You mean you don't have a response to anything the rest of us argued about and thus resort to another baseless argument? Wait, so you actually think you have the authority to declare what's canon and whats not? You really are a joke of a debater. You haven't even offered a single shred of evidence, and now you're trying to proclaim whats canon, and what isn't. This is the typical movie hating kotor playing kids last resort of an argument. Your whole arguments revolving around Nox are nothing but assumptions that hasn't even been declared canon, you're assuming a great deal of things with absolutely nothing to back you up, its no wonder you resort to this kind of argument that because they didn't do it in the movies, therefore you won't accept the evidence thats been given and shown to you. First off there wasn't an opponent dangerous enough for Vader to even unleash his full powers on. Secondly, since when do you actually get to declare whats canon and what isn't? Third, just because the movie characters hasn't displayed feats like that on film, doesn't mean they couldn't. Last but not least, you do realize that the way the movie characters were portrayed in the EU(like lifting mountains, blasting armies of droids etc etc) were what lucas actually intended and stated, but couldn't showcase it in the films due to budget constrains? Your whole argument was that the characters in the movie has feats which contradicts what they performed in the EU(this applies not just to vader, but to luke, mace, yoda and palpatine) therefore you think they are not canon or applicable in a debate. What you ignored was Lucas stated that these Jedi and Sith were the prime order in the sw history where they were at their strongest so if you're trying to use this argument that "it contradicts the movies", then you should know that the powers showcased in all of the EU(which includes TOR, DE, TOTJ KOTOR) are contradicted by what powers has been displayed in the movies and thus shouldn't be canon too right? The timeline of TOR shouldn't cease to exist, maybe not. But by your own argument and logic, even their powers are contradicted by the movies thus their displays of prowess shouldn't be considered canon either. Anyways your whole argument is pointless, you don't get to decide whats canon and whats not, Lucasarts or Disney now, or the writers get the authority to declare what is canon and what isn't and not some guy desperate to downplay the PT/OT characters to suit his argument.

Im his twin

You're forgetting that Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord with the greatest display of force lightning in the mythos, and that The essential guide of characters stated that Vader was hit with palpatines killing bolts. You did on several occasions. [quote=ZooMzy;6887543 But I did miss the point, as that is a very weak comparison to say that Vader can handle himself in comparison to Stormtroopers, who could probably die from paper cuts. Now that is a baseless and ridiculous assertion. Nope, because both the game and novel of the first TFU didn't show Vader succumbing to force lightning, a source which you ignore. Lol, this is the typical Kid who plays kotor argument. "It contradicts the movie therefore its non canon!!!". Guess what, the whole TOR timeline and its characters contradict the movies too! I guess we should all discredit the feats of Yoda, Mace, Sidious in the EU, because it contradicts what they didn't show in the movie! You're not a lucasarts employee to decide whats canon or not kid. You cut the majority of your point out because your point is baseless to begin with. You forget that it was Palpatine, whom according to several sources, one being the new essential guide to characters, stated that Palpatine was unleashing his most powerful bolts of lightning on Vader. Not to mention that Palpatine has shown the greatest displays of force lightning in the mythos. Your first argument. "According to lore force storm can break tanks blah blah blah". Prove it with facts from sources that are approved canon. Again as i argued we don't even know how capable Nox is a lightsaber duelist, so even if assuming what you argue is true, that a bladed saber gives an edge, it wouldn't give Nox an edge at all. Not to mention that it isn't even canon that he/she wields one. Nope, you forget that he was simply facing darth maul, whom has been stated to be the dealiest apprentice in history and the same Darth maul that beat Sidious in a duel after a huge fit of rage. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b281/Frost327/Pictures/Vader%20vs%20Maul/SWT_09_01_Resurrection_036.jpg ^ Heck, look at this scan which you ignore, Vader is keeping up with Maul and his double bladed saber. If you actually had eyes to scan the comic without your immense bias, the only reason Maul is getting an edge over Vader is because of h2h combat, he's a master of Teras Kasi and been stated to be the sith lord with the best hand to hand combat skills in the mythos. He's combining his lightsaber skills and BOTH teras Kasi to push Vader. Multiple sources prove you wrong, TFU 1 and 2, Rise of Darth Vader, Empire comics, Shadows of the empire, etc etc. Im not denying he moves slower after his injuries and being put into a suit, but to make an exaggeration that he is so slow to the point he can't find anyone(seeing how all force users are faced paced) is a pretty ignorant statement. LOL actual melee combat doesn't apply to Star wars unless you count the scene in A new Hope because that one was based off real swordsmanship unlike the rest of the films, tor trailers, TFU scenes which were all basically a flashy show based off choreography . First off, a staff like the double bladed lightsaber will never work in real life because of the fact that grabbing parts of the "blade" is part of certain techniques to generate more swing and momentum, not to mention Not to mention, its been stated in Path of destruction regardless of using different weapons, they all follow the same sequenece. So your argument is invalid. Try again. A point which you have yet to even prove, if no book is going to back you up, shut up and conced your point. You haven't even proven 2 things - 1. That Nox uses a double bladed lightsaber 2. That Nox is a top end lightsaber duelist If confirmation is needed, then until it is confirmed, concede your argument, because it has no concrete evidence to back anything you try to argue. No denial he/she is a great force user, but as i said, what do we know of Nox's lightsaber skills in actual detail? How do we know that Nox didn't simply overwhelm his/her opponents with sheer force display and not lightsaber combat? Its all open to interpretation. And to argue that Nox is a vastly superior duelist to Vader on no basis of even actual confirmation of what type of lightsaber Nox is confirmed to use is the most ridiculous argument ever made up on this forum . How do we know that? Considering its all gameplay. Nox needed what? Several force ghosts to amplify his power just to face Thanaton? Lol so you're comparing Nox to Maul now with nothing to back you up? We don't even know what kind of lightsaber Nox wields(not that it matters), let alone his/her lightsaber style, battle strategy and how good is his swordsmanship. In fact i would argue that his/her lightsaber skills aren't great considering that more than half the SI's story was about gathering the spirits to incrase his force powers so nothing indicates that Nox is even close to a top tier lightsaber duelist. He had to include the fighting style of Teras Kasi(which maul has been stated to be one of the best in) which is h2h while dueling Vader at the same time, simply because he couldn't overwhelm him in sheer lightsaber combat. Not really a flaw, Bane got defeated in a saber duel by Kasim when he did the same thing. Dooku got annihilated by Anakin when he made the sudden and quick change in combat form(of course he was in a clear zone of mind as well). Not to mention that Maul has proven to be one of the greatest saber duelists of all time, even beating Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel in a fit of uncontrollable rage, so of course its no surprise that his change of style overwhelmed Vader. We don't even know how capable Nox is with a lightsaber duelist, let alone what style he/she uses so him/her being able to swich a style is irrelevant. Nox is a featless wonder as far as dueling skills go. Which i have disproven with several novels, comics and games. I didn't confirm it, i simply stated that it was someone as skilled as Darth Maul, whom beat Sidious in a prior duel, was able to take Vader down. Roan Shryne did the same thing to Vader in the novel Rise of Darth Vader, but because Roan wasn't a saber duelist on Vaders level despite being much quicker and more agile, his change of style did very little to throw Vader off and was beaten to a pulp. Besides im going to start using your own argument against you. Nox has never been shown to defend against opponents who use the entire terrain against him/her and Vader has been shown to do this on multiple occasions from the movies, to the Eu that he can summon a telekinetic storm and throw literally whatever is on the environment against nox during the saber duel and crush him How exactly is Vader old and crippled? Hes roughly 42 years old by the time of the OT, id hardly call that old. And he has demonstrated to be agile and quick for someone his size and bulk on multiple occasions, even in the empire trikes back. The fact that you barely even read up or care about any of Vaders accomplishments, trying to downplay his feats only shows you dislike him. It wasn't an admittance is you actually read. You're the one that tried comparing a featless saber Nox on the skill level of Darth Maul without any proof, without even listing the lightsaber form that Nox has mastered(which has been shown to be none so far) or the confirmed facts of what kind of lightsaber Nox wields. Because Sidious displays the most powerful lightning in the Mythos? Because several sources stated that Vader got killed by Sidious most powerful barrage of lightning? He's already shrugged off lightning on 2 occasions from another force user with the potential to surpass Sidious. Wait, so now you're comparing him to Sidious? This is called fanboyism my friend, you ignore the facts, attempt to dismiss canon and try to compare your favourite character to the undisputed most powerful sith in the mythos. How is Nox even considered a top contender when he had to absorb a couple of sith spirits to boost his/her power? I can list down dozens of sources that even disprove your theory. he Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed. -- Death Star, page 76. "...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." -- The New Essential Chronology, page 84 Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting. -- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72. Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook: "Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned." Empire's End, one of the Ancient Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes." Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine. On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak. Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave." Not to mention, that Palpatine has been shown to be able to drain billions of lives on the planet byss, and his mere presence turning a once "lush and fertile world" into "one of the most powerful dark side nexus the galaxy had known". He mind wiped billions of lives on Coruscant to keep the construction of the lusankya hidden and he was capable of summon Force storms(wormholes), basicallt wormholes that destroy the fabric of space and time and can do everything from wiping out entire fleets(which he did), to ravaging and ripping off a planets surface and transporting a being from across the galaxy. Nope, its not a contradiction, im saying the whole of the SWU has so many inconsistencies but you just try to pin it on one character just to suit your argument. You're the one whose upset your "favourite character" isnt winning. Heck my favourite character would be my own character, the Imperial agent or Luke Skywalker from the movies. Yeah, because Nox needing different spirits just to face one sith lord, having no mention of his/her saber dueling capabilities and a raging fanboy like you, tries to exaggerate literally everything about him so of course i don't find Nox impressive when i look at the facts. You can lie all you want, but the fact that you're making up alot of things about Nox without even proving it with any source of canon shows you're just another fanboy. Nox is not stronger than a "contradictory"(the whole of SW, even your inquisitor is) Vader according to what has been established Not really, but nice try. Hey, you're the one thats getting stomped on, considering you have not offered a single shred of proof and your arguments constantly getting torn down. Dont live in denial. From your point of view. George Lucas himself contradicts any claims you're making by stating that despite Vader losing most of his force potential, he is still 8 tenths the power of Sidious aka the most powerful sith lord in the galaxy. You mean Luke skywalker, the next guy with the most powerful force potential. Lets not forget that Luke himself in a later novel stated that Vader was holding back on him the entire time and that even the movies itself made it look like Vader was conflicted. Palaptines lightning in which an outside canon source stated it was his most powerful volts(which already reduced 3 force users to ashes in a prior comic). The prophecy never stated that the chosen one had to destroy the sith in direct combat. This isn't helping your argument. No it hasn't, because theres a new comic, called the clone wars infinities which actually does show Anakin realizing his potential when the father didn't wipe his vision memories on mortis, Anakin turns to the dark side and becomes so powerful that not even yoda and Sidious could beat him combined. So your argument there is invalid. 95% of the EU contradicts the movies. I can use your own arguments against you. To start with, Lucas calls the prequel era the most powerful jedi order in SW lore, secondly, the jedi and the sith in the movies has never demonstrated the feats and powers they have in the EU in the movies(This applies to Sidous, Yoda, Mace etc etc). So by that kind of logic, the whole of the EU is contradictory and should be erased from canon. Yoda was lifting mountains with the force in the old TCW series, Mace was force gripping 100 tons of a rock landslide in the shatterpoint novel, Sidious was summoning wormholes to destroy fleets, but because they have never shown these kind of feats in the movies and dont look capable of doign so, therefore it is non canon! Even with this kind of logic, since the most powerful jedi in the movies couldn't do these feats, therefore the TOR, TOTJ, DE timeline all should cease because the feats shown in these series contradict what the movie shows! But heres a sad fact i have to break to you, neither i and especially you, don't decide what is canon, so deal with it my friend See the above, if we used your logic in this argument, then even our favourite game, the TOR timeline would contradict the movies therefore we should discredit everything shown in the games. Yes, therefore by your logic, we should declare anything in swtor non canon, because it too contradicts the feats that the most powerful sith and jedi do in the movies, which in comparison to what they can do in the EU and what the ancient sith and jedi can do is a huge contradiction. See the above. Its been aprooved by lucasarts, so no matter how much you try to argue, it is still canon Yeah but the devs called it canon, that its an interactive cutscene so to speak. I can't dig up the quote but i go by what i see on screen > the novel. And lets forget where you said that, i been a dick head towards you and i apologize.

Again, he was not subdued by Galens force lightning. The TFU novel specifically stated that Vader shrugged off Galens force lightning so no, Galen didn't take down with a singular blast of lightning as you keep putting it out to be, Galen simply beat Vader because of one thing : An overwhelming display of raw power in the force and because of his potential in the force(which was stated to rival Sidious). And hes protected it via an upgrade to his suit as stated in the TFU novel, yes, his suit had a disadvantage before, but then what of it since he has made upgrades to it that allows him to shrug of lightning on 2 occasions that were powerful enough to bring down entire ATAT-s? Lol because im making a point that Vader is capable of defending himself? You miss the point. Not it didn't. Don't lie about it. Either read the TFU novel which states that Vaders suit got damaged by Galens barrage of telekinetic display(smashing Vader with giant pillars and a sheild generator) or the scripted scene in The force unleashed. None of these attacks including a display of force lightning. As for the second force unleashed, yes, Galen did take him down by lightning super charged with 3 pylons, but not a single shred was seen on Vaders armor, heck not even his breathing was effected, and it isn't some quick blast of lightning Vader took with the clone, he was exposed to the blast for a prolonged amount of time. Nox's lightning will not give him an edge here. Thats because he never allowed other remaining force users to attack him on a degree. Galen was the only one that was far more powerful than he was. You don't have to, i know He/She can summon up a storm of lightning, im just making a point, that lightning isn't the end be all answer to any fight against Vader. You're a really terrible debater you know, not once has i rated Nox on a nightsister level. Your point was that "Force storm" can take down "ATAT's" according to lore, im just disproving you wrong, that not every one with the ability has the skill for it to crush down an entire tank. I'v finished the Inquisitor storyline, and i wasn't impressed to be honest. Nox needing to visit different worlds for the force ghosts to amp up his power just to beat Thanaton? Youre the one that made the ignorant claim that Force storm itslf is capable of ravaging ATAT-s to dust. There's not much of a difference, regardless if you're using a single lightsaber, Dual, or double bladed because they all follow the same sequence and steps of what ever lightsaber form you're using, this has been proven in Path of destruction. How could Vader not defend nor have the skill His mastery of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, the fact that he has fought multiple opponents whom were far more agile and quicker than he was and yet still beat them in sheer lightsaber combat. And then again, we don't even know whats canon in the Inquisitor storyline, we don't even know if him using a double bladed lightsaber or single lightsaber is canon. Heck, assuming it is even canon if he/she used a double bladed lightsaber, what do we know of it? What forms of lightsaber combat has Nox mastered? What duel has he won with a lightsaber? We know absolutely nothing of Nox's lightsaber skill as in comparison to Vader whom has been shown to be a master of all forms to the point of making a singular customary form which included elements of Juyo and the rest so i don't even see Nox having the capabilities to duel Vader let alone beat him in lightsaber combat. First off, you read the comic again. When Maul was using the double bladed lightsaber, he couldn't overpower vader and vice versa, it was an even match, it was only when vader sliced his lightsaber into two, that Maul switched styles and caught vader off guard. No he hasn't as he demonstrated the skill to fight off Jedi and Warriors which were far more agile and quicker than he is, not to mention his mastery of the force which puts him above the majority of force users. Just because you don't like Vader, doesn't mean he is weak and can easily lose to someone who moves faster than him. Don't talk about "realistically loses to quick blah blah blah", don't even mention the word "realistic" in star wars when you have sounds and explosions in outer space. Which i have disproven and caught you lying. Keep in mind that the whole of the EU is inconsistent with characters and their powers, not just Vaders powers, don't attempt to downplay them just because you don't like him and want your favourite character to beat him. His powers are not "exaggerated" as you would like to put it out to be, you just don't like the fact that Vader isn't some weak force user as most kids who play KOTOR and hate the movies thinks its cool to do so. The SW EU always shows inconsistency. From your biased point of view, no its not. No you haven't, you haven't even proved Nox is a capable saber duelist. Maul didn't beat him just because he used a double bladed saber or a duel saber, its because Maul has been proven, and stated to be the deadliest sith apprentice in history and has several note worthy feats of his own in saber combat. Heck even sometime before TPM, maul has briefly beaten darth sidious in duel in a fit of rage with his lightsaber(Source, Darth Maul novel) And what "Style" are you talking about? Using the double bladed lightsaber doesn't mean you somehow use a style unknown to lightsaber combat. Maul used the Juyo form on his double bladed lightsaber and Maul has proven he's one of the best saber duelists in SW history by even besting Sidious in a duel, so tell me, if Vader could go head to head to that before Maul used dual sabers to beat his arse, what makes you think Nox could do anything remotely close considering that as if said before, we know nothing of his/her swordsmanship in saber combat and skill. Just because Nox appears to use the same style as Maul(which isn't even proven what form Nox is using as of yet) doesn't mean he/she is as skilled as Maul is in lightsaber combat. Not impressed. And if its not declared canon, then its still left debatable. Because Nox has been shown to defeat most of this people in gameplay mechanics, we don't exactly know how Nox defeats them. Is it with his/her Storm? Superior lightsaber skill? Force attacks? Etc etc He didn't have to by the second TFU when he was exposed to a lightning storm of massive proportions conjured by the clone and 3 pylons for a prolonged amount of time. Like i kept saying, it didn't affect him at all, heck it didn't even effect his breathing or damage his suit because of the upgrades he installed. This is a point you keep trying to ignore. Its not game mechanics when its a cutscene and a scripted gameplay scene according to the devs, so yes, Galen did beat Vader by amping his own lightning with 3 giant pylons, the novel and comic even states this. And don't try to tell me whats canon or not since you yourself stated you don't care about the rules of canon

That was only after Galen achieved clarity. My whole poin ist just because a particular force user has lightning, it does not give him an edge over Vader, whom once again has shown to tank lightning to various degrees with little to no effect on his suit. Vader has also been shown to block force attacks powerful enough to kill his stormtroopers around him. BTW Galen beat Vader to a pulp through sheer force, not through force lightning. Prove it. The nightsisters of dathomir whom are vastly inferior force users compared to the prowess of the top tier sith are able to summon a storm of force lightning from the sky, it doesn't mean that just because you can summon a storm of lightning, that you can take down entire military tanks with ease or the Sith during the TOR timeline should have been able to bring down the entire republic military without a single casualty. Very few force users are able to use lightning on such a scale and power with the exception of Palpatine, Vitiate and Galen Marek. Which again is bollocks, since when does wielding a double bladed lightsaber gives you an edge? Vader has mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and merged it into a singular style that made his attacks and defenses [/i]unpredictable[/i](Source: Rise of Darth Vader) He's faced opponents like Maul who did wield a double bladed lightsaber and guess what? He didn't fall so easily, he was actually evenly matched. See the above, you clearly haven't paid any attention to the EU about Vader, he's faced Darth Maul and his double bladed lightsaber, he's faced the starkiller clone with dual sabers(and not to mention that he couldn't beat Vader in a duel until he had to summon a force lightning storm amplified by 3 gigantic pylons making it even deadlier combined with the natural lightning of Kaminos sky, all of which didn't even harm Vader much except bring him to kneel) And his "substantial weakness" to lightning has been disproven numerous times in the TFU saga. Meaning? Was just raising an additional point. Vader isn't as weak as many people put him out to be. He's shown an impressive resistance on 2 occasions against powerful bursts of both Force lightning and Force lightning storm. He's been shown to casually defeat Jedi that could pull entire space stations apart, defeat Jedi that could walk through walls(the dark lady), been shown to be powerful enough in the force to grip a Y-wing bomber out of the sky(its in one of the new comics) and slam it on the ground, collapse entire cathedrals with his rage and his skills with the lightsaber are no slouch either considering that he was quick enough to deflect a planatery turbo laser(the same one that shot down an entire star destroyer) back at it.

No it isn't. He's been shown to take the full force of Galen Mareks lightning(lightning that was powerful to obliterate entire ATAT-s) in the first TFU with little to no effect and the Starrkiller clones lightning amped up with 3 pylons and the skys lightning did little to nothing once more other than making Vader kneel. Other force abilities like Force drain would haveno effect since Vader has an immunity to these type of attacks as was demonstrated in the clone wars against the dark reaper(Ulic gave and taught Anakin an immunity to force drain attacks).

Non canon is non canon and is irrelevant if you really want to debate seriously. If you used lets the KOTOR campaign guide to prove Traya's superiorirty over Sion, then thats fine. But if you're using cut content to prove Traya's superiority over Sion(assuming of course there are no other sources to prove your point), then theres an issue with that. Which brings me to my next point about Dark Side Mortis Anakin...

I wasn't disputing Trayas superiority over Sion... im just very questionable of the sources used earlier(cut content) Keyboard warriors, you gave me t3h lulz, i hardly spend anytime here so "years" would be a huge exaggeration, stop fantasizing about me ms.

Yet you care enough to constantly reply despite being wrong about what is canon and what isn't. I fail to see how those empty passages prove that anything in cut content was canon as you keep putting it out to be, why don't you actually respond to my previous arguments instead of conjuring new useless ones? And slinging mud at your "friends"? Am i suppose to go lulz? One of your "friends" outright claimed he doesn't care about canon, yet somehow Im the one thats being looked at for supposedly having baseless arguments that hasn't taken proper canon into account Iv listed the sources such as Path of destruction to support some of my arguments, its not my fault your dyslexic or a retard at reading comprehension. Yes, you're trying to tell me fan restored content is canon and yet when i argue against that because most of it still isn't canon, im the one who doesn't "know what is canon and what isn't", seriously are you a clown? Trying to tell me my arguments are baseless won't prove that the majority of cut content is still non canon, you're the baseless one that has constantly failed to respond to any of my points to begin with. PS Your Passage from the KOTOR campaign guide only proved my point : That the majority of fan restored cut content still isn't canon. You shot yourself on the foot their mate

See the bolded part? That means Lucasarts did not approve of cut content being released therefore it's non canon. Only parts of cut content has been acknowledged by recent sources that were released. What the lead writer says is irrelevant, Hayden Blackman also made a statement of Galen Marek, having the potential to be the most powerful force user ever but that isn't considered canon because it contradicts numerous sources and George Lucas that states that Anakin Skywalker was the one with the highest force potential to become to the most powerful force user Yes i do, but the sad fact is only parts of cut content is "canonized". M4-78 arc is still non canon, the brawl which happened on the ravager between Sion and Nihilus is still..... non canon. The exiles party being captured by Sion on Malachor V which is a part of cut content.... is still non canon. Kreia "dominating" Sion on Malachor V.... is also still non canon. All because only parts of cut content has been acknowledged by recent sources, sources which you have yet to provide. Those events were simply retconned by newer sources, in no way does this make the full fan restored content "canon". Try again and this time round, stop trying to twist facts.

The thing is Selenial, when someone decides to ignore the rules of canon(like both of you using non canon cut content to suit your arguments), i can't take either of you two seriously, especially when one is self righteous into proclaiming himself an authority. I didn't ignore any arguments, you ignored more than half the evidence i conjured and retorted to twisting facts. If thats the case, if canon is being chosen to be ignored here, why don't you guys put dark side Mortis Anakin on number 1 spot? Seeing that how the infinities comic shows that when The Father didn't wipe Anakins vision of his future self, he became tainted under the influence of the dark side of the force from the son and became to powerful to the point where - 1.) Sidious revealed his true sith identity to Yoda and called for a temporary truce. 2)They actually team up and put aside their beliefs to stop Anakin 3) They both get beaten singlehandedly by Anakin with very little effort.

Hey, continue being thick headed and stubborn, i just had to LOL when you said you ignored canon. Why is there even a list anyway? That being said, of course i can't pursuade you, you just admitted to be a raging hormone fanboy of Traya

Theres no evidence to show they are strong. Infact. all evidence DOES point to them being weak, like being insta killed with one force attack. But just how powerful is the Average Jedi High Council member? Then it simply means those guys were Average at best if you won't accept weak. When i say "weak", i make it in comparison to the top tier jedi/sith. So stating what i see is baseless? Application of negative traits is due to what is seen, what is written in sources. Having seen nothing positive of them, except the assertion that they are "powerful" simply because they are on the high council is preposterous, you're either going to have to prove that they are combat worthy, or simply concede your argument. No, im simply pointing out to Selenial that her argument of them being powerful just because they were ranked masters is abhorrent and stupid. Evidence is evidence. See the above. You really are a stubborn donkey aren't you? If it wasn't in the game by official release, it is not and will not be canon. This is a fact, get over it and move on. If it was restored by Obsidian, then its a different story. Going by your stubborn thickheaded thinking, then id argue the whole force unleashed saga is non-canon for the simple fact that shaak-ti was a major character in the first TFU when in one of the deleted scenes of revenge of the sith, she was shown to be executed by general grievous. Just because a bunch of modders released it as a non official mod, doesn't make it a usable canon source, if thats the cause i could simply grab adobe movie maker, slap in the deleted scenes and then declare the deleted scenes canon. So what? Fan content isn't canon, Fan restored content also isn't canon. Get it in your head. Which again is not canon. Keep living in denial. LOL, you want to ignore the rules of canon, get into a debate with ignoring the said rules and then act as an authority because you created the thread? You're a joke mate. If you're so insistent of ignoring canon, why don't you start using characters from fan fiction then? You state this and expect to be taken seriously? are a laughing stock, i won't be going anywhere anytime soon mate. So thats the case then, ignore canon huh? Well why don't you put Vader on number 1 then? Seeing how in empire of war i could use Vader to singlehandedly take out the rebel armies with his force crush decimating entire armies and military tanks. PS Its ironic you keep saying you will ignore me, but you can't because you're embarrased i keep poking holes in your argument

I can't prove the negative, you claimed these featless wonders to be powerful, you prove it. How is it baseless? Iv already offered proof, proof which you choose to ignore. Like the sith weaklings in kaans brotherhood which were titled dark lords of the sith that were easily squashed by the jedi. Its not baseless when these featless jedi demonstrate nothing. Don't tell me about backing up with proof when you use cut content to suit your arguments. Because its cut content, it was restored work done by fans, not by obsidian entertainment therefore it is not canon. You can't use something thats non canon to back your arguments up I'm sorry Beniboybling, I don't know if people have ever told you this, but you are not an authority here, you are not a Lucasarts employee. You sometimes act as if you feel you are superior to others, and on a higher level in wisdom, and thus feel that you can dictate whenever someone's right or wrong. Do people have to come to you whenever they make an argument, and run it by you? In your eyes, yes. In reality, no. Thats what you said earlier, so what exactly are you doing now?

Yep, im a fool for having a different opinion and actually debating it. You're so mature and a godly beacon of knowledge Then prove it. I'm not dismissing it moron.