definitely gonna join you there!

what was your overall dps for the whole parse? Over the 3min ish fight? People are talking about dps loss because even on an opps dummy which gives us 100% uptime, we cannot beat ranged classes dps and since we have much less than 100% uptime on boss fights or pvp our dps is not competitive with those classes.

They are OP, because of there toolset and synergies as you have said/talked about. If you remove deflection hard cc immunity they will still be OP. That is not the defining quality that has made them that powerful. Hell I know a bunch that do not even spec into it because its honestly not needed with how powerful their skillset is already.

Plenty of bad, but thats okay. We have been making our main closer work since beta without unremitting..... Once again all I see is you crying because your sent is not a sin/guardian. Many of us want our class to be BALANCED not a new FOTM, or overtuned like hatred sins are right now. I see you have all 3 FOTM specs as alts, just an observation. Snipers have good defensive cds? Interesting because they are no where near as good as ours..... It shows you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to competitive balance. We are trying to suggest new ways to make our class balanced and retain what makes the sent unique. Buffing pred/trans to give root immunity/mobility is a front runner and there have been others. Once again since you seem to love avoiding this, we are not saying we do not need some help staying on targets, but we do not need force leap to grant cc immunity. Also in watchmen with shorter cd and no min range you are suggesting they are cc immune 25% of the time........ yeah.......... We do not actually need any hard cc immunity to be viable and strong (maybe on UR/GbtF with utility, but that is it).

lol yikes, so much bad in one post. This just in, different classes are different, and you pointed out why shadows are strong because they are not a true melee class..... they can dot/spread from range.... thats why they are so strong right now. I agree their whole tool set is too much but we should not be pushing to be on their level..... thats idiotic.... First off your vigi guard has 4 seconds of cc immunity and DR on his leap and he needs it to set up his rotation and to actually be able to use MS/Ravage and get all 3 hits...... They did not used to have the mobility tools that we do and until recently in this game did not come close to our defenses. Now they are slightly stronger and with a few tweaks we will be right there. Also sins do have force speed root break, last for 2.5 seconds on 15 sec cd if they have specced into all of that. Still is not that hard to keep them at range with roots/kbs if you know how. There is a reason MM sniper comps are competing with double sin comps in 4v4s but im sure thats over your head. Once again we should have similar tools to be able to stay on target and Dark and myself are not arguing against you on that, but we do not need the kit sins have. Its currently broken and they are not really a melee dps with stealth/dot spread/multiple 30m rotation abilities...... Talk about how our class can change/get better, not this constant rant of my shadow has this so my sent should too, its not fair! whine whine whine

Sturdiness does not prevent roots or snares! That is his point, we are shut down not by hard cc but movement impairments(yes i know still a form of cc) but giving us a cc immunity like sins/shadows would actually not help much since a kb/root would still render you useless for most of the cd. We need a mobility buff(most people would call this a way to deal with roots/slows or soft cc's if you want to get technical)

The added range to crippling is fine, still could just bring deadly throw back and not need to waste a utility point.... But at least this is a step in the right direction. The root is very strong now, since with crip slash you could keep someone rooted for a long time..... given many classes have root breaks on short cds(no idea why this was added to basically everyone), but with leap ravage and crip its 8 seconds if you are able to land them all and crip can reset everyone 10 seconds and allow for another root shortly after... The problem with it is that it is a heroic utility..... Which makes it tough since giving up either brooding aoe cc cd reduc and full stacks every fight or expunge on camo since anyone worth their salt is taking unbound anyway. Does the root give as much utility as the other 2? maybe but I doubt it, moving it down a tier or adding another benefit to another skill could make it an actual tough decision. Finally the UR/GbtF change is much needed! Thank you devs, but once again you nerfed it to 3min cd..... It grants no CC immunity, last 4 seconds-6 with heroic utility which is nice but 1 stun or root shuts it down completely. Given it is a fantastic oh **** button, but for 4 seconds the cd should be 2 min. Just a comparison Evasion 3 sec-immune to white dmg 1min cd(75% force tech on snipes, ops shorter cd with specs/utility) Shroud 3-5sec-immune to cc and force/tech/yellow dmg 1min cd UR/GbtF 4 sec immune to both but just dmg, 3 min cd!? really does that justify that extra 2 min? I think 2 min was fine when compared with other classes skills Jugs heal to full is 2min, Sorc bubble is 3 min but thats 8 seconds of absolute immunity/cc breaker plus the stupid bastion at the end. If you make UR/GbtF usuable while cced/cc immunity I will accept a 3min cd but right now it is not worth that.

We do not need more CC immunity in this game, it has already almost completely broken hard switch comps/made them so much harder to pull off. We should not be adding immunities to our class or any other... Sins cc immunity is OP and everyone knows it. Unremitting would be OP for us, please if you do not realize this you do not play PvP at a high level..... Also as Dark stated, we need root immunity/movement impairment immunity to stay on target and the first round of changes does not do enough. The 10m crippling slash is a start but using a heroic utility to root someone at 10m is still not worth it...... especially with brooding and expunge/unbound still in that tier. Mobility is what we need. The change to UR/GBtF is great, but the added CD is not needed since it does not provide any CC immunity so 1 root or stun still shuts us down for the 4 seconds. However it is a much needed change and will definitely help as a great focus/burst prevention tool. Still hoping for some small dps tweaks unless other classes are brought inline since with 100% uptime we still cannot parse close to ranged and I would tell you I am lucky if I have close to 75% uptime against a decent player......

Yes we did actually..... I guess you did not play ranked or any competitive pvp as a carnage mara. Nek is one of the most experienced pvp maras around, when he talks about his experiences they are pretty spot on.

Agree to disagree, but unstop/unremit have always been iconic and unique to shien form(well hybrids had this but they realized it eventually) which is veng/vig spec. To say otherwise shows you either haven't played a veng jug or do not know the classes. We need a unique way to deal with roots/kbs/slows that is not a copy of another class. Pred/trans is an obvious suggestion but it too will look a lot like HO/HtL if we can root/slow/kb immunity for the duration.... I will say it again, we need a small tweak to DCDs *cough* UR/GbTF fix *cough* and fixing some defensive utilities and then we need a way to increase our mobility/time on target that is unique to maras/sents and makes sense with the specs/class. Also just an FYI if we got unstop/unremit, we will instantly be OP and then nerfed the following set of balance changes. You can absolutely destroy someone in a gore window if they cannot cc or kb or root you..... 2 maras jumping to a target would mean either blow DCDs/oh **** button or get destroyed in the 4 secs when you could not stop us..... and we could do that every 12 seconds or less with berserk...... does that sound fair to you?

Some of these are ridiculously OP, but I do like the new ideas/different direction you went in. Unfortunately the devs do not always have that kind of insight. It would also be very tough to balance. The idea of having dots give a % chance to cleanse roots/slows is awesome and I think that would be a cool way to add some time on target/mobility in ways that are unique to the class. I hope they go this way instead of just trans being new Mara HO

You just lost all credibility when you said unstoppable/unremit is not iconic/characteristic of veng/vig. it has been in their spec/discipline since beta and it is their main bonus to shien form..... Yes we both have force leap.... Sorcs/Sins both have force lightening but use it in very different ways depending on specs/situations. This just in, different classes are different. We can get a buff to mobility that helps us stay on target that doesn't just copy and paste 1 spec of the jugs/guards most iconic move...... Everyone knows we need more mobility/time on target. Yes this will up our dps and that will help our damage immensely, but currently if you are allowed 100% uptime on a target, I will still out dps you with my rdps toons. This is a problem since as you showed a rdps can almost always do their damage.... we can not and the devs have stated that our dps is adjusted to account for the fact we cannot always stay on a target. Currently we fall behind with 100% uptime and then get hit even harder when we get kited/have to dodge AoE's/mechanics

Emp is correct we do not need unstoppable, it is iconic to veng/vig and should stay that way. Many of the suggestions here are good ideas. A little bit more uptime on target is all we need, plus UR/GBtF returned to its normal form. Sure some of the utilities should be optimized/redone but overall a small buff to DCD and a way to intelligently avoid control/roots and increase time on target is all we need. More important is BW/EA balancing range dps vs melee as currently our dps falls a bit short of ranged classes even with 100% uptime. This is a problem to me as I have to both try to chase them in PvP and dodge a bunch of ****/eat AoE's in PvE and ranged does not. My suggestions is still to bring our surge talents back into line with other classes Anni gets a tiny increase on bleeds..... Carnage gets bonus to Mass and DB, but not VT or Ataru nor do they get a ravage dmg increase..... Fury actually gets a decent surge bonus and can be decently bursty with the right set up but its sustained and reliance on bezerk is annoying. Or just bring ranged dmg back in line and you can leave all of our stuff alone! Your choice devs

L2 watch peoples buff bar/CDs..... No class has 100% uptime on root immunity. Not even the sins with their fantastic DCD and cc immunities. With a ranged root and specifically a ranged trauma debuff, it gives you choices/situations where you can keep someone from getting away from you once you get slowed, or rooting them after HO/Speed wears off allowing you to reclose and keep dpsing. It has a multitude of uses over leg slash and the horrid double GCD root we currently have to waste a utility to get.

Of course he is..... He is one of the best sorc players around. No where in my comment did I say he was not...... That does not change the fact that if you watch him vs the maras in multiple occasions it is incredibly easy for him to keep them at more than 4m distance....... The point of the post was to show that, the class needs some help staying on target and he gives a perfect example of that. My sorc OP comment was more about the 3v1s where he could handle the dps of 2 sins and a mara pretty easily with heals/speed/bubble and good use of CD's. That seems pretty crazy to me given all the utilities and damage sorcs can put out right now. Does his ability as a player shine? Absolutely, but you still gotta see some of the glaring imbalances in pvp right now.