Lol, succes is in the eye of the beholder, really DAoC was not nearly as succesful as many make it out to be. I played that craptastic game, the PvP was horribad, gank squads roaming everywhere, complete imbalance, sub-par sub numbers because the majority of MMO players really are not interested in PvP. Let alone RvR, which is surely where you will take your argument next. But hey what do I know, I just play the game. Expertise is a good stat, too bad it's beyond the comprehension of the players that get steamrolled as to why they need it too and should just play the game and stop whining about not being able to win every single match without effort.

I almost fell outta my chair, lol, so true. Rift is ok, but only if you don't like having fun. And they were right, going to telara is not being in azeroth anymore, it's like a cheap version of azeroth with generic gameplay and even less story. As far as crashing and burning maybe not because it's a place where the "I hate WoW" club can go and complain about WoW, and well you know, complain about WoW.

the sad part is that on my server the worlds beyond Dromund kaas only have 6 players maybe 12 at a time at this point so it's not just a "i got to lvl 50 and am bored" thing it's a im still leveling inan empty world thing.

^exactly, no amount of story can make up for not having enough content to keep us playing

So, since I never said I was skipping the story you are convinced I am. I am here to play a game that was advertised as a game not a choose your own story book. The main focus of the game being story is cool, it's unique, and it took guts for them to spend that much money in an economy like we are in. Again, I'm here to play the game, and if there is no game beyond the story then whats the point. And one more time to get the point across, I AM HERE TO PLAY THE GAME. got it? Don't need the personal attacks because you are a worshiper at the bioware alter, this thread is about the apparent lack of things to do at 50. So, since that has been said, quit expecting everyone here to only want to hear the story rather than play the game.

In truth the "End Game" is where you are supposed to be after leveling, maybe calling max level gameplay "end game" is a misnomer. Still, the fact remains that no matter how many times you play the leveling game you still find yourself with a max level character or ten. There is validity in saying the game is about the journey, but, at the same time while you might like the stories enough to keep rehashing them over and over, the fact is that there are people who don't like the story enough to do that. So, for those players "end game" is where its at. If the game studio wants to retain subs then they have to make content for those players and yes you too. I myself don't really enjoy the leveling process enough to repeat it, more than once after my first main character gets to max level. I have a feeling that there probably are many other people out there that feel the same way, and for those of us that feel this way there should be a reason to keep paying the fee -ie raids, hard modes, and open world pvp in flippable zones. Not a rant just saying you can't put all of us in a box and say that our concerns don't matter.

I am having to re-download the client and am curious as to the thoughts of how fast this should be? Not looking to stir a pot or anyhitng like that just curious about what kind of speed i should expect from a 100meg connection. Currently I'm seeing 12.7ish MB/sec and wonder if anyone else can tell if they are having similar results.

And for the record I myself quit playing wow when cataclysm came out and they forced us all into cookie cutter builds even more than WoTLK did.

Once again blinded by the light you are, the excessive focus and spending on the VO did in fact take from other parts of the game. I agree that the VO is appealing even though my opinion of the story is diffeerent than everyone elses. All I know is that the facts are that WoW is 7 years old and IS the standard that is widely accepted and the playerbase here is in fact the minority. Direct comparison reveals that in order to even approach WoW-like status takes a whole lot more effort than anything we have seen yet from a game company.

Epic, and exactly how I feel about it.

In your mind your opinions are facts as they are in mine, irrelevent is what you are trying to say, like I have said since then and you managed to say yourself it is the masses that will determine the fate. But make no mistake you have just basicaly stated that you yourself are not one to judge even though you are a paying customer too.

people also forget that the competition at the time and since WoW came out has been pretty lacking. Failhammer was supposed to kill WoW, no endgame crap middleware and the ever present attitude of "go back to WoW" made sure that never happened. EQ2.....nuff said Tabula Rasa, niche with even worse issues than Failhammer. AoC, not much to say there GW, niche EvE, niche....but still alive and evolving, not to mention it takes an extreme amount of patiience and has a crazy big learning curve. PoTBS, yeah....SOE STO, crappy all around LoTRO, good game good pvp, but still not enough to even compete UO, too old to compete Rift, May yet surprise us all as they are really cranking out content and endgame at a remarkable pace. As far as the fun factor goes, once they figure it out that will be the real competition for TOR. there are others that I never played because they did not interest me at all, and feel free to flame because all of this is opinion and does not matter Oh, I almost forgot, this game will be a success. It just depends on if you consider making money or making WoW money successful.

Admit this fanboys, 100 million fans of the original star wars does not equal 1billion fans of all the watered down crap that Lucas has allowed to happen since his original masterpieces. What I or any other person thinks of this game really does not matter on an individual level, what does matter is if enough people individualy feel the same way to make or break the game. Community is the biggest factor, and the majority of the community here is the "I hate WoW" set, comparing the two is in fact valid. Comparing ToR to WAR is valid as well. And bioware like the community is clearly made up of the same sets of of people that either hated WoW because they fail at playing a game that requires following directions and teamwork. Or hate Blizzard because they were not picked for employment or fired for being "bad" much as the same people that helped make WAR the rousing success that it is. LOL I like TOR, but it's the community that kills it for me, and the lack of polish that they promised would be in game.

Ahh but there it is as a consumer he is one to judge just like you or I. After reading this thread it makes me wonder where the political spectrum lies in the fanboy err- playerbase is in this game.

It was a sticky in the beta forums, wish I had a SS of it but it is true flame if they want....but it was there. And there are people that read it and can attest to it too, the trick is getting them to step forward.