And you are a min/max gamer that either is or wants to be an elite gamer, that only wishes to team with like people. That is very clear now, and makes this entire thread make sense. In its current state SWTOR makes it very difficult to be a min/max gamer. Since this is the type of player you are, and you want to play this game, you are disappointed that BW has elected to leave these things out at this point. Because you think it should have these things, does not mean BW thinks it should have these things, as shown by them not being in the game. If BW thought they were important, they would be there, I suspect they elected to not include them. You see this as a failure by BW because you feel you can't min/max without them, and therefor the game is fail. It does not fit you personal play style or goals. So all in all this is just difference in oppinions and play styles.

I want to play the game well also, but do not require these things to improve or play the game well. Plus, I realise how empty an accomplishment it is to be excellent in a game. I require a game to be fun, and enjoy MMO's because I can have fun with friends and other players. If you need game excellence in your life, fine. I have achieved excellence in many thing in RL, being good at a game rather than the best and having fun while getting there, is just fine for me.

It is better, but not 100%.

1. I have a definate rotaion that I have figured out both soloing and in groups. By feild testing it I know it works better. 2. Yes bosses can rotate aggro, a treat meter will never help you with this kind of aggro. It will always be difficult to pin down random aggro and hits. Even a log can not help you determin when and if that hit will come again. 3. Why do you care so much about what other people in your group are doing all the time? If you are having fun and beating bosses things are working fairly well. If a person is standing around doing zero that is usually easy to spot without a meter. Nobody wants a person that is obviously just tagging along or lazy in a group. We all hope to avoid bad players, and if we find one, we do not team with them again or kick them. I have never needed meters to help me decide who was a good or bad player. You want ammunition to kick a player even if things went well because you determined their whatever was not up to snuff. You said it yourself, you are looking to kick people from groups, based on how you think they are playing. You have a right to do that. You, however seem overly concerned with your, loot, bragging rights, and false feelings of superiority rather than having fun playing a game. Maybe this is why BW did not want meters and combat logs, so immature, uptight people are deprived of ammunition to solidify their elitist "gaming" cred and the resulting attitude they shower upon others in the game. The wanted to create a laid back, friendly gaming environment. It is a doomed idea, but a lofty goal. 4. Nothing is vital if the game can be played successfully without it. Vital by definition says without x your will never be successful. Where is that the case here. You have repeatedly said the game is easy, but then say something is vital, if the game is easy what you are asking for is by definition NOT vital. You think these things are vital and you want them it really all boils down to that. If they are vital to you, I will never change your mind. It is obvious many do not agree, and these are the choice BW has made. It has everything to do with what you expect (you can not generalize and say players). When we agree to play the game we are restricted by what the developer has chosen to do. It has no relation to what has been done in the past, but what BW has picked to do now. I have a feeling most of these items were not ommisions, but rather decisions not to include made by BW

Yes, in the sense that both are ment to be fun, and in the grand scope of everything are meaningless.

I love how everyone with an issue about the game (or any game in general) deals only in absolutes. Because TOR does not have XXXX feature the game will die. No inclusion in their thought process about things that were done correctly, or that their issue is a concern to them with no care if anyone else actually cares about that issue. They said it, therefor it must be true, and it will come to pass exactly as they have said!!!!

I try different rotations, and different abilities on similar mobs and see how many hits, and how much damage comes off the NPC health bar as I hit it. The rotation and abilities that kill a mob faster must be doing more DPS. I also look at what my health is after a fight. If my char and pet has more health at the end, I drew less threat and/or did more dps and had a better fight. No meters needed. I do agree with you that being able to move, resize, recolor, the ui has little to no effect on overall game play, and I have no issue with that. In some ways I do not have major issues with all the meter, but they are really not needed if you look at the feedback the game already gives you. 1. Your health goes down = you are drawing aggro and being hit 2. NPC is going down faster = you are doing more dps or mitigating damage better 3. Watching the health bars and game animations = telling you who in your party is getting hit and holding aggro You have the tools they are just not in a format that you like. As for healers and other players taking aggro. You are aware that the game applies a hugh threat generation stat to healing, right? Healing as it stands will get you hit often. In addition, boss mob adds are basically programmed to hit the healer first regardless of tank threat generation on the boss. That is why when adds pop in this game the healer almost always goes down first and fast.

If you think it is all guessing, or are not paying attention and learning to play.

Are not all games basically button mashing when it comes right down to it? So you have to mash 10 muttons rather than 3, big deal. Mashing buttons = playing the game unless you have a magic mind linked interface. If you have one of those, pm me where to buy one also. As for dealing with the number of abilities, I have a Razor Naga, does the job very very well. No point and click, and I can access all my abilities with just the mouse, shift + mouse, control + mouse, etc. As for the last part of your text I pulled out here, as was just stated WoW was not awash with addons till late 2006 at best. That is 2+ years post launch. SO players have not been crying for these things. I have never personally needed or wanted an addon.

What you call guessing, many would call learning to actually play the game by, well playing the game. It is not guess it is learningn by trial and error. Did you ever play games where you had to fight a boss or do an instance several times to figure out the secret, where you actually had to try different approaches to see how to get it done? All these meters etc are the live action cliff notes to the game, you never have to figure out how to do anything because the game basically tells you. But then you go on and say the game is so easy it does not even matter? So if the game is so easy, you want an addon on that will make the game even easier? How does that logic even follow? The only way it follows is you want to get the good loot drops even faster and earn bragging rights rather than actually enjoying the experience.

I have played MMO's that were infested with bots which proved that the game could basically be made to play itself. It is easy to say a bot is a very well designed addon.

I have no issues with UI changes or customizing things that improve how we personally interact with the game, but do not allow us to change basic game mechinics to an extent. So I may have been to braod in my statement, I will grant you that. Yes the AH is a mess, I hate it. In fact BW has said they are working on expanding ui flexability right now, if you would read their posts. However, addons that allow you to know exactly what an NPC is "thinking" or give you the ability to perform what would otherwise be difficult complex moves with one button, does put the game on easy mode.

But you can play the game and do everything you are saying without add ons, you just need to learn to do them differently.

It is very simple ADD ONS = EASY MODE, and one or two button win. People complaining about this are finding this game mildly more difficult to play and they want the game easier. Or they are getting their hind end kicked in PvP becasue they have become so dependant on their add ons.

Situational awareness could just simply mean you notice you are getting hit. Seems like that is a fairly good indication you have some aggro. Does basically the same thing an addon would do, but it means you will take some damage at times. I think it simply means BW wanted to design a system where everyone has the chance of actually getting hit once in awhile. Not a totally tank and spank system where the tank gets all the aggro, and everyone else that is hitting the NPC never has to worry about getting hit. I also do not think BW has the same type of aggro system as other games. It seems much more difficult to hold aggro in general in this game. Either dps draws aggro more quickly, or the NPCs random rotate aggro regardless of held aggro to a degree. As for what you said in b... the add-on takes control and ajusts your game, well that sounds like the addon is playing the game for you. I think you ment C, meaning the add on says you are getting too much aggro and then you ajust your game. I know it upsets people, and if you like addons etc, I really have little issue with it. BW has made a decision to not allow them at this point, and complaining about it does little it is their game. Kinda related, I wonder how much of limiting addons, meters, etc has to do with limiting the ability of people to alter and change the game in an effort to avoid things like bots? When I have played modable games, those have always been the games infested with bots. I have not seen a bot here to my knowledge.