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L-RANDLE
05.13.2012 , 06:11 PM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing. You dont even check the posts I provide you with tests. You read what you like, just like the links to the sites you provided with the "4% difference between old and new BM expertise", when it was infact 7% units and roughly 30-33% increase.
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post

Flagging isnt enough to trigger expertise, learn it and stop arguing.
Yes... I do check the links I post because I know EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY...."EXPERTISE IS KING", but if you look at the provided equations (which is the only REAL value of those links), see what expertise does to your main stat/sec/end. Your right... Let’s stop arguing over when expertise triggers, because in really doesn’t matter when it is on and when it is off. This will be a long read(and I am sorry about that), but if you actually care SO much about people being “undergeared/not enough EXP” in PvP, then read it ALL. I am also sorry for the delay RL and mother’s day were priorities…
The heart of our debate and this thread is about:
"Does Expertise mean anything in PvP?" &
"Should people be FORCED to wear recruit gear or higher
Your Stance: YES & YES
Recruit~=Rakata(Maybe).....Because expertise means SO much, no way BM~=RAKATA
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Not only do I deal 16.74% more damage to you while you wear PvE gear, but you deal 14.34% less to me aswell. Making the gap HUGE between PvP recruit gear and pretty much any PvE gear.
edit: And this comparison is between recruit gear and pve gear, the gap gets even bigger between BM gear and pve gear where stats are even higher. But where the gap is much smaller between recruit and BM. Just a few odd % difference while its up around 20%, 17% and 13% BM vs PvE gear.
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
Maybe if it was recruit vs rakata, maybe.

My Stance: TIER FOR TIER? NO & NO...
BM~=Rakata, so expertise don't mean squat, if you have the PvE equiv.
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Assuming main stats are the same? Yes.
Decreased main stats? Not so much..
Quote: Originally Posted by SneakyErvin View Post
As I posted earlier. I can make some proper PvP example of those too by just adding expertise and trauma.
With 12% expertise:
2980 becomes 2444, 3000 becomes 2460.
Without expertise:
2980 becomes 2086 and 3000 becomes 2100.
I would be dumb to argue you on this, it looks 100% accurate, but……
You used the same base numbers (2980/3000) for each of your calcs, and that is where our signals are getting crossed. There is NO way to get a 2980/3000 base in both calcs with the same tier gear. IT’S IMPOSSIBLE to get 12% EXP without sacrificing that 2980/3000 number (assuming this is the PvE baseline).

Let’s assume the trauma buff/expertise is on, since it is the only time we agree that both are active. Since you are opposed to the links of the screens I will explain each one in detail (even though they are still there if you/anyone wants to look). I am limiting this examination to a two-piece swap. BM for RAKATA, which you say is a significant decrease in PvP effectiveness. Here are the global buffs on ALL SCREENSHOTS: FORCE VALOR(+5%MAIN), FORCE MIGHT(+5%DB), RAKATA RESOLVE STIM.

Here I am with a RAK Stalker Bracer, and RAK Force-Master Relay Earpiece and Deliverance TT rating.
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...RAKATAEAR1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...ATABRACER1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...RRAKDELTT1.png
EXP=638(7.52% Heal Buff)
Deliverance on tooltip = 3132-3274
In about 2 hours of WZs……
Best heal hit: 2534(but I have a ton more screens with other values).
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...TORRAKHEAL.png

Here I am with a BM Stalker Bracer, and BM Force-Master Relay Earpiece and corresponding Deliverance TT rating..
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...WTORBMEAR1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...RBMBRACER1.png
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...ORBMDELTT1.png
EXP=787(8.98% Heal Buff)
Deliverance on tooltip = 3112-3254
In about 2 hours of WZs……
Best heal hit: 2570(twice, but I have a ton more screens with other values).
http://s1253.photobucket.com/albums/...WTORBMHEAL.png

Let’s look at it from a couple of different levels.

Fundamental Level 1:
BM Pieces (Deliverance on tooltip = 3112-3254): *.7898= 2458-2571 (*screenshot shows I almost hit the max according to the calc here and also shows that the tooltip is about right because I never hit anything outside of this range).

RAK Pieces (Deliverance on tooltip = 3132-3274): *.7752= 2428-2538 (*screenshot shows I almost hit the max according to the calc here and also shows that the tooltip is about right because I never hit anything outside of this range).

I swapped two, same tier pieces, and “gained” +1.46% EXP healing bonus, but lost 5.7 in Bonus Healing. Yes, there was a difference, but again, the MAXIMUM swing will be 32HP in this two-piece swap (as evident by the calc’d trauma debuff/EXP buffs and the tooltip values, which I think we agree on), so instead of the “1.46% gain,” it’s lower (more like 1.3% gain).
BM(MAX)= RAK(MAX)*1.013

Does the gap increase the more pieces you add? Even on a linear scale (remember this when we talk on the abstract level), where that type of exchange happens (~1:1), if I changed ALL 14 pieces, we are talking about a 224HP swing on healing. This is not game-changing.

If healing is this way, so is damage. The contributions are different, but the same tradeoff is there. It has a “higher percentage gain than healing”(+2.63% EXP damage), but it ALSO removes a corresponding amount of damage bonus. So on my BEST attack, this is the highest potential you can have (I’ll post the screens if you like).
BM Pieces (Force in Balance on tooltip = 1772 -1836): *1.164= 2063-2137
RAK Pieces (Force in Balance on tooltip = 1787-1851): *1.1377= 2033-2106
Again a ~32HP at a 2EA piece, tier for tier exchange (224HP@ 14 pieces). This is why I said…………………….
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage?
Because really that’s what it boils down to….

Same thing for mitigation. I lost 310HP for 1.98% increase in mitigation. If you play my BM toon , and I play my RAK toon, the 1.98% mitgation on my highest potential is 42HP difference TO you. It’s hard to quantify this, but I just don’t see how that change is worth 310HP. Especially when you introduce this…
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Here let’s assume trooper buff:
5% increase PvE gear= 12,474HP
5% increase PvPgear = 10,773HP
Now instead of 1620K difference; we are @ 1701K difference....
SAME THING FOR SMUGG BUFF, SAME THING FOR KNIGHT BUFF, ETC, ETC...
Assuming the trooper buff was on in my pics:
BM END: 1535
RAK END:1568
Now that HP loss is 330 for the same mitigation value you gain. Now factor in PvP medpaks operate on a 35% of your max HP. What is mitigation really doing for you?

Fundamental Level 2:
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
Do you want 16% increase on 600 bonus damage or 700 bonus damage? That does not even account for contributions of main stat to crit rating.
BM Crit Rating: 24.58%
RAK Crit Rating: 24.78%
It's small, but this is just a two piece trade off. The 14 piece tradeoff will make this gap bigger, but in FAVOR of PvE gear… I am fairly confident EXP does not contribute to Crit rating. Even if you increase your output though expertise, the burst chance decrease in PvP does make it a tougher decision to choose (myself, I choose PvE/Crit rating because battles don’t last long enough for that small increase to matter (among other reasons to be named later)). In PvP, “BURST IS KING”…

Abstract Level 1:
As I stated in the fundamental levels, the difference is minor, but all of that assumes a 1 for 1 tradeoff. You also have to understand the more pieces you add, the less in contributes to all three PvP expertise stats (a simplified analysis: 1:1, 1:1.05, 1: 1.11, 1:1.22, 1:1.48, etc). This is what the “diminishing returns” was describing. It’s called exponential decay of a log(expertise) function. There are three equations that have exponential decay, expertise is one of them. While it changed in 1.2, I have shown it still means little, which the ONLY logical conclusion is Pre-1.2 PvP gear was a NERF, compared to its PvE breathren, tier for tier.

Abstract Level 2:
From a BiS standpoint? I guess that’s for another thread…
Quote: Originally Posted by L-RANDLE View Post
And I agree too, but that is under the premise that they were adding in EXP to the mod/enh slots and not changing the base stats on anything else... So.... I now use the PvP mod/enhancements, so let’s use me versus you as an example:

Pre-1.2-I use RAK, you use BM
RAK MODS = BM MODS
RAK ENH = BM ENH
RAK ARMOR= BM ARMOR(????)
.....so the mods and enhancements are a wash, but still have 240HP and +18 main stat more per piece.

Post 1.2= I use RAK with BM MODS/ENH, you got a "buff" of 50EXP (if you kept your original mods, which was a bad joke for players like me).
RAK MODS = BM MODS
RAK ENH = BM ENH
RAK ARMOR= BM ARMOR(????)
.....so the mods and enhancements are a wash, but still have 240HP and +18 main stat more per piece.
So in the end, it STILL boils down to the damn armor slot. I still roll my rakata gear and enabled me not to HAVE to change gear to PvP. I have showed on all three levels its a nerf... that why I said they should have kept the armor slot locked and buffed it to +100EXP. If some at BW said expertise is better than PvE gear, yes it is, but since we can remove those same pieces, the root difference is still negligible for the loss of HP you have to take...
PvP Gear Viability? Read this first.
Tired of being broke? Stop being Felica and read this.
I'm not trying to be Rambo..... I'm trying to be Ray Tango