. I would only favor dispatch over MS when the boss is <30% life.

Actually figured out how to represent the crit damage increase... mind was drawing a blank yesterday.

Since I don't have my own Crit/Surge numbers on hand, assume:

Crit - 19%

Surge - 75%

Which I believe is what i'll be at or extremely close to when I get full Underworld (i think i'm actually at a hair over 19% crit already).

if we take these as probabilities, this means that for Master Strike (and the Ataru Form Proc?) there's a 19% chance to do 75% increased damage, equating to an overall 75*.19=14.25% increase in damage.

Dispatch has 7.5% extra Crit, which means overall Crit % is 26.5%, so the overall damage increase is a 19.88%.

Furthermore Blade Rush has 30% extra Crit damage, so the overall damage increase is 105*.19=19.95% increased damage.

Taking my upper limits from before, factoring in Crit chance:

DS - 5964

BR - 3303 + 913

MS - 11170

So:

[DS->BR] = 10180

[MS] = 11170

Which means that MS still seems to edge out DS->BR in a Precision window.

Conversely, as something just came to mind.

The Sentinel 2pc Set Bonus has gives an 8% Damage Boost to MS, which means that without it, your MS would technically only be 11170/1.08 = 10342, making it still slightly better than [DS->BR]... although difference would be even smaller at the lower stats where you wouldn't have the Set Bonus.

Anyone feel free to point out where i've gone wrong, since I know my Math isn't always the best... one thing i'm not sure about... i've used Melee Crit Chance for the Ataru Form proc, but not sure if it actually uses Force Crit? Furthermore, MS itself has its own % chance to proc an Ataru Form hit, meaning the gap would increase slightly.

EDIT: re-math'd after silly mistake.

There are a couple of things that seem off to me here. I don't have exhaustive math to confirm, still I think it is worth discussing:

Spec

 

The optimal spec for a combat sentinel is 4/36/6. This is a slightly odd build in that it only puts a single point into Valor. In exchange, we get 7.5% higher crit chance on Dispatch. As it turns out, this is a net DPS gain, and a fairly significant one (even with the 4pc set bonus). Zen comes extremely frequently even without this talent maxed out (you still get 1 point), and the crit chance on Dispatch translates into a very significant DPS gain due to the frequency with which you use the ability. It does unfortunately make you more RNG-dependent though (more on this later), so keep in mind that tradeoff. The 2pt Valor build is also viable, though slightly lower on average (by about 40 DPS).

Based on full 72s, including 0 crti rating, the expected damage of Dispatch is ~5,350. By increasing its crit chance to 7.5%, the expected damage becomes ~5,600 so a 250 increase. Since this happens every 20s, this equates to an increase in DPS of 12.5, right?

Thus the trade-off becomes an extra Centering/Fury per resource consuming attack vs. 12.5 more DPS. Roughly speaking 60% of your abilities consume resource. Assuming we are in a 5m parse and ignoring alacrity, we have 200 GCDs to use, which means 60% of this or 120 will be resource-consuming abilities. With 2-points in Valor/Short Fuse, you will literally gain an extra 120 Centering/Fury, which equates to 4 more Zens/Berserks.

With me so far? Now the comparison becomes the value of 4 Zens/Berserks vs. 12.5 DPS.

12.5 DPS over 300s is 3,750 more damage. Dividing by four tells us that the value of each Berserk must be less than 937.5 for 1-points in Valor/Short Fuse to be better. With +30% Alacrity you should be able to fit 4 attacks in the Precision Slash/Gore window (and Master Strike/Ravage benefits greatly from this more on this later). If we assume the extra attack is Strike/Assault we would see an increase in expected damage of ~2,000 per Zen/Berserk use. This equates to 8,000 more damage. So it seems that 2-points in Valor/Short Fuse is more than double the expected damage of only 1-point in the skill.

As a point of comparison for Watchman/Annihilation the value of each Zen/Berserk is ~3,000. I would be very surprised if the value of Zen/Berserk for Combat/Carnage was so different.

Master Strike

 

I should do a forum post: Master Strike, friend or foe?

...

[PS + BS > BR > BR > TST] > Strike > [PS + Disp > Master Strike > BS] > Agro Dump

 

That second window is KILLER. It doesn't line up like this very often, but when it does…holy cow. Note that the second window only requires 2 Focus to execute (with a net cost of 1), which means that the whole pair will require 6 Focus in your pool at the start, just like the standard Zen-less double PS windows.

 

Whenever you *can* use Master Strike under Zen, and especially under Precision Slash, and especially in the second window, you should do it. The damage boost is astronomically high.

I truncated your various comments about Master Strike/Ravege. I believe the simple guidance on this ability is to always use it within the Precision Slash/Gore window boosted by Zen/Berserk. PERIOD You should have Zen/Berserk available or within a few seconds of it every time this ability of off CD. (Hence the importance of 2-points in Valor/Short Fuse for more Zens/Berserks as well.) On a damage per GCD, this ability is second only to a buffed Blade Storm/Force Scream. Also, the ability hits 6 different times, which means 6 attempts at an Ataru-proc.

DS - 4391-4975

BR - 2384 - 2754 + 711-799 (auto ataru proc)

MS - 8357-9777

Factoring in surge and crit talents (assuming 77% surge and 23% base crit):

DS - 5422.22635-6143.37875

BR - 2888.4544 - 3336.7464 + 711-799 (auto ataru proc)

MS - 9837.0247-11508.5067

Stochastically, the game uses a uniform random selection between these values. Thus, we can take the arithmetic mean:

DS = 5422.22635-6143.37875 = 5782.80255

BR = 3112.6004 + 755 = 3867.6004

MS = 9837.0247-11508.5067 = 10672.7657

We could factor in the Ataru procs on DS and MS, but the results seem fairly clear:

9650.40295 < 10672.7657

The danger is the loss of OA procs. Assuming we don't have the BR buff up, DS has a 6% chance to proc OA, and BR has a 30% chance to proc OA, which gives us 34.20% overall. Master Strike has 6 hits, 3 of which have 77% accuracy. Which gives us: 1 - (1 - 0.06)*(1 - 0.06*0.77)*(1 - 0.06)*(1 - 0.06*0.77)*(1 - 0.06)*(1 - 0.06*0.77) = 27.93% overall. Going into this moment, we have had at least one attack that has proc'd Hand of Justice, which means an Ataru proc. So we have at least 30% odds that we already have OA. Assuming that attack was our one BR, we thus have a TST (2 hits) and a Strike (3 hits) which could also grant us OA. Thus, we have 1 - (1 - 0.3)*(1 - 0.06)*(1 - 0.06*0.77)*(1 - 0.06*0.9)*(1 - 0.06*0.9)*(1 - 0.06*0.9) = 46.87% going into the window.

Thus, with MS, we have 1 - (1 - 0.4687)*(1 - 0.2793) = 61.71% of having OA, and with DS > BR, we have 65.04% chance of having OA. If we don't have Blade Storm up, we fill that gap with a BR. For simplicity (since I don't have my numbers handy), we're going to assume the auto-crit BS does 5.6k damage before factoring in Precision Slash. Thus, we have to consider the following expected values:

0.6171*5600 + (1 - 0.6171)*3867.6004 = 4936.66419316

0.6504*5600 + (1 - 0.6504)*3867.6004 = 4994.35309984

Factoring this into the earlier calculations:

DS > BR = 9650.40295 + 4994.35309984 = 14644.75604984

MS = 10672.7657 + 4936.66419316 = 15609.42989316

So, MS is still a better option, though you will have BS a bit less at the tail end of that window. Interesting…

(note that including the expected Ataru damage that I skipped earlier would only increase the value of the MS window)

As a point of comparison for Watchman/Annihilation the value of each Zen/Berserk is ~3,000. I would be very surprised if the value of Zen/Berserk for Combat/Carnage was so different.

I did the math on Swift Slash vs Valor here:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6389529&postcount=180

The value of Zen/Berserk is really low for Ataru spec. It's good if you're always timing it with Precision Slash (as you seemed to be assuming), but it's not clear if you can actually do that reliably without losing DPS elsewhere, especially on a boss fight where the timing is variable due to raid damage and requisite utility usage (e.g. transcendence, or more commonly, inspiration).

I truncated your various comments about Master Strike/Ravege. I believe the simple guidance on this ability is to always use it within the Precision Slash/Gore window boosted by Zen/Berserk. PERIOD You should have Zen/Berserk available or within a few seconds of it every time this ability of off CD. (Hence the importance of 2-points in Valor/Short Fuse for more Zens/Berserks as well.) On a damage per GCD, this ability is second only to a buffed Blade Storm/Force Scream. Also, the ability hits 6 different times, which means 6 attempts at an Ataru-proc.

In order to get MS into a PS window without Zen and without delaying BS (which is a huge loss), you have to either trail the first window or lead the second window. Leading the second window is statistically preferable due to the lag on the third tick as well as the issue of procing the second window. I did the math on this in the previous reply to this thread.

I think your advice on this is mostly correct: use MS always within a PS window, unless you have to delay either MS or PS to achieve this end. MS does a large amount of damage in its own right, and it's *free* damage (which is a huge issue for Combat). If it comes off CD when there's still 6+ seconds on the natural PS CD, I'm not clear on whether or not it is worth using it right away. Note that the damage difference between MS and DS > BR is just 6%. The effect of a delayed MS is somewhat difficult to calculate. (disclaimer: the 6% number I'm quoting here isn't including the fact that you can use DS as the third ability in the *first* window if HoJ procs during that window and MS is up for the second one, which would widen the gap slightly)

Regarding Zen, I really don't think you can say it will be up paired with every Master Strike, especially in a real boss situation. If it were, then using it within a PS window every time would be a no-brainer. The problem is essentially two-fold: MS (30 seconds) drifts relative to PS (20 seconds), and Zen drifts relative to both. If all three aligned every time, we'd be GOLDEN. As it stands, we have to deal with the fact that they will only be in sync periodically (without deliberately delaying one or the other).

Factoring in surge and crit talents (assuming 77% surge and 23% base crit):

you can't reach that unless you drop power.

I am BiS full augmented and enhancements changed with 75 offhand and I am at 73/18

you can't reach that unless you drop power.

 

I am BiS full augmented and enhancements changed with 75 offhand and I am at 73/18

Cheat the numbers down then. I didn't have my character sheet handy. Lower crit chance and *especially* lower surge will decrease the damage percentage value of the Swift Slash talent (as well as the BR surge talent), so it pushes MS even farther into the lead.

I did the math on Swift Slash vs Valor here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6389529&postcount=180

 

Our calculations for Dispatch/Vicisous Throw don't line up.

I believe the inputs are:

• Amt Mod: 0.9
  
• Coeff: 2.85
  
• Min Std: 0.265
  
• Max Std: 0.305
  

Based on 72 hilts, ~3,000 Strength, 1,300 Power an 0 crit rating, the expected damage for a non-critical hit is:

1.9 * [(754 + 503)/2] + 2.85 * [(0.23 * 1300 * 1.05) + (0.20 * 3000 * 1.05 * 1.05)] + 2685 *[(0.265 + 0.305)/2] = ~4,750

Our crit rate with 3,000 Strength as well as companion buffs should be ~19%. Thus, our expected damage for Dispatch is:

4,750 * 19% * 1.70 + 4,750 * 81% = 5,381

With an extra 7.5% crit chance this becomes:

4,750 * 26.5% * 1.70 + 4,750 * 73.5% = 5,631

A difference of 250 damage or 4.6%.

How do you conclude - taken from your linked post:

The increased crit chance increases the average damage done by Dispatch by 36.94% (with your current gear).

Based on my math 2-points in Valor/Short Fuse is clearly superior...

EDIT: Also your Centering/Fury counts are off in the calculation you linked. With 2 points in Valor/Short Fuse, you should gain 4 Centering/Frenzy per resource-consuming attack. It is a fixed amount per ability. In your calculation, you show different Centering/Fury for each ability.