Hey there everyone.

I'm at a bit of a loss. I am brand new to SWTOR and upon first starting up the game I chose a Jedi Guardian, without looking into it or checking any background info. In WoW (Played from Vanilla all the way to Cata), I played a paladin tank and loved the AoE ability while still being a tough plate wearing tank that was capable of single target threat as well.

It seems like the Jedi Guardian class resembles the Warriors of WoW and really don't have anything to offer on the DPS front. Which, is a bit upsetting because this being a new MMO, I might want to try a new role rather than be forced into nothing but tanking. Aesthetically, the Jedi Guardian has everything I want; a single lightsaber, and an awesome Robe/Heavy Armor look. But when it comes down to gameplay mechanics I'd basicallylike the option to DPS a raid or two as well.

That frame of mind brought me to look at the Jedi Shadow/Sith Assassin.

They seem to have what I want, solid DPS and above all else, AOE tanking! However they wear light armor (skirts) and use the double bladed saber that I'm not too fond of. Their game-play seems to be a mix of Stealth/Force Abilities/Melee abilities which is interesting, and I'm not sure how I like it.

I really don't know which class to go for, and any In-sight from some endgame Shadows/Guardians would be fantastic; how is tanking in end game content/flashpoints/etc, what is the style of tanking for both classes, how does the gameplay feel later on. Thanks for any/all help!

I love my shadow. She can pretty much handle the gold elites (she's lv 28) on her own in my story.

To be honest the way I do my talent tree is probably not recommend by most people but I set it up based on my play style. I don't copy someone's else because unfor they never work for me.

I have points in the balance tree and some it the others as well.

As far as my armor it works well for me as i have the mod armor that I upgrade with armor, mods and enchancments for my character and I also upgrade my saber and my companion as well.

For the most part when I'm questing on my own i take Tharan (he's a healer) with me which helps in my healing.

But for me it works great.

Good luck.

But when it comes down to gameplay mechanics I'd basicallylike the option to DPS a raid or two as well.

Guardians are perfectly capable of providing raid DPS. They are not a pure tank class, just like Shadows are not a pure DPS class. Gear and spec matter more than AC to determine your role.

They seem to have what I want, solid DPS and above all else, AOE tanking!

If you honestly think that Shadows are effective AoE tanks, you're sadly mistaken. Shadows are the *worst* AoE tanks in the game atm, both from a mitigation and a threat generation standpoint. The Slow Time buff did some to mitigate the AoE threat problems we have, but a well played Guard (re: knows how to use Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash) is going to easily outpace a Shadow on AoE threat *and* damage.

However they wear light armor (skirts) and use the double bladed saber that I'm not too fond of. Their game-play seems to be a mix of Stealth/Force Abilities/Melee abilities which is interesting, and I'm not sure how I like it.

If you don't think you're going to like the hybrid melee/force playstyle of the Shadow or the DBLS, I doubt you're going to enjoy Shadows as DPS *or* tank.

Thank you Kitru, I've read your other thread on Shadow tanks, and I really do enjoy seeing people out there who "Fight the good fight"

If you don't think you're going to like the hybrid melee/force playstyle of the Shadow or the DBLS, I doubt you're going to enjoy Shadows as DPS *or* tank.

This is a shame since I played a Paladin in "That game" and they had a nice mix of spells and melee, but I just didnt like the flow of it when I played my shadow.

However I very much appreciate your input in my thread, and you as well as others have helped me decide. I appreciate all the help.

Guardian DPS is good and they bring a important armor debuff that stacks with another armor debuff. Sorry it's bland but I 1)play empire and 2) dont remember the ability name. Just know that Juggernaut armor debuff stacks with one of the other classes.

So if you like your guardian and want to play damage spec don't worry about it. You'll be fine and provide a good debuff while doing comparable damage to other advanced classes.

If you honestly think that Shadows are effective AoE tanks, you're sadly mistaken. Shadows are the *worst* AoE tanks in the game atm, both from a mitigation and a threat generation standpoint. The Slow Time buff did some to mitigate the AoE threat problems we have, but a well played Guard (re: knows how to use Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash) is going to easily outpace a Shadow on AoE threat *and* damage.

I'm still not sure why Kitru keeps preaching that Force Sweep > everything a Shadow tank has to offer. Whirling Blow may cost 40 force, but it triggers PA (which helps with single target threat on big bosses), hits about half as hard as a double strike (but hits EVERYTHING in melee range) and doesn't have a cooldown, or build up time.

Force Sweep costs 3 Focus (untalented) has a 15 seconds cooldown (untalented) and while it may hit about 80% harder then whirling blow, if you use Whirling blow twice in the time a guardian tank uses Force Sweep (which you should be doing anyways, to maintain AoE threat) then you'll be doing MUCH more damage, and thus threat then the guardian.

That isn't even including Slow time, and Force Breach, both of which are AoE debuffs that deal decent damage.

Your basic AoE rotation for a shadow tank is Force breach and slow time to maintain the debuff, then whirling blow. Use saber strike in between to maintain force, and if you have tougher mobs then use any PA procs when they accure (but not more then once every 10 seconds) then use TK Throw when you need health (with HSx3)

If you flat out refuse to use Whirling Blow because it does low damage for its high force cost, and then want to say 'Well Shadows don't have any AoE threat' then that is your problem. While 40 force may seem like a lot, its not that massive when you have 10.4force/second regeneration. You can literally use 3 whirling blows in 12 seconds (the fastest cooldown on Force Sweep) and still manage to gain about 5 force afterwards, and 3 Whirling blows is MUCH more damage then 1 force Sweep.

Im of the same opinion. Although the napkin math may show different ..... from personal experience I have yet to come across a Jugg that can hold anything more than his focus target agaisnt my Darkness Assassin AoE spam. I really do put Assassin AoE in the middle of the three.

PT's on the other hand yeah are just AoE machines...

from personal experience I have yet to come across a Jugg that can hold anything more than his focus target agaisnt my Darkness Assassin AoE spam. I really do put Assassin AoE in the middle of the three.

A vast majority of the tanks that I've met are complete and utter idiots and a large number of those idiots have grouped themselves around the most "obvious" tank class: the Guardian/Juggernaut (obvious in that they are pretty much the standard applied most other MMOs with a 1 handed weapon, a shield, and heavy armor). Since a large number of people that expect simplistic tanking mechanisms concentrate on a class is no reason to say that the class itself is actually sub-par. If most of the tanks were focused on Vanguards, I'm pretty sure that anecdotal evidence would say that VGs have terrible AoE threat even though we know this simply not to be true: any intelligently played VG is going to completely wipe the floor with the other tanks.

Now, as to the napkin math, it's important to realize exactly *how* amazing Force Sweep *is*. Talented, it's on a 12 sec CD and deals 45% more damage than base, along with a 9% Str advantage from talents. Just going off of the standard damage listed by TORhead, Force Sweep would deal roughly 2484 damage every 12 seconds for free (Courage pretty much guarantees that you're going to have the 3 stacks within 2 seconds if you're in *any* reasonable tanking scenario) and a single GCD; Slow Time deals 1027 damage (1541 threat) every 8 seconds for 30 Force, and Force Breach deals 470 damage every 15 seconds for 20 Force. So, ignoring the Whirling Blow and Cyclone Slash (I'll get to those later), Guardians get 207 damage/sec for .25 Focus/sec and 12.5% animation consumption while Shadows get 160 damage/sec (224 threat/sec) for 5 Force/sec and 28.75% animation consumption.

Now, with just a cursory analysis, we can see Guardians generate more damage and only marginally less threat than a Shadow with no resource cost (or, at worst, a marginal cost) and drastically less animation time. This does ignore the size of the relevant AoEs, but, in my experience on my Guardian (yes, purely anecdotal), the fact that the AoE is smaller is almost perfectly counteracted by the fact that it is centered on you rather than the target (so you can explicitly choose where it is centered rather than requiring the target be near its friends).

Now, on to the Cyclone Slash v. Whirling Blow comparison. First off, Whirling Blow deals less base damage than Cyclone Slash, regardless of what TORhead says: Cyclone Slash has a coefficient of .88 while Whirling Blow has a coefficient of .71 (coefficients are directly tied to base damage since they are proportionate to the basic damage dealt by your basic attack). Furthermore, the talents that augment the given abilities are drastically different: Applied Force is a 6% increase in damage whereas Pacification is a 15% increase in damage, so the end coefficients between the two are ~.75 and ~1.0 for Whirling Blow and Pacification, respectively. Purely based off of the coefficients, Whirling Blow is *vastly* inferior to Cyclone Slash. As to the costs, it takes about the same amount of time to regenerate the given resources to use the abilities: Guardians take slightly longer to regenerate the focus, but they have many more Focus free abilities as well as general Focus generators coupled with lower comparative costs compared to the maximum resource so, honestly, it's easier to spam it than Whirling Blow.

All in all, Guardians blow Shadows *out of the water* for AoE threat. The only reason that a Guard/Jugg will have *worse* AoE than a Shadow/Sin is if the Guard/Jugg is exceptionally poorly played such that it can't take advantage of the excellent tools at its disposal. Player skill matters. If *any* tank runs into a fight and expects to faceroll its way to AoE threat, it's going to be disappointed; that more Juggs are inexperienced and follow this mentality compared to Shadows (which tend to be of a higher caliber players since it's a much more demanding playstyle) isn't indicative of an inferiority of design for Juggernauts.

Now, as to the napkin math, it's important to realize exactly *how* amazing Force Sweep *is*. Talented, it's on a 12 sec CD and deals 45% more damage than base, along with a 9% Str advantage from talents. Just going off of the standard damage listed by TORhead, Force Sweep would deal roughly 2484 damage every 12 seconds for free (Courage pretty much guarantees that you're going to have the 3 stacks within 2 seconds if you're in *any* reasonable tanking scenario) and a single GCD; Slow Time deals 1027 damage (1541 threat) every 8 seconds for 30 Force, and Force Breach deals 470 damage every 15 seconds for 20 Force. So, ignoring the Whirling Blow and Cyclone Slash (I'll get to those later), Guardians get 207 damage/sec for .25 Focus/sec and 12.5% animation consumption while Shadows get 160 damage/sec (224 threat/sec) for 5 Force/sec and 28.75% animation consumption.

 

Now, with just a cursory analysis, we can see Guardians generate more damage and only marginally less threat than a Shadow with no resource cost (or, at worst, a marginal cost) and drastically less animation time. This does ignore the size of the relevant AoEs, but, in my experience on my Guardian (yes, purely anecdotal), the fact that the AoE is smaller is almost perfectly counteracted by the fact that it is centered on you rather than the target (so you can explicitly choose where it is centered rather than requiring the target be near its friends).

 

Now, on to the Cyclone Slash v. Whirling Blow comparison. First off, Whirling Blow deals less base damage than Cyclone Slash, regardless of what TORhead says: Cyclone Slash has a coefficient of .88 while Whirling Blow has a coefficient of .71 (coefficients are directly tied to base damage since they are proportionate to the basic damage dealt by your basic attack). Furthermore, the talents that augment the given abilities are drastically different: Applied Force is a 6% increase in damage whereas Pacification is a 15% increase in damage, so the end coefficients between the two are ~.75 and ~1.0 for Whirling Blow and Pacification, respectively. Purely based off of the coefficients, Whirling Blow is *vastly* inferior to Cyclone Slash. As to the costs, it takes about the same amount of time to regenerate the given resources to use the abilities: Guardians take slightly longer to regenerate the focus, but they have many more Focus free abilities as well as general Focus generators coupled with lower comparative costs compared to the maximum resource so, honestly, it's easier to spam it than Whirling Blow.

I feel your comparing the wrong abilities together.

See, Force Breach, Slow Time and Cyclone Slash all have a target cap of 5. And Cyclone Slash is melee CONE power, meaning it might not be possible to get all 5 targets (say, if some are behind you)

Whirling Blow, and Force Sweep have no target cap, so they both could hit the same number of mobs, as long as they are around you.

This throws your numbers off quite a bit, especially if you look at the actual base coefficient values, and then do the damage calculations correctly.

Not all bonuses affect coefficient damage, and trying to shoe horn all your damage bonuses into a coefficient value either undervalues the bonuses themselves, or overestimates your end result. You need to find out for sure what talents boost what powers before you flat out say 'Yeah, its the difference between .75 and 1.0, and obviously the 1.0 is better.'

Yes, Force Sweep hits like a mack truck, but it only hits that hard, every 12 seconds at best. When you compare that to Whirling blow, being used 3 times over 12 seconds, Whirling Blow overcomes the increase in damage by a pretty large margin, even accounting for your messed up cofficient values. (1.35 base for force sweep, times 1.45 (bonus damage) = 1.9575 vs .71 Base for Whirling blow times 1.06 (bonus damage) times 3 (used 3 times in 12 seconds) = 2.2578)

And, while Force Sweep is free (due to Courage) with your base 10.4 force/second regeneration, 3 Whirling Blows are free too, within the same 12 seconds. (10.4 * 12 = 124.8, so you actually gain 4.8 force without accounting for DBSD at all)

Please actually compare the proper powers to themselves before trying to say that the Guardian is out right better in every way.

[if you honestly think that Shadows are effective AoE tanks, you're sadly mistaken. Shadows are the *worst* AoE tanks in the game atm, both from a mitigation and a threat generation standpoint. The Slow Time buff did some to mitigate the AoE threat problems we have, but a well played Guard (re: knows how to use Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash) is going to easily outpace a Shadow on AoE threat *and* damage.

I disagree with you. I have yet to have any problems with my Shadow. I have yet to have a problme with any threat generation on my shadow. You have to know how to play your shadow and have to know your play style to play a Shadow effectively. Copying what someone else does will not work as each player has a differnet style

With the exception of one or two guardians I wind up keeping the agro on my shadow more than they do and they also die quicker than I do.

What it bascially comes down to is knowing your weakeness and knowing your play style.

I disagree with you. I have yet to have any problems with my Shadow. I have yet to have a problme with any threat generation on my shadow. You have to know how to play your shadow and have to know your play style to play a Shadow effectively. Copying what someone else does will not work as each player has a differnet style

 

With the exception of one or two guardians I wind up keeping the agro on my shadow more than they do and they also die quicker than I do.

 

What it bascially comes down to is knowing your weakeness and knowing your play style.

And I haven't had any threat problems on my Shadow either. It still doesn't change the *fact* that Shadows are outright *worse* at AoE threat compared to Guardians and VGs. The capacity isn't a binary condition: you aren't either amazing or worthless. Shadow are simply the worst by a *very* large margin. The fact that a single power with *way* lower resource cost and animation consumption is even *competitive* with the 2 AoEs that Shadows have is pretty telling. Even if we *did* have similar AoE threat gen, we are still burning *way* more resources to accomplish the same goal (which also means we're getting less damage on primary targets while we struggle to wait on the AoE).

And I haven't had any threat problems on my Shadow either. It still doesn't change the *fact* that Shadows are outright *worse* at AoE threat compared to Guardians and VGs. The capacity isn't a binary condition: you aren't either amazing or worthless. Shadow are simply the worst by a *very* large margin. The fact that a single power with *way* lower resource cost and animation consumption is even *competitive* with the 2 AoEs that Shadows have is pretty telling. Even if we *did* have similar AoE threat gen, we are still burning *way* more resources to accomplish the same goal (which also means we're getting less damage on primary targets while we struggle to wait on the AoE).

Ya know, if you didn't have me on ignore you could very easily see just how wrong you really are. Shame at that though.

Animation time MEANS NOTHING. Here is the thing Kitru, Force Sweep is used every 12 seconds, for free. But, besides a melee cone attack that may not even hit all the mobs you need to hold aggro on (due to them being behind you) that costs Focus (which needs to be built up, and popping cooldowns to build focus so an attack might work is just plain stupid) what else can a Guardian do to hold threat on AoE?

Its basically Force Sweep - wait 12 seconds - Force Sweep again. And hoping that it is good enough.

Really Kitru, spend more then 5 minute glancing over the first pages of either the Guardian forums, OR the Juggernaut forums and you'll see that AoE is a MAJOR issue for them. Because all they really have to use is Force Sweep/Smash.

Shadows can spam Whirling blow 3 times in the 12 seconds that Guardians are waiting on Force Sweep, and build 30% more threat from 30% more damage doing it. That isn't accounting for ANYTHING else the Shadow may do (like Force Breach, or Slow time)

PBAoE and TAoE (point blank, and targeted Area of Effect) abilities are INFINITELY better then Cones. Even if said cone hits 3 times are hard, the fact that you don't have to reposition very much for TAoE or PBAoE powers makes them far more useful.

So I'm kind of right back where I started in that I don't know what to play.

I don't want to play a tank with horrible AOE capabilities. But I don't want to play a tank who struggles to get healed and has no mitigation.

A vast majority of the tanks that I've met are complete and utter idiots and a large number of those idiots have grouped themselves around the most "obvious" tank class: the Guardian/Juggernaut (obvious in that they are pretty much the standard applied most other MMOs with a 1 handed weapon, a shield, and heavy armor). Since a large number of people that expect simplistic tanking mechanisms concentrate on a class is no reason to say that the class itself is actually sub-par. If most of the tanks were focused on Vanguards, I'm pretty sure that anecdotal evidence would say that VGs have terrible AoE threat even though we know this simply not to be true: any intelligently played VG is going to completely wipe the floor with the other tanks.

 

Now, as to the napkin math, it's important to realize exactly *how* amazing Force Sweep *is*. Talented, it's on a 12 sec CD and deals 45% more damage than base, along with a 9% Str advantage from talents. Just going off of the standard damage listed by TORhead, Force Sweep would deal roughly 2484 damage every 12 seconds for free (Courage pretty much guarantees that you're going to have the 3 stacks within 2 seconds if you're in *any* reasonable tanking scenario) and a single GCD; Slow Time deals 1027 damage (1541 threat) every 8 seconds for 30 Force, and Force Breach deals 470 damage every 15 seconds for 20 Force. So, ignoring the Whirling Blow and Cyclone Slash (I'll get to those later), Guardians get 207 damage/sec for .25 Focus/sec and 12.5% animation consumption while Shadows get 160 damage/sec (224 threat/sec) for 5 Force/sec and 28.75% animation consumption.

 

Now, with just a cursory analysis, we can see Guardians generate more damage and only marginally less threat than a Shadow with no resource cost (or, at worst, a marginal cost) and drastically less animation time. This does ignore the size of the relevant AoEs, but, in my experience on my Guardian (yes, purely anecdotal), the fact that the AoE is smaller is almost perfectly counteracted by the fact that it is centered on you rather than the target (so you can explicitly choose where it is centered rather than requiring the target be near its friends).

 

Now, on to the Cyclone Slash v. Whirling Blow comparison. First off, Whirling Blow deals less base damage than Cyclone Slash, regardless of what TORhead says: Cyclone Slash has a coefficient of .88 while Whirling Blow has a coefficient of .71 (coefficients are directly tied to base damage since they are proportionate to the basic damage dealt by your basic attack). Furthermore, the talents that augment the given abilities are drastically different: Applied Force is a 6% increase in damage whereas Pacification is a 15% increase in damage, so the end coefficients between the two are ~.75 and ~1.0 for Whirling Blow and Pacification, respectively. Purely based off of the coefficients, Whirling Blow is *vastly* inferior to Cyclone Slash. As to the costs, it takes about the same amount of time to regenerate the given resources to use the abilities: Guardians take slightly longer to regenerate the focus, but they have many more Focus free abilities as well as general Focus generators coupled with lower comparative costs compared to the maximum resource so, honestly, it's easier to spam it than Whirling Blow.

 

All in all, Guardians blow Shadows *out of the water* for AoE threat. The only reason that a Guard/Jugg will have *worse* AoE than a Shadow/Sin is if the Guard/Jugg is exceptionally poorly played such that it can't take advantage of the excellent tools at its disposal. Player skill matters. If *any* tank runs into a fight and expects to faceroll its way to AoE threat, it's going to be disappointed; that more Juggs are inexperienced and follow this mentality compared to Shadows (which tend to be of a higher caliber players since it's a much more demanding playstyle) isn't indicative of an inferiority of design for Juggernauts.

I like how you go off the damage listed in torhead for Force Sweep vs. Slow Time, but go off coefficients for Cyclone Slash vs. Whirling Blow. I also like how you list 45% Force Sweep damage from talents but neglect Slow Time's 30% damage increase and Force Breach's 15% damage increase. I also like how you neglect to include Combat Technique's internal damage proc.

You also act as though the two classes have similar resource systems, which is absurd.

Assassins regenerate 15.6 force per GCD and an additional 3 force every GCD "if you're in any reasonable tanking scenario".

Juggernauts gain 1 rage every two GCDs, an additional 2 rage every three GCDs if you sacrifice a hard hitting move, 1 rage every GCD if you sacrifice a hard hitting move, and 6 rage every fourty GCDs.

It doesn't matter if Smash and Sweeping Strikes(Cyclone Slash) hits hard. Their AoE DPS is completely shot due to their resource and cooldown limitations. That still stays true even if you compare the AoE of a Juggernaut that starts the fight with a full rage bar.

It also doesn't matter how much damage an AoE does if it can't even hit a target. Smash has half the radius of Wither/Discharge, 3m less than Overload, and Lacerate is a 360 degree AoE vs. Sweeping Slash's cone AoE.

I like how you go off the damage listed in torhead for Force Sweep vs. Slow Time, but go off coefficients for Cyclone Slash vs. Whirling Blow.

The base damage listed on TORhead for Cyclone Slash is completely off because it has separate calculations for Sentinels (dual wielding) and Guardians (single weapon), so it can't be trusted, so I went with the coefficients to more easily compare them. When I get my Guardian to 50, I'll start yanking the info from the game to give the most accurate information possible. As it stands, I did the best with the tools at my disposal.

I also like how you list 45% Force Sweep damage from talents but neglect Slow Time's 30% damage increase and Force Breach's 15% damage increase.

I like how you just made the comment rather than reading the numbers and doing the math to see that I actually *did* include the 30% additional damage for Slow Time and 15% additional damage for Force Breach. If you want to call me on something, try to prove it before you spout it off.

I also like how you neglect to include Combat Technique's internal damage proc.

Which only affects a single target every 1.5 seconds for a tiny amount of damage? Seriously? You could more easily fault me for not factoring in the additional 9% Str that Guardians get since that has a bigger impact.

You also act as though the two classes have similar resource systems, which is absurd.

Assassins regenerate 15.6 force per GCD and an additional 3 force every GCD "if you're in any reasonable tanking scenario".

Juggernauts gain 1 rage every two GCDs, an additional 2 rage every three GCDs if you sacrifice a hard hitting move, 1 rage every GCD if you sacrifice a hard hitting move, and 6 rage every fourty GCDs.

They also don't follow even remotely similar resource *consumption* models. Everything a Shadow does eats Force. Probably half of what a Guardian does eats Focus. Having actually *played* both at a high level, I can actually say that Guardians have a *much* easier and readily available resource model. It's virtually impossible to make a direct comparison between the two, but, honestly, it's not as if they are so *vastly* different that they cause you to play completely differently: both styles force you to intersperse low damage attacks into your strings regardless of how you play. Guardians do so by requiring you to use a specific attack (Sundering Strike) in order to regularly generate focus effectively while Shadows simply have costs that are such a large proportion of your resource bar that your only recourse is to use Saber Strike.

It doesn't matter if Smash and Sweeping Strikes(Cyclone Slash) hits hard. Their AoE DPS is completely shot due to their resource and cooldown limitations. That still stays true even if you compare the AoE of a Juggernaut that starts the fight with a full rage bar.

Actually, it does. First off, Smash and Force Sweep are functionally *free* since Courage/Revenge reduce the cost by 3. If you're in an AoE situation and *not* getting those 3 charges within 12 seconds, you're doing it wrong. Secondly, Sweeping Strikes and Cyclone Slash hit harder than Whirling Blow and are, honestly, easier to use. You can make all the claims you want about it, but I've played them both. 3 Focus is *way* easier to get a hold of than 40 Force, especially for an AoE burn. From full Force/Focus (you can pretty much start any fight with full Focus with Combat Focus>Throw>Leap), it'll take 3 GCDs until you can't sustain Whirling Blow spam for less damage for *each* Whirling Blow while you can go 4 GCDs without running out of Force for Cyclone Slash spam and that's assuming you *aren't* intelligent about it throwing in a Sundering Strike for the easy 2 Focus in there as well.

It also doesn't matter how much damage an AoE does if it can't even hit a target. Smash has half the radius of Wither/Discharge, 3m less than Overload, and Lacerate is a 360 degree AoE vs. Sweeping Slash's cone AoE.

As I have said before, in my own experience, I've had *way* easier time using Force Sweep than Slow Time simply because it's centered on me rather than my opponent. The expanded radius really only serves to make up for the fact that enemies *really* don't like standing where you want them to stand. If you're having a problem with Cyclone Slash's AoE, you're also doing it wrong. Any reasonably intelligent player that can actually *use* the given tools beyond facerolling (re: using the GCDs to place yourself appropriately) will actually be able to actually use them appropriately. As I have said time and time again, the fact that most Guards/Juggs are incapable of using the tools of their class appropriately doesn't mean that they are somehow underpowered *especially* when it's not even a hard capability to take advantage of: placement of the player is a joke and, honestly, should be considering a basic playing skill rather than an advanced skill like some expect. Just by *leveling* you should be able to grasp the basic fundamentals of how to use the abilities appropriately without blaming the abilities themselves as somehow being fundamentally flawed such that, even though they blow the comparative abilities of another class *completely* out of the water, the class is somehow *weaker* due to some players' inability to grasp a *very* simple skill.

I like how you just made the comment rather than reading the numbers and doing the math to see that I actually *did* include the 30% additional damage for Slow Time and 15% additional damage for Force Breach. If you want to call me on something, try to prove it before you spout it off.

I'm only going to respond to this just to show people how skewed your agenda is:

Smash coefficient = 1.35(1.9575 with talents)

Wither coefficient = 1.18(1.534 with talents. Wither has an additional 0.5 threat coefficient)

Smash coefficient = 1.35(1.9575 with talents)

Wither coefficient = 1.18(1.534 with talents, 2.301 threat coefficient)

Those numbers *fit* the numbers that I provided explicitly. Wanna try again?

Those numbers *fit* the numbers that I provided explicitly. Wanna try again?

"Force Sweep would deal roughly 2484 damage every 12 seconds for free"

"Slow Time deals 1027 damage"

"Force Sweep would deal roughly 2484 damage every 12 seconds for free"

"Slow Time deals 1027 damage"

See, neither one of you are accounting for base damage, which could be the reason why Force Sweep is showing so much more damage, but I full heartedly agree with Ruminate. If for no other reason, then Kitru is comparing the wrong powers, and assuming 'spam this button forever' situations.

1 Force Sweep in 12 seconds = Damage of Force sweep/12 = Total Force Sweep DPS

3 Whirling Blow in 12 seconds = (damage of whirling blow * 3)/12 = Total Whirling Blow DPS

Just accounting for Coefficients, Whirling Blow does 30% more damage (and thus TPS) then Force Sweep.

Same amount of force/focus uses (0 for Force Sweep due to Courage, 4.8 force GAIN off whirling blow, due to innate force recovery)

And Cyclone Slash is melee CONE power, meaning it might not be possible to get all 5 targets (say, if some are behind you)

That's why BioWare blessed you with an "S" key. You tap it once and all of a sudden all of your surrounding targets are in conal range. Now, if you have so many targets surrounding you that the artificial collision takes hold and they will not spot properly... well then you have bigger problems on your hand. Because in NMM, that means you're about to wipe.

So this, isn't even a factor. I don't blame you for this and I'm not trying to taunt you. This is a common oversight people make who haven't actually played Juggs/Guardians. Positioning is a non-issue in PvE. It really is.

When you compare that to Whirling blow, being used 3 times over 12 seconds...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there. You do know that Whirling costs 40 Force, right?

Ok, we all need to take a step back because people are starting to throw out some seriously wishy washy "what if's". The theorycrafting in here is wholly lacking. What you guys need to do is start plotting. So, to save you the time, I'll do it for you. Actually, instead of plotting it out, because people unfamiliar with plotting might get confused, I'm going to do this via chart. We're going to use the posited situation the above reader presented and then compare it to a similar situation via the Guardian.

So, first let's set the parameters. The reader was positing a 12 second time frame. 12 seconds = 8 GCDs. He also listed 10.4/sec as the Force regen factor. For simplicity's sake I'm going to list regen gain every other round so I don't lose the reader.

GCD     Action       Force Total
1          Slow T           70
2          Whirling         50.8
3               *               --
4               *              71.6
5          Whirling         31.6
6               *              52.4
7               *               --
8          Whirling         33.2

As you can see, it can be done but you have near zero wiggle room to do it and only 1 of those 4 "*" rounds could be allotted to doing anything that costs force. Now let's compare it to a Guardian AoE rotation. Remember, Soresu grants 1 rage/3 sec when spec'd. For simplicity's sake we will list this at the end total of every other GCD. Also, let's assume that Sweep is at full cost to start out and that Revenge doesn't factor.

GCD     Action        Focus
1          Sweep           9
2          Sunder          9
3          Cyclone         6     
4          Cyclone         4              
5          Sunder          6 
6          Cyclone         4
7          Assault          5
8          Cyclone         3

And ^this^ is assuming Revenge doesn't factor.

If you want to compare apples to apples then compare apples to apples. Too often I see these discussions and no one actually bothers to do any plotting. You can't, I repeat CANNOT, have these discussions without plotting. It's like engineering without a calculator. You have to do this.

Now there are two things we have to remember.

GCD     Action        Focus
1          Saber T         3
2          Leap             7
3          Sweep           6   
4          Sunder          9              
5          Cyclone         6 
6          G Slash         4
7          C Focus        10
8          Cyclone         8
9          Cyclone         5
10        Sunder          8

And you just carry on. Overall, yes, the Warrior/Guardian has a little bit better AoE threat than the Sin/Shadow on paper. They can cycle more over a longer period with greater sustainability. The Sin/Shadow mathematically cannot. I can do this all day long. Really, I can. But I trust I've made my point. Sins/Shadows aren't INFERIOR tanks. They have many strengths that Warriors/Guardians do not. It's just that AoE isn't explicitly one of those strengths.

That is how the game is designed. That is called BALANCE. And I don't care who is talking or what your "experience" may or may not be. You can be the all time gamer pro of the year and I still wouldn't care. Sins/Shadows do JUST FINE with tanking. Both in AoE and single target. They have a little bit of a disadvantage with AoE but as I said before, they have a toybox of utilities that Guardians/Warriors aren't afforded.

Finally, theorycrafting is all well and good but at the end of the day theory rarely resembles reality. As a Juggernaut I can tell you right now, thanks to the state of the game no matter what theory you throw down it will never be accurately represented in game. Mostly because of the GCD interruption issues that Tanks are facing across the board.

Everyone in this thread needs to take a step back and try not to take everything so personal. If your class is at a disadvantage in a given situation it's not a personal assault on you as a man/woman. People take these things waaaaaaaaaay too personally. As if someone just insulted their firstborn.

Do you see me arming for war because someone says that Jugg Immortals are crap in PvP? No, you don't. It's just a game guys. Take a step back and relax.

I'd like to know exactly what Assassin priority skill usage you're plotting to come to the conclusion that they have worse AoE threat.

Here's a brainless AoE priority system that anyone can do as a Shadow:

GCD     Action       Force Total       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Slow T           70                   3.06
2               *              85.6
3               *              100
4               *              100
5               *              100
6           Slow T          70                   6.12
7               *              85.6
8               *              100

vs.

GCD     Action        Focus       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Saber T         3
2          Leap             7
3          Sweep           6                   2.94
4          Sunder          9              
5          Cyclone         6                   4.46
6          G Slash         4
7          C Focus        10
8          Cyclone         8                    5.98
9          Cyclone         5                    7.5
10        Sunder          8

I'd like to know...

Shouldn't Wither/ST be 3.45 coefficient?

((Wither Base 1.18 * 1.3 Mounting Darkness) * 1.5 Wither Threat Modifier)*1.5 Stance Modifier= 3.45

Anyway, all I did was plot what Arbegla posited in this post.

• (Smash Base 1.35*( Decimate .3 + Heavy Handed .15))*1.5 Stance Modifier= 2.94
  
• (Sweeping Base .88 * Heavy Handed 1.15)* 1.5 Stance Modifier = 1.52
  

1x Smash + 4x Sweeps = 9.02

Vs.

• ((Slow Time Base 1.18 * 1.3 Mounting Darkness) * 1.5 Wither Threat Modifier)*1.5 Stance Modifier= 3.45
  
• (Whirling Base 0.71 * 1.06 Applied Force)*1.5 Stance Modifier= 1.13
  

1x Slow Time + 3x Whirling = 6.84

CLEARLY in the given situation he posited Sin/Shadow loses out. Which is why I plotted it out for him. Because it was clear he wasn't actually looking at what he was saying. You can't just say, "Oh, well 3x Whirlings equals more than a smash therefore we win." because no Sin/Shadow in their right mind is going to use 3x Whirling blows consecutively unless they're pulling normal/easy mobs.

In NMM that kind of rotation will get you and your party killed.

Here's a brainless AoE priority system that anyone can do as a Shadow:

Which will fall behind over time. Your cherry picked presentation illustrates, with my help mind you, one of the Warrior/Guardian's weaknesses: they are back loaded Tanks. Whereas Sins/Shadow's have the potential to be frontloaded tanks. There's a reason I closed out my last post with a "realistic" rotation. And your response was exactly that reason.

So, let's pretend we're going balls to the walls AoE shall we?

GCD     Action       Force Total       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Slow T           70                   3.06
2          Whirling         45.6                4.19
3          Whirling         20.2                5.32
4               *              35.8                  --
5               *              51.4                  --
6           Slow T          37                   8.38
7               *              52.6                  --
8           Whirling        28.2                9.51
9               *              43.8                  --
10             *              59.4                  --  
11         Slow T          35                   12.57
12         Whirling        0.6                  13.7

vs.

GCD     Action        Focus       AoE Threat Coefficient Total
1          Saber T         3                      --  
2          Leap              7                     --
3          Sweep           6                   2.94
4          Sunder          9                     --
5          Cyclone         6                   4.46
6          Cyclone         4                   5.98
7          Sunder          6                     --
8          Cyclone         4                   7.5
9          Slash             5                     --
10        Sweep           6                   10.44
11        Sunder          8                      --
12        Cyclone         6                    11.96

Now, the Sin/Shadow is ahead by .74 and is sitting on an empty resource pool. Meanwhile the Warrior/Guardian while being a tad behind is sitting on a 1/2 full resource pool. This is why I said in my last post that OVER TIME the Warrior/Guardian will pull ahead. Even if the Sin/Shadow played it conservative by tossing in discharges (or whatever the Jedi equivalent is) in replacement of Whirling Blows, he would still end up losing out.

It is also why I said that if you plot out a LARGER rotational period (such as 30 seconds, 60 seconds or even a couple minutes) you start to see a much more realistic picture of what's going on. In extremely short fights or coordinated bursts, yes, the Sin/Shadow will be on top. Over a battle of attrition the Warrior/Guardian wins out.

And in Hard/NMM/Ops it's the OVER TIME value which wins the day. There are no "quick pulls" like people are accustomed to encountering in pre 50 flashpoints. This is why you see so many Sins/Shadows complaining on the forums. Because they've just hit 50+ content and are trying to tank it like it's pre 50 content.

That's not going to work.

I assume all threat coefficients are additive: Wither + Stance

Regardless, Arbegla never suggested the skills you plotted. He compared Sweep vs. Whirling Blow in a vacuum. You added Slow Time and Cyclone Slash into the mix, so I assumed, rightfully, that you were going off your own priority system.

I assume all threat coefficients are additive: Wither + Stance

Then why did you use multiplicative sums in this post? I'm not trying to call you out, I was just wondering what your thought process was on the matter.

He compared Sweep vs. Whirling Blow in a vacuum.

Which was a fallacious argument.

A fallacy I outlined for him and other posters like him who were taking a trip to "lala land". That is why reading and understanding a post in it's entirety is important. Context. Anyway, like I said in my previous post, plotting has to be done in these discussions. Otherwise it's just one person shouting at another person, "NO, MY UNREALISTIC MATH IS THE RIGHT MATH!"

Alright, I see your priority now. But its still flawed, though.

Force Breach has better threat per force than Whirling Blow. And in a situation where you can hit multiple enemies with Whirling Blow/Cyclone Slash, you can also hit them with Overload/Force Wave(better threat per force than Whirling Blow) without hampering your AoE from the knockback.

It also appears that you included Revenge/Courage in the Jugg's priority, but didn't include the Shadow/Assassin's 100% chance to gain 2 force per shield/defense every 1s talent.

The Force regen is a bit off, too. In 12 GCDs, the Shadow/Assassin should have gained 187.2 force(287.2 total force, or 323.2 if you include the defense/shield force gain talent). The skills you listed only used 250 force, but the force at the end shows 0.6.

Then why did you use multiplicative sums in this post? I'm not trying to call you out, I was just wondering what your thought process was on the matter.[/i]

I never said anything about bonus damage not being multiplicative.