Color me stupid but I've noticed quite a few people saying that guardians are still kind of crappy for any sort of actual DPS outside of PvP. Since I've been playing Vigil since Beta, I can say I notice quite clearly the vast improvements made to my class.

Now what gets me is that I consistently see Sentinels and Gunslingers pull way ahead of us in DPS, which makes sense of course seeing how they're supposed to be the pure DPS class. What I don't get is how on more then one occasion I witness a sent or a slinger also show off their ability to survive through certain situations the same way a guardian is supposed to, since that was the supposed trade off. Sentinels and Slingers = Squishy mess on the stone pavement, Guardians = "Oh ****, pulled aggro, hahaha no problem!". So I want to double check and make sure I'm not seeing things and since most people on my server call me or say "Pretty damn good" or "At least you're halfway decent unlike that one focus spec retard" I figured it ain't me but the class rather that seems to be falling behind the DPS curb.

Basically, this is about whether or not Guardian Vigilance is viable for End Game Raiding (because I hear nothing of it. Almost everyone I know is after Sents and other stuff instead) and if not, what can be done to make us that way along with Shadows and Scoundrels and Vanguards etc etc (Because I'm of the belief that it should be two things that make a class good at something; the player's skill at said player's spec).

Me personally, I would love to see a talent or a passive skill that has every single hit the guardian makes deal a secondary force damage strike or something like that, kind of like Paladin's Seals from WoW or something, that or some actual CC for once.

Might just be rambling at this point. HAVE AT THEE INTERNET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I doubt Guardian DPS was ever designed to be inferior compared to a pure DPS class. In practise, the Guardian bests the Sentinel in Focus spec for the lack of accuracy penalty in the off-hand and the simpler way of buffing Force Sweep (instead of having to build Centering, you simply activate Combat Focus). On S&V HM 8-men I was highest DPS on every bossfight with a Juggernauth (Jedi Guardian) in Focus spec opposed to a Sorcerrer, a Sniper and a Marauder.

As for Vigilance, I only see two week points.

First, Overhead Slash and Plasma Brand should reduce the cooldown on Master Strike instead of having a chance to reset it for when it does not happen, it messes up rotation and DPS drops.

Second, the extra damage done by Burning Blade and Burning Purpose is ridiculously low.

I would fix these and Vigilance would be just as competitive as Watchmen or Combat (The Focus is already better).

Well then, I thank you guys immensely because I keep getting **** for being a guardian lol Also according to TORParse I average about 2500 dps on a target dummy on my ship with only force might on with a peak of 2700, so I think I'm pretty freaking good with full buffs in a raid XD Thanks you two, that helps.

Also, I agree that our other two dots apart from Plasmabrand are indeed abysmal and could do with a buff to their damage. Still though, tell me something like a paladin's seals wouldn't be baller as hell for us?

Go to the DPS leaderboard thread in the Flashpoint forums. In order to make the top 5 as a Juggernaut/Guardian you have to be able to pull over 2900 DPS, and 4 of the top 5 right now are doing it in Vengeance/Vigilance. The spec is absolutely viable end game - as it's what I play and I'm part of one of the top 16m progression guilds in the game and am one of those top 5 parsers.

Don't leave out the fact that the one Rage parse had some crazy high crit.

I would like to see a tiny increase in the bleed damage from Impale and Scream, but we aren't in a position where we need buffs.

I wish Master Strike would either deal damage over four ticks instead of three, so that you don't lose 50% of its damage if someone CC's you last second, or reduce the target's movement speed by 50% for 2 seconds on the first hit, so that people can't simply run out of range.

Vigilance's greatest weakness is also its greatest strength: Master Strike. It hits like a truck, but it roots the caster for 3 seconds, and while the two first hits are almost unavoidable, the third hit, which makes up 50% of the damage, can be interrupted with any CC. Even with Unremitting up (doesn't last long enough to secure a full channel).

They need to make Master Strike less of a coin-flip, either by spreading out its damage (four ticks would mean a 25% damage loss on CC instead of 50%), or by making sure all hits connect (snare application on hit). While Master Strike does have a pretty long range once activated, it's still possible to RUN out of range of the final tick.

It's the same issue Tactics Vanguards have with Pulse Cannon. It's such a big hitter, but it comes with so many disadvantages, it's not really reliable in PvP. Tactics Vanguard just have the added disadvantage that their channeled ability requires 3 GCD to set up. At least we can pop it every 9 seconds if the RNG gods want it.

I wish Master Strike would either deal damage over four ticks instead of three, so that you don't lose 50% of its damage if someone CC's you last second, or reduce the target's movement speed by 50% for 2 seconds on the first hit, so that people can't simply run out of range.

 

Vigilance's greatest weakness is also its greatest strength: Master Strike. It hits like a truck, but it roots the caster for 3 seconds, and while the two first hits are almost unavoidable, the third hit, which makes up 50% of the damage, can be interrupted with any CC. Even with Unremitting up (doesn't last long enough to secure a full channel).

 

They need to make Master Strike less of a coin-flip, either by spreading out its damage (four ticks would mean a 25% damage loss on CC instead of 50%), or by making sure all hits connect (snare application on hit). While Master Strike does have a pretty long range once activated, it's still possible to RUN out of range of the final tick.

 

It's the same issue Tactics Vanguards have with Pulse Cannon. It's such a big hitter, but it comes with so many disadvantages, it's not really reliable in PvP. Tactics Vanguard just have the added disadvantage that their channeled ability requires 3 GCD to set up. At least we can pop it every 9 seconds if the RNG gods want it.

That's true but 1) a lot of people blow their CC the moment we leap as they expect a Sweep (thank you, smashmonkeys ) 2) even if they don't, the CC requires absolutely perfect timing because the damage of the third hit is actually applied before the channel ends so they have a split-second window.

A snare on Master Strike would be overpowered combined with Unremitting; making the ability deal its damage over four ticks isn't a bad idea though. But I'm of the opinion that by increasing the damage on Overhead Slash and removing the sunder requirement from Plasma Brand, Bioware did quite a lot to improve Vigilance's PvP viability.

Haha, "we're all agreeing to making ourselves less likely to have our damage avoided and giving us a ton more damage over time. Let's do this!"

Vigilance doesn't need buffs, guys. Guardians and Juggernauts on the TorParse leaderboards right now are putting out over 2500 DPS minimum. We're viable without radically increasing our damage with no tradeoffs.

A small buff to Impale/Scream bleed damage, in the realm of 5-10%, would be reasonable, but again, certainly not needed. In most of my parses, 10% on those two abilities translates to about a 20 DPS increase - modest, but noticeable.

I'm intrigued by the idea of turning Ravage into a 4-tick attack, but I don't see this one as happening, as it would require some pretty significant changes beyond just number tweaking.

As for the extra damage on hit idea, they've already added that to Rage/Balance, so it would be slightly redundant.

Rage/Focus, Balance is for Consulars, and it's Force Lash, something you gotta spec into and frankly seems like a wee bit of a waste, but then again, how would I know.

Clearly my point got across. My guardian doesn't do anything but tank.

I wasn't arguing the quality of the ability; I was merely pointing out its existence. Whether it is any good or not does not change the thought that adding a similar ability to Vigilance/Vengeance would be redundant.

FWIW, it seems that particular ability accounts for 1.5-2% of Rage spec's DPS. Besides, where else are you going to put that point in Rage where it's not gong to be "a waste"?

In your opening post, you suggested a damage proc for each hit we make. I took one of my parses - 317 seconds long - and tried to come up with a number for that proc that would have some semblance of balance. I went ahead and treated all three hits of Assault as 1 hit for purposes of this proc.

Discounting bleeds, I had 214 (174 if we factor all three Ravage ticks together as one hit) attacks in that parse. At 200 damage per hit, that gives me an additional 135 (110) DPS in that parse, taking it to 3126 (3101) DPS. At 100 damage per hit, I get 3058 (3046).

That equates to approximately 4-4.5% of total damage at 200 damage/hit and ~2% at 100 damage/hit. I don't think that is a reasonable change (and yes, I know I used arbitrary numbers, but how down and dirty do we want to go with this?) to a spec that is already performing quite well..

Edited to remove sarcastic response.

As for the extra damage on hit idea, they've already added that to Rage/Balance, so it would be slightly redundant.

Rage balance FTW!

Rage balance FTW!

Right up there with Madness Juggs!

Two problems with Vigilance guardians, first is mobility. Too many classes are able to out kite you. The skill level involved to stay on a target makes the difficultly of the spec. Second is the damage over time. I know some of you will say you like the dots, others will hate it. The fact of the matter is vigilance dots are VASTLY inferior to other dots applied by other classes. 2/3 don't hit very hard and are easy to cleanse. The dots cant be made to crit or tick harder by applying another ability.

Imo, they need to rework the entire tree, remove the dots and give it something else. The current rotation is good and enjoyed by many (which is why we see these threads) so that can stay, just make it do something different.

How about this for a start: With every tick of MS, you apply/refresh both minor dots and cause them to auto-crit (the dots) that tick with MS? The auto-crits on the dots would only happen on the ticks that happen with MS, with maybe having the last tick of MS trigger a double tick of both dots.. This would add to burst in PVP without greatly affecting PVE DPS.

Personally, I think Vigilance needs some unique group utility talent/ability to really stand out from other melee specs. Something along the lines of Combat Focus granting a 10%-15% group alacrity buff for 10 seconds or so. There would be a variety of different uses for both offense and defense in PVP, while helping a lot in burst/burn phases for PVE.

Another fun idea I came up with for PVP is Guardian Leap causing anyone targeting you to untarget you.

Two problems with Vigilance guardians, first is mobility. Too many classes are able to out kite you. The skill level involved to stay on a target makes the difficultly of the spec. Second is the damage over time. I know some of you will say you like the dots, others will hate it. The fact of the matter is vigilance dots are VASTLY inferior to other dots applied by other classes. 2/3 don't hit very hard and are easy to cleanse. The dots cant be made to crit or tick harder by applying another ability.

 

Imo, they need to rework the entire tree, remove the dots and give it something else. The current rotation is good and enjoyed by many (which is why we see these threads) so that can stay, just make it do something different.

I look at the dots as being a fire and forget equivalent of the ataru proc and as such they are fine as they are - damage add for main abilities.

On top of the changes I wish to see which I elaborated on in another thread I would like a full self cleanse on guardian leap.

Vigilance doesn't need buffs, guys. Guardians and Juggernauts on the TorParse leaderboards right now are putting out over 2500 DPS minimum. We're viable without radically increasing our damage with no tradeoffs.

I'm assuming this is in PvE?

In PvP, we do not nearly have the DPS output to justify our lack of abilities against a Sniper/Gunslinger. They can knock us back, stun us, mesmerize us, and when our resolve builds up, they can still snare and root us. They're also immune to our leaps, so we have to run (snared) into melee range. Oh, and they can roll away like Sonic the Hedgehog if we get too close.

While we're scrambling to even get close, they can unleash their ridiculous burst damage from 30-35 meters away. Makes sense, yeah? Ranged classes should have higher damage output than melee classes, because staying in melee range is super easy and doesn't come with disadvantages.

I wouldn't mind so much if Snipers/Gunslingers weren't immune to pushbacks and interrupts while in cover. You can't even interrupt their insane burst if you do manage to get within melee range. They even have a 20-second CC immunity cooldown for when you try to Force Push/Stasis/Choke them.

Normally, ranged classes are given a high damage output to balance out the disadvantage of being immobile and susceptible to pushback, but Snipers/Gunslingers have no such disadvantage. They're immobile, yes, but their immobility comes with pushback, interrupt and leap immunity. Mercenaries/Commandos are immobile as well, and they get nothing.

I'm not saying we should have ALL the tools needed to beat a Sniper/Gunslinger every time, but right now we have NO tools at all. Our spec relies 100% on our ability to leap into combat. It grants us resources, it closes the gap to melee range, and it is what makes our main burst attack (Master Strike/Ravage) viable at all. Without leaps, we are nothing. Against Snipers/Gunslingers, we are free kills.

Edit: I realize we get Saber Reflect, which enables us to somewhat survive while trying to get into melee range, but most of the time, the Sniper/Gunslinger will just roll away when they see the animation. Even if I anticipate this and leap to them when they do break cover, they will stun, mez (if I break stun) and roll away. As soon as they get one or two rolls away, they pop cover, their resource cooldown and proceed to kite me to death again.

The only buff or change I would like to see is for Zen strike, allow Plasma Brand to have a 45% chance to reset Master Strike up from 30%, keep Overhead at 30%. I feel that the Capstone for our tree should offer a better chance considering the longer cooldown associated with it.

The ones pulling the very high 2800+ numbers are getting lucky with the RNG generator on their Master Strike resets. Some dummy parses go for as long as an hour+ to cut out a 5 min section where the RNG favored them so they could post a 2800-2900+ parse. While I applaud their perseverance and don't discount the fact that it was a 5 minute string of "Luck" that made that possible. The issue with asking for buffs is when people may see that and think "everything is fine" they fail to realize it is not consistent every time.

While I feel we are in a good place as DPS goes for vigilance, it needs just little extra OOMPH.

Haha, "we're all agreeing to making ourselves less likely to have our damage avoided and giving us a ton more damage over time. Let's do this!"

 

Vigilance doesn't need buffs, guys. Guardians and Juggernauts on the TorParse leaderboards right now are putting out over 2500 DPS minimum. We're viable without radically increasing our damage with no tradeoffs.

When the previous arguement was that MS needs a rework because it get's countered way to easily in PvP, you really need something other than "PVE dps is fine, no fix needed" to make a solid counter-arguement.

Edit: I would like to add that we shouldn't focus so much on how vigilance fares against snipers/slingers. In a 1v1 situation yes they will have their way with you, but more often than not, you will notHAVE to fight them 1v1, without the posibility of LoS'ing etc etc. If you want to fight a sniper, be smart about it, charge a nearby target, or LoS until he moves.

That being said, i still believe our ability to stay on target is a bit lacking, and at the same time having our "bread and butter" hardhitter being so easily countered, warrants a rework.

From a pvp stand point vigilance is ok but not great The only thing I would like to see is a second gap closer like zealous strike And a aoe buff through changing plasma brand to a cleave attack Hitting up to 3 players and applying damage plus the dot to all 3, this is an expensive ability and should do more for its cost.

It's ok in pvp if being a node guard is ok with you. It doesn't have the control, burst, or utility of combat. It has its little cc immunity of 4 seconds the first 1.5 of which are taken up by the leap gcd.

*refuses his turn to puff on the bong of pretention...then puffs anyway*

Honestly? I'd exchange this random ravage proc rubbish for an equivalent upgrade in generic bleed dps.

I'm in a warzone...my target is mobile...ravage resets, but I need a different attack. Oh I get mezzed. The target speeds away and line of sights from charge. Pick 100 different examples of how vig/veng gameplay could become less static. With the current over-indulgence with ravage/masterstrike animations, I'd really exchange the ravage reset for an increase in bleeds.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

*refuses his turn to puff on the bong of pretention...then puffs anyway*

 

Honestly? I'd exchange this random ravage proc rubbish for an equivalent upgrade in generic bleed dps.

 

I'm in a warzone...my target is mobile...ravage resets, but I need a different attack. Oh I get mezzed. The target speeds away and line of sights from charge. Pick 100 different examples of how vig/veng gameplay could become less static. With the current over-indulgence with ravage/masterstrike animations, I'd really exchange the ravage reset for an increase in bleeds.

 

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

Make the other two bleeds do in the realm of 500-600 per tick, and make the third tick on Ravage apply a Deathfield/Weakening Blast type of debuff, and I'm fine with leaving Ravage at 30 seconds. Just make sure that Rampage sill refunds Rage.