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Aurbere's Avatar

02.24.2013 , 09:10 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Ventessel View Post
And he surpassed them while giving in to the Dark Side more and more, thriving on the Clone Wars and his many battles. What does that say about the Jedi?
I don't see your point. Or maybe you don't see mine. Anakin Skywalker was ahead of most of the Jedi, even the ones who you believe to be hardened by war.

By himself. Just one dude, training the next generation of Jedi, eh?
For an order of precognitive warriors, that seems quite short sighted, doesn't it?
You really think Cin Drallig was the only combat instructor? The Order had several combat instructors. Even Master Yoda was teaching young Jedi. If you will recall, he rarely left Corucsant.

This was during the Clone Wars, the first experience with warfare in a millenium. Surely the Jedi had a more sustainable approach to training and running the Jedi Order during the days of more frequent warfare, especially when the Great Galactic War lasted 28 YEARS. That's older than Anakin Skywalker was when he became Darth Vader. The entire prequel trilogy could have been swallowed by this war.
You assume the Jedi have such an approach, but the Jedi had experienced 300 years of peace prior to the Great Galactic War. They were in the same position as the PT Order. The Jedi only had the time to properly train new students during the Cold War.

I'm not sure that I do. Sparring is fine preparation, but there's only so much it can do for you. Learning "on the fly" is actually just testing your training, and gives a warrior the best possible insight into his abilities by testing him to the ultimate limit. This is not something that can ever be replicated by training.
Perhaps I didn't explain fully. While you can't simulate life or death situations to the fullest, sparring can give the Jedi insight into their own weaknesses. The more experienced Jedi can point out the weaknesses in the inferior one's form, and guide them in dealing with that weakness. With the proper training, a Jedi can develop their skills to fully master their chosen form to its highest extent.

In the case of Count Dooku, he had mastered Makashi to such an extent that he had eliminated the forms weakness to dealing with multiple opponents.

George barely understands his own characters, let alone what constitutes rational motivations for them. Taken at face value, we can only assume that Yoda is one of the most arrogant Jedi alive.

He goes by himself to confront the Sith Lord who killed four other Jedi masters? He flat out rejects Obi-Wan's request to fight the emperor, and instead of saying "Why don't we team up on him and then go kill Darth Vader?" Yoda just heads off on his own to get the biggest smackdown of his life. So Yoda is neither wise nor a very humble Jedi. So much for those thousands of years of teaching, eh?
No need to insult the man. Just because you don't like him, doesn't mean you have to ignore what he has to say in HIS universe.

Now back to Yoda. He was the only one that had a chance to stop Palpatine, but they also couldn't ignore the newly annointed Darth Vader. How was it going to look when Yoda and Obi-Wan confront him? He's already distraught, and doesn't trust the Jedi. Obi-Wan was his friend, and had a chance to bring Anakin back. It's kind of like an intervention.

Not only that, but Palpatine could easily put Obi-Wan down.

I think perhaps you're taking my specific thesis here and interpreting it in very broad strokes. The bottom line that I'm getting at is:
Jedi who frequently faced enemy lightsaber duelists would have developed superior skills to Jedi who did not have that experience.

Furthermore, the PT Era Jedi lacked these opportunities to hone their dueling skills, while Jedi who lived in the OR Era (or later eras, such as the NJO or Legacy) would have had ample experience with lightsaber combat.
Canon seems to prove your bottom line wrong. However, I'm not saying that the OR Jedi are inexperienced, but I am saying that the PT Jedi are simply better. This has been said by multiple canon sources, and proved in the lore.

In The Making of Revenge of The Sith, George Lucas says "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine."

Note that two members of the PT Order are capable of competing with the most powerful Sith to ever exist.

I don't know about that, it certainly seems plausible that the Jedi became complacent and were more easily defeated because of it. Darth Malgus certainly seemed to think that the "cradle of power" had made the Jedi soft.
Because Malgus knows so much. Remember that the most powerful members of the Order at that time were away at Alderaan. He took advantage of the peace talks to attack the Jedi Temple. He caught the Jedi off guard, because they were under the impression that peace was being discussed. In fact, the Jedi were more concerned about the Sith making an attack on Alderaan than anything else.

The Sith certainly didn't twiddle their thumbs. But there's no reason to suppose that two Sith, on their own, were going to be able to discover more about the Force than hundreds of Sith Lords studying and experimenting with it. They certainly discovered more nasty, dark secrets but it would have been quite slowly.
Except it is noted that the Sith had collected an impressive collection of Dark secrets, and Plagueis had discovered immortality. Obviously they had to start from scratch, but by the time Sidious rolls around, the Banite line had collected a vast archive of knowledge. And Sidious had studied it all.

In short, I do not accept the premise that NOT fighting will somehow increase an organization's knowledge of combat.
I don't think you understand. The PT Jedi had access to the teachings of their predecessors, they learned from the past generations. This gave them great knowledge of the lightsaber forms. And remember that the Jedi weren't starting from scratch. Veterans of the New Sith Wars taught new Jedi, and these teachings passed down to new generations, and each generation made improvements to the forms.

Where does it say that Yoda was preparing for war?
Also, it certainly seems like Yoda knew what the Banite Sith were all about. He is distinctly aware that there is always "a master and an apprentice" ... so he's clearly not expecting Malgus to swoop in with a dropship full of Sith Warriors. So I guess we're back to wondering if Yoda was senile, or just rather dense?

Which Jedi, exactly, were preparing for all out war with the Sith? As near as I can tell, the Jedi mostly believed that the Sith were extinct, but that if they did come back, it would be only two of them...
ROTS novelization says that Yoda had been preparing the Order to fight the last war.

And as to how Yoda knows about the Rule of Two. The Jedi were told by Kibh Jeen. The "Two there are, no more, no less." were his last words. Kibh was a fallen Jedi and his words were deemed the ravings of a madman by the Jedi Order. However, the Jedi began preparing for another war prior to the Battle of Naboo.

Now, concerning the "Sith have been extinct for a millenia". It should be noted that the Jedi Order tried to cover up the return on the Sith until they could properly analyze the situation. So we could assume that they were in denial or didn't expect the Sith so soon.

Personally, and this is my opinion, I believe that Yoda thought that the Sith were in hiding to prepare an army, as Kibh's death was over one hundred years before the Clone Wars.

But I suppose this debate will continue endlessly at this rate. Personally, I have seen this debate pop up so many times that I have grown tired of it. We have indisbutable facts that show that the most powerful members of the PT Order are some of the best of all time. We have an indisbutable fact that its Grand Master is the most powerful Jedi the Order had seen up to that point.

Again, I want to stress that the OR Jedi are not weak, but they are not as powerful or as skilled as their PT counterparts. Of course this isn't an absolute rule as there are exceptions, but that number is few.

Personally, I think that an OR knight could hold his own quite well against a PT Knight. Take your average Jedi Knight from both sides. The OR Knight would hold his own quite well, but the PT Knight would have more experience in the subtle nuances of lightsaber combat, as the average PT Knight will have studied multiple forms.

For me, I think I'm done with this particular debate, at least until I decide to rejoin the debate. But I don't see how this is going to be settled. Just remember that Jedi don't flourish during war, they flourish during peace times. This is most evident in the PT, but also in other eras. The TOR era Jedi saw a similar era of peace, though not to the same degree as the PT Jedi. I think that's the biggest point that you (among others) need to consider.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus