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Ventessel
02.23.2013 , 03:28 AM | #23
Well, I read your story. All literary criticisms aside (it was hard to keep track of which Jedi was doing what at times) this was an enjoyable diversion. I will attempt to go over it piece by piece and debate the ideas you bring up during the duel.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Good arguments all around, I was bouncing back and forth in my opinions for a while there.

After reading all this my conclusion is simple. PT beats OR

I will play out a theoretical scenario in short story form to illustrate why,

Its a dreary, cool morning. The sun has begun to rise and a brisk wind floods the green valley. A nondescript hooded figure cloaked in brown robes enters the small cradle of pasture among the towering peaks. Another figure, wearing ratty tan robes and armored leggings, strides in from the opposing corner to meet the brown clad man. As they near, each one slows to a deliberate pace. They begin to remove the loose portions of their distinctive outfits and stop several meters away from each other. They two men draw their sabers and salute the other.
I appreciate you writing up an intro to this, it was nice to visualize. The salute seems to imply a very formal duel, though. Perhaps I'll provide a counter-scenario under more chaotic (read: battlefield) circumstances.

It appear that Tan is the OR Era Jedi and Brown is the PT Era Jedi, correct?
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
They begin to circle an imaginary spot between the two combatants. Tan clad makes the first move. They hum of his saber cuts through the morning air and the clash of the warriors blades send sparks across the space between them. The Brown clad is thrown on the defensive and, having mastered Soresu, parries each attack deliberately and precisely. Tan continues to press, carried by the energy he feels from his use of Juyo. Brown allows this, maintaining his impeccable defenses he gives ground slowly. Feeling his opponent give ground, Tan begins to drive even more, landing his blows swiftly while searching for an opening. Not finding one, and beginning to become frustrated, Tan disengages and makes several flips away to take stock of his situation.
This is plausible, but also remember that one of Juyo's explicitly stated strengths is that it can frequently slice through the defenses of even a Soresu master. The duel could end here if the OR Jedi, being a veteran of these confrontations, moves around the PT Jedi's defenses (remember: Juyo is both unpredictable and aggressive, always aiming for the killing stroke) and delivers a fatal blow to his throat or chest.

Perhaps the PT Jedi's Soresu is enough to keep him alive for now...

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Realizing his opponents aim to frustrate and tire him, Tan calms himself and sets himself to begin the next round with Ataru. However this time, Brown is the aggressor. He charges with a force propelled leap at Tan, attempting to land broad heavy blows.
So, has Brown switched away from Soresu for his attack? Your later statements imply he is now using Djem So (a wise move, as that form is designed for saber combat, balancing offense and defense). It is completely illogical for The OR Jedi to begin using Ataru here, however. Juyo is the perfect foil for Soresu, since it provides enough of a defense to keep the Soresu duelist from easily finding an opening, while aggressively creating openings in the defenses of your adversary. Better strategy here is to press the attack with Juyo and go for the quick, opportunistic kill.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Tan's nimble Ataru stance allows him to easily avoid this juggernaut of power coming at him.
Slow down there, pal. Ataru is noted for it's extremely poor defensive qualities. Also, it's physically exhaustive to begin with, and so is quite poorly suited for prolonged battles (you know, the sort you would experience on a battlefield) so it seems to run against the experiences of an OR veteran combatant.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Brown though, will not relent. He continues to attempt hammering blows to Tan and subdue him. Tan however, seeks to use this to his advantage. As Tan uses his acrobatics to get behind Brown's wide swings, Brown pivots. Coming about, he smartly parries and manages a smooth riposte aimed for Tan's exposed midsection. The now Makashi fighter flows into a series of moves that further pick apart the hastily composed Juyo defense. Brown transitions once again into Djem So and hammers away at Tan. By now both parties are exhausted, yet Brown is fueled by his superior force power.
This is what I mean, using Ataru will exhaust you too easily (Qui-Gon learned this the hard way against Maul) The inexperienced duelist might employ Ataru because he's been trained in it, but the veteran warrior will stay away from such a shaky form unless he has an overwhelming reason to use it.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
The battered Tan knows now, when it seems he is at his weakest, is the time to strike. A firm force push throws an unsuspecting Brown 30 meters and Tan leaps directly behind his attack in an attempt to kill Brown in his surprised state. Brown is suitably surprised, yet his instincts in the force prevail. He rolls to his right and blasts the incoming Tan with a push of his own. Tan lands 10 meters away. Brown, having now separated himself from Brown, sets himself into a Soresu stance once again. Tan, his favored Juyo.
Again, the fancy acrobatics rarely result in a kill, unless you've got the drop (heh heh) on your adversary. Recall Malgus fighting in the Jedi Temple, his dramatic leap only gave the Jedi he was fighting more time to react. (Kid should have known better, this was pretty late in the war... but he's an arrogant Sith Lord with a flair for the dramatic, oh well).
As for the stances assumed here, good choices both. Soresu is efficient in its defense, conserving energy. However, when you're getting tired, you know you've got to end things quickly, so Juyo makes sense if you're experienced with it. We're basically back at square one, however... the veteran combatant would probably have seen this coming, and stuck with his initial strategy instead of getting all acrobatic.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
Now, Tan is wounded with a gash to the midsection and is bleeding while Brown likely has a cracked rib and bruised sternum. Tan assaults Brown again, this time more deliberately, and continues to search desperately for something to give. A minute passes with no relenting, no pause, no respite. The combatants are locked in a dazzling display of saber prowess. Steely determination borne of uncountable conflict and force augmented tirelessness borne of endless repetition, who will give out first. Almost inevitably, Tan's wounds, caused by Brown's impeccable ability to seamlessly swap styles, force his body to give out first. As darkness clouds his vision, an unexpected counter-offensive by his opponent catches him off-guard. Brown's saber comes in high, blows raining down upon Tan's head. Brown finally bats away Tan's final defense and neatly beheads Tan.
Bleeding from a saber wound?! I'm going to pretend you didn't say that (lightsabers cauterize their wound almost instantly). Also, the Jedi preferred to kill by impaling with the end of a lightsaber whenever possible. Decapitation was seen as a last resort, since it caused the most disfiguration when compared to kills made to the torso/abdomen.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
In the grisly aftermath, Brown gazes upon his fallen foe. Shuddering, he moves slowly with great pain, to bury the dead, and honor a brave warrior. The survivor does not finish the shrine to his enemy until dusk. And as the sun sets on this day, so does it set on a fallen member of a powerful order, lost to a member of the generations to come who built upon and improved that which was refined in the heat of battle so many centuries before.
More in line with a Jedi's teachings, here. However, were this an actual battle, the PT Jedi would not have had a chance for respite. If you burn out after one engagement, it's going to be quite easy for any old rookie to take you out thirty seconds later. Or worse, a stray blaster bolt you might have deflected could slip past your guard if you're wounded and exhausted. One of the most important principles of combat (mostly learned through experience) is how to conserve your stamina.
Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
TL: DR (to long: didn't read)

The Prequel Jedi's knowledge of more forms allowed him more options and more ability to counter a limited opponent. Also, as you see late into the battle the thing that finally killed the OR jedi was his weaker force ability and lack of knowledge in multiple forms*. In battle, stamina is easily augmented by the force and the PT jedi easily has more force power, hence more stamina despite the OR jedi's battle toughened body.

I attempted to include the OR jedi's wisdom, reflexes, experience, cleverness, and aggressiveness in this. The PT jedi had patience, reactions, force power, and strategy on his side.
I agree with you on the aggression and cleverness, although I'm not sure you represented the experience factor too accurately... however, that's mostly semantics. The duel on the whole was plausible, although it seemed more like a set piece engagement between two PT Era Jedi at times.

When you say the PT Jedi "easily" has more Force Power, I feel like you're making an assumption here. While the PT Jedi is likely to have more subtle control of the Force, and a more developed knowledge of its theories and philosophy, he is no more likely to have a greater raw aptitude for the Force than his OR counterpart. For the sake of argument, we can say that on average, a PT Jedi will have greater knowledge of Force techniques and a wider arsenal of powers that he regularly practices.

Quote: Originally Posted by StarSquirrel View Post
*The OR jedi who is constantly fighting will learn 1 or 2 forms and stick with them if they work, he doesn't have time or need to learn a third or fourth if 1-2 works. He gets really good in those 2 due to constant use but not much more.
Well... that's kind of my point. The one or two forms he knows really work. As in, they have allowed him to kill numerous adversaries, who likely utilized the full spectrum of lightsaber forms (not individually, but collectively he is more likely to have fought a variety of duelists). He gets better and better with his chosen forms every time he fights.

The PT Era Jedi has been taught to use an adaptive, flexible style. He switches between forms as he sees fit, and while this gives him a greater flexibility, it can also have drawbacks. There is such a thing as "paralysis of choice". When confronted with many options at once, under stressful conditions, your reactions are often slower than when confronted with only a few choices. This is one of the core principles you must adhere to when instructing hand to hand combat. It is infinitely better to teach a few simple, effective techniques that can be applied in any number of situations than to learn a large number of more specific techniques.

Also, it is extremely unlikely that the PT Era Jedi has fought a practitioner of Juyo before. Aside from sparring sessions with Mace Windu or one of the other few Jedi permitted to learn Juyo/Vapaad, PT Era Jedi have no exposure to this lethal, efficient style. That's a large part of why Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi have such trouble fighting against Darth Maul. There's a good reason that Mace Windu used Juyo almost exclusively (it was deadly and flexible), and he was considered the best, or second best duelist in the entire PT Order.
The Heir to ChaosAdded Chapter Sixteen-- 17 APR 2013
“People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ~ George Orwell