Bioware did the same with ME's Jack and Miranda and with DA with Morigan, Fenris, Isabela and so so many more... At least you kept some of the good ones there, but in SWTOR you took it all away. At least give us a force wielder from the old stories that's not Xalek and has the power of at least 6 word sentances.

So another livestream, got us all excited about getting some of the pillars of the story bits – the Force and actually your creations and how it manifests in the SWTOR world. This is partially, but not entirely about those: Those girls (picture) Now you might not perceive it as such, but the Force is a huge part of the magic in Star Wars and all Force users pass it on to their almost a daughter (in all those cases) figure. You see it in the movies – Kenobi (old Ben or Obi Wan) was the father figure for both Anakin and Luke, Qui Gon Jinn was Obi Wan’s, and so on and so forth. We, the players that are so in to Force users and the fantasy of it all desperately need such a figure and you took it (in a good twist), but never bothered to replace it. On the last livestream you confirmed you’re not really investing in companions on this and we’re left with not much. Don’t have that companion that looks up to us with everybody I speak to, we miss it so very much. I can go on this forever, but you’re really good at this and I think you got the point. I’m not saying you should just plaster them in to the story, make it like a long companion recruitment alert to gather a bunch of loot all over the place, give it to Darth Jadus who’s gonna make us soak something in the Blood of Kephes on a very particular place in Manan and we get to save them all or something. We, the players involved in this really miss this part. I really would like your take on this, so we can have some hope at least. Another …. What about this guy: Another picture Really, sitting on Makeb drinking while this is happening? As a player who knows who he is, it’s so emersion breaking to not see somebody so intertwined with the Emperor to just vanish. Make no mistake – we’re all very invested and “almost” cool companions that don’t speak common are not a viable replacement. P.S. – The Jedi we find as part of the SF… why?... just why…..

Thank you for keeping us updated Bioware! Appreciate it! One last request. Please make a new mount - one of the pigs that we had to kill on Rishi and give everyone that has it an achievment "Slimy like a Hutt" so we can all see it. Then, would you kindly proceed with awarding the said mount to all the waste of flesh greedy loosers that demand compensation for a small downtime? It would mean a world to me if I can identify people like that ingame as well and make all of our Star Wars saga polutent-free while I continue to enjoy the game that I love with the gratitude of a man that understands how much goes in to it. Cheers!

Or at least give us the options to replay the story with level balancing in the story specific phases. You've proven it could be done!!!

@Kawabonga you're right, Maul/Shadow Strike is an awesome skill we get to use f2f, excellent threat and damage output. Unlike Project/Shock however, it's proc is limited to once every 10 sec. Let's define a few things clear, because I don't want to make of this a borderline Thrash vs Discharge religion thing. Every single skill you have needs to be timed in relevance to what you're actually doing and what is actually important in that particular fight at that point. In PVP we can argue the damage you put out and the debuffs, and all that wonderful stuff, but I really hope we were all talking about PVE here (at least I was). I've been engaging high DPS phases and ditching mitigation entirely when we either kill fast or die anyway by thrashing, shocking, mouling and the below 30% thingy just for the sole purpose of putting out procs as much as possible and damage as much as possible out there(occasional shock + FL Recklessness). I've entered tank switches without protection stacks just because a DPS is too lazy to farm his gear and relies on drops. All I'm saying is that in a general fight, Discharge/Breach has a important place in your tank skill prioritization (I don't really wanna call it rotation anymore...) as long as you are able to keep your protection stacks and prioritize properly. It's 10m mobile friendly (if you have to move and the boss is like an old lady on a train) and as long as you proc and use your Maul/Shadow Strike proc every 10 sec, throw a Discharge/Breach. Maybe I was a bit loose when I said "use brech/discharge on cooldown". My point, again, is once you have and use your Mauk/SS proc have it prioritized over the next Thrash/DS.This will also not starve you for force since it's cheap, debuffs the boss and keeps you threat happy in a GCD and it's not "surprisingly bad".

It's not worth mentioning. You are using TP data only. Here's Aelanis's explanation why this is misleading: I encourage you to try tanking Tyrans just by standing pretty and taunting for tank swaps and tell us how it goes Full proper rotation on a dummy is not possible. Keeping protection stacks up is just about.

@Malaka_Blue, I'm talking about the Bulwark stacks, not the protection stacks. @THoK-Zeus You just stated that you rather do a 3k threat move and hope for an unfavorable(not so much, but still) procs than do a GCD for a 3.4k threat... in an age of competing DPS that can roll out 30k damage in 3-4 GCDs and our epic accuracy with increasing number, unwillingness to incorporate pull(most threat in GCD) in the rotation of fights that you actually can not afford to taunt... I can not take you seriously. Rant all you want, I think is time I start ignoring you. @KBN For the record, I still don't agree with the whole "FB/discharge is crap" statement. I still believe that it should not be skipped unless the protection stacks are running out and you need to apply the TT/FL I want to make something clear - TT/FL is your mother of mitigation skill, but I'm saying that if you have a real reason to cut it short you should. Ex. - Moving the boss out of his buff/debuff skill on DP, Taunting for an immediate tank switch, etc. Cutting it short in order to use use another skill that is off cooldown is not OK, if nothing else, you've already laid 30 force to cast it... I'm not sure, but I've personally never been starved for force except for really annoying bosses like the TFB 2nd phase, Nerfa, Brontes.. but never the less, never critically out. Today I decided to try your rotation in a SM 16m and looking a bit more in to this, I noticed that Double Strike/Maul and Project/Shock are actually your most expensive skills. Grinding for a proc with double strke/thrash actually drains you quite a bit. It's true I probably use project a certain % less than you, but am not sure if that extra 3/6 force per Breach/Discharge cast isn't beneficial in the long run in terms of resource management. With Breach in the rotation I was able to keep the 4 protection stacks up even on a dummy (just on the tip, but still...). Tried the same with no Breach - got resource starved and missed a few. If you decide to try it, share your experience plz. If you have characters on the ToFN we can do a DF /stuck run on Grob’Thok so you can test it out on an actual boss. I personally can do both Shadow/Sin or in any role for that matter.

I only stated the proc chance is unfavorable. Anything less than 50% by definition makes it that. Are you assuming force breach/discharge doesn't crit? As evident in what I posted above, it does - it's 5.2k threat. Damage, yes, threat no. None of my numbers show what you are trying to twist. From the data we gathered - it's right up there with shock/project... not sure if you've been following There's no such thing and "threat doesn't matter anymore". If you're more than 10m away from the boss you're taking, yes it's a viable option since you don't really have a skill that does more threat in a GCD(except the taunts ofc). When taking over a boss when tank switch comes according to my healers proves beneficial. It's not a rule set in stone. If you're using a reusable adrenal according to my experience is beneficial in most cases. You're assuming every attack lands. which is not the case. Remember they fixed the protection to stack even when you miss? Remember how much worse it was keeping your stacks up, should you let it drop? I don't want people to take my word for anything I have to say, let alone you, as a set in stone. I'm stating there are some points of misinformation in this post and everybody needs to test this on their own. I don't care if you really ain't worth sith.

KBN, you actually make a good point and I'm not ashamed to admit I was wrong. Doesn't make your equation right thoe. You use the word "precisely" rather loosely. Giving it a little more thought it's true we need an event to occur once out of 2 attempts, but you aren't taking into account the 93% accuracy tanks should have, which drives the event chance a dial back. This turns in to a Complex Domain Probability (not entirely sure that this is the translation in English for it since I've been learning this in another language). Will dig up my old textbooks and make the equation, but I'm still pretty sure it's still going to be less than 50% (which should make it unfavorable chance). On 02.01.2014 , 09:32 PM | #31 you commented on the following and tried to disprove my statements in my first post: No worries, you don't sound elitist at all . As I stated, as a vanguard/powertech you have to watch for one proc Pulse Engine/Flame Engine. The rest is skill priority once it comes off cooldown. Heat blast/Energy Blast is always ready to use once it comes off cooldown and you're tanking. This makes it rotation friendly. Shadow/Assassins have multiple procs and active mitigation management. Also, we're cooldown addicted... About resource management: As long as you prioritize properly I don't see how what you said is even relevant. Exceptions are ofc when you need to help out in dps or make sure you are refreshing your protection stacks, so you're ready to take over. and Now that we determined that you were fooled by a side application's statistics (which does not excuse you btw), I take it we all agree that Slow Time and Force Breach are your top non-proc threat generators. Next ones, I'm not going to quote, since you're not the only one stating different stuff: About engaging with an absorb adrenal: If you're cheap and you don't want to spend money, make your tank a biochem. I do it to ensure a smooth start without any spikes and stuff while everybody is ramping up and positioning themselves. As a Shadow / Assassin I have plenty of cooldowns to use and now I'm having trouble thinking of a fight that requires constant mitigation spike shortly after the start. More to the point, Shadow/Assassins usually assume the role of the offtank, being because they drop their phase walk or because other tanks have more armor than us and the raid leader is more comfortable. When taking over the fight for the other tank is a very good moment to engage with a stim. Regarding pulls and taunts - I believe we determined that the taunt is a threat multiplier, but not YOUR threat multiplier as some people have been insisting. So if you do a tank switch(and yes, with a taunt, which does not share the GCD) a pull after the taunt would boost your threat in the long run. I would also like to add that Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning is overrated as a threat generator (invaluable as a mitigation tool, which means you shouldn't shy away of cutting it short if you're just refreshing your 4 stacks if you had them prior. From your log: Telekinetic Throw (average threat x4): 11136.08 Taking in to account that it's a 3 sec cast - 3712 threat per hit Darth_Dreselus, You still have plenty of time to refresh the 4 protection of stacks even if you use Breach/Discharge in rotation. And he insisted that this guide is optimized for both mitigation and threat generation. On a personal level - there is no emotional attachment to anything I've said. I even learned a fun fact about the Double Strike/Thrash proc chance. I just noticed inaccuracies in your guide that need to be addressed, because this leads to some very sithy situations. If a new player comes it, they'll take a look at the guide, get some partially wrong tips that might get them kicked out of a raid group and it might lead to leaving the game for good. I've seen it before - people coming in, armed with a bucket of partially inaccurate info and being blamed for it. I don't need any knowledge myself in case you're wondering. Don't care if my point gets through, I just beg the people reading "tanking rotations" to explore for themselves and doubt everything. Including my statements too! I just know that what I'm doing works better for me quite well in comparison with the other shadow/assassin tanks I'm coming across.

@THoK-Zeus To be completely honest, haven't given it that much thought if the 2 attacks counted towards the roll. I always thought it was on the Upheaval/Chain Shock principle (namely - the triggered effect chance is rolled on the ability activation). Turns out you're right, it really does count each and every time is does damage (dat melee attack thoe ). I just tested it and it's apparent: 03:38:47.817 You activate Double Strike 03:38:47.817 You spend 23 Force 03:38:48.038 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 718 energy damage (1 436 threat) 03:38:48.508 You gain Particle Acceleration 03:38:48.509 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 732 energy damage (1 465 threat) 03:36:24.998 You gain Particle Acceleration 03:36:25.183 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 1 195* energy damage (2 390 threat) 03:36:25.985 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 696 energy damage (1 393 threat) It's a fun fact, but the best thing about it is it doesn't prove your point. The % chance is still 30%. Just like if you toss a coin, regardless of how many times it lands on heads, next toss is still 50/50. The correct equation is 30/100 + 30/100 or (2*30)/(2*100) etc. You still were prepared to lie to people coming here for tips to cover up your shame caused by either ignorance or desperation Here's a Force Breach with a crit : 03:43:52.671 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Accuracy Reduced 03:43:52.671 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Combat Technique for 298 internal damage (596 threat) 03:43:52.672 Combat Technique causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 171 03:43:52.672 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Force Breach for 1 763* internal damage (5 290 threat) 03:43:53.098 Force Breach causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 I'll take 5.2k threat in a GCD any day. I also never figured out what the 2nd tick is for. Perhaps it's a modifier on its own and I'll test it for myself with a DPS once I get the chance. @Darth_Dreselus & @Aelanis God bless you - finally an intelligent response... Although The million dollar question is who's 110/130% of threat is it adding to the pool? Is it always yours, Is it your highest threat holder, Is it an average.... been nerding this out for a while. I know one thing. When parcing on a dummy along with a DPS this happens: Straight from out of combat: 12:35:58.717 You enter combat 12:35:58.754 You activate Mind Control 12:35:58.754 You lose Sprint effect 12:35:58.755 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt 12:35:58.755 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (3 threat) 12:35:59.188 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 With a DPS buddy going all out on the dummy and me just autoattacking: 12:55:03.720 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt 12:55:03.720 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (94 749 threat) 12:55:04.178 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 With the DPS (unguarded) and me doing a rotation(slacking a bit so he gets more threat than me): 12:59:19.666 You activate Mind Control 12:59:19.666 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt 12:59:19.667 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (8 504 threat) 12:59:20.132 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 12:59:25.763 Operations Training Target MK-5 loses your Taunt effect Additionally in ops, I have parsec on the 2nd monitor and when smb is spiking and I taunt, I get a boost very similar to his/hers. I say similar, because I can't accurately follow it in real time - parcers lag and I can only eyeball it. A marksman/sharpshooter sniper/gunslinger has a very distinctive opener agro print, so this is where my conclusion comes that you are leveled and given a tiny advantage to the highest threat. This is how it works in WoW so from the tools we have I'm not seeing a better way to investigate this than pairing symptoms. Let me know your thoughts on this.

This is a lie: Energize While Dark Charge is active, damage dealt by Thrash, Maul, Lacerate and Assassinate has a 30% chance to finish the cooldown on Shock and make your next Shock a critical hit. Energized Shocks that consume a charge of Recklessness deal an additional 50% critical damage. On the republic side it's called Particle Acceleration. The % chance, as stated, is unfavorable. Shock/Project is superior. Spamming the threat inferior Thrash/Double Strike for a 30% chance for your shock/project and/or shadow strike/maul(limited to once every 10 sec) to proc instead of applying a Force Breach/Discharge is bad for your agro generation. Also, Thrash/Double strike, costs more force than Force Breach/Discharge. Proof please. Where do you have this knowledge? This is one of those moments, where the word on the street doesn't hold any value

Unbelievable... I'm done with this. Theory craft all you want with marginal arguments from an inaccurate side application and infantile urge not to be embraced about the only thing you've been lying to yourself you're good at. For your own sake and if you are able, please read your actual logs. I started posting this here, so people can have an actual perspective and numbers out of the logs. Here is a summary of the skills in question with BIS + full willpower and str datacron collection: 12:20:16.462 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Force Breach for 1 154 internal damage (3 463 threat) I'd like to point out that this is NOT a crit. 12:24:50.629 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 751 energy damage (1 502 threat) (also a non-crit one. Provided we go for middle ground and the other one neither misses or crits x 2 = 3004 Threat) Both attacks are performed in the same conditions. Lie to everybody again how using a debuf ranged ability that generated more threat on average than a melee ability that has an unfavorable chance to proc one of your other good skills is "really, really, surprisingly bad". I'm not trying to play teacher. My recommendation to the people reading this thread is to take it as a good general advise, but please make some research on your own. I don't insist on being on top, so if anyone doesn't take my advice, hope you're doing better than me I've provided as much proof as I can provide on a training dummy + actual logs, regarding how taunt works without going a video, and I'm certainly not doing this for this thread since you'll just simply deny without providing any proof of your own. Read please. For the record - I've never been in to WoW, checked it out, got to lvl 20 and hated it. And for the people that ask for logic while they're drunk: 1. You pull, gain 8k+ threat -> taunt and level your threat to the highest one in your group = wasted pull 2. Taunt and level your threat to the highest one in your group -> You pull, gain 8k+ threat = you gain that much threat to your new and modified agro pool. And yes, there is a good chance somebody HAS higher threat than you, since it takes 150% of threat for that one to steal agro. You decide for yourselves which is the superior move. And remember kids, I don't have to do anything - everybody can jump on parsec and/or read the actual logs and see that you're full of sith, so don't be a Jar-Jar

1. Force Breach/DIscharge is a force attack. Double strike is a melee attack. How much strength do you have because my numbers include full datacrons strength bonus. Your crit should be around 50-52% if you're geared enough, so you have a 50-52% chance to make it viable. No, the shock/project proc doesn't proc every time and the backstab proc is limited for a proc every 10 sec by default. Let's make this clear. I'm not saying do NOT use double strike/thrash in your rotation - on the contrary - this is your bread and butter. But as is apparent in the logs I provided above, pound by pound it's one of your main threat generators and not just a debuf. You can go without of course, you're a shadow'/assassin, but we're talking about optimal stuff here, or am I mistaking. Test it yourself with a buddy on a dummy. When you taunt, you level with his threat, regardless of your previous agro pool. If you waste a pull or w/e heavy threat move it's for nothing (unless you are harnessing the 3 stacks). Using a taunt + pull(just as an example) levels you with the top threat and then adds the 8k+ threat to your threat pool. Wasting a GCD was meant to state you might as well do another move. Oh, and: Taunts do not share the GCD ffs...

Supposedly when taunting from a distance you still level out with the highest threat, but get 10%(or some %) of that as bonus. The taunt mith that taunting from distance comes from the Blizzard game. Basically it works the same for the melee range there too, but in SWTOR it's very hard to test and accurately confirm the range taunt. In the "cartoon orcs and pink dragons drinking from a teal lakes" game it could be tested and confirmed with some plugins. We simply can not test it with the measuring tools we have here.

Well since you asked nicely here's the ACTUAL log pulled via parsec: Project/Shock 12:18:36.798 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Project for 1 585 kinetic damage (3 646 threat) (the bombardment crit) 12:21:47.276 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Project for 2 380* kinetic damage (5 476 threat) Slow time/Wither 12:19:49.897 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Slow Time for 1 381 kinetic damage (4 143 threat) Force Breach/Discharge 12:20:16.462 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Force Breach for 1 154 internal damage (3 463 threat) Double Strike: (it needs to be noted that this is just ONE hit of the 2 double strike hits. It's a melee attack and as a tank you decide how lucky you are to keep hitting and critting) (crit)12:20:47.009 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 1 197* energy damage (2 394 threat) (no crit)12:24:50.629 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Double Strike for 751 energy damage (1 502 threat) Shadow Strike/Maul (shadow strike proc + crit)12:22:21.730 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Shadow Strike for 3 239* energy damage (6 479 threat) (shadow strike proc, no crit)12:23:06.473 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Shadow Strike for 2 273 energy damage (4 546 threat) Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning TT with 3 stacks HS: 12:26:20.267 You gain Shadow Protection 12:26:20.268 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:26:20.268 You gain Unshakable 12:26:21.305 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Combat Technique for 298 internal damage (596 threat) 12:26:21.306 Combat Technique causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 171 12:26:21.306 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:26:22.313 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:26:23.271 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:26:23.273 You lose Harnessed Shadows effect With FP: 12:32:03.223 You activate Force Potency 12:32:03.223 You gain Force Potency 12:32:03.529 You activate Telekinetic Throw 12:32:03.529 You spend 30 Force 12:32:03.530 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Combat Technique for 298 internal damage (596 threat) 12:32:03.530 Combat Technique causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 171 12:32:03.530 You gain Shadow Protection 12:32:03.531 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 787* kinetic damage (3 574 threat) 12:32:03.531 You gain Unshakable 12:32:04.622 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:32:05.627 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:32:06.633 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 183 kinetic damage (2 367 threat) 12:32:06.634 You lose Harnessed Shadows effect Without 3 stacks (this isn't supposed to happen, but here's the effect anyway): 12:27:37.481 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 676 kinetic damage (1 352 threat) 12:27:38.543 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 1 021* kinetic damage (2 042 threat) 12:27:39.549 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 676 kinetic damage (1 352 threat) 12:27:40.547 You hit Operations Training Target MK-5 with Telekinetic Throw for 676 kinetic damage (1 352 threat) Here's the Force Pull: 12:28:56.921 You activate Force Pull 12:28:56.921 You lose Sprint effect 12:28:57.486 Force Pull causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 8 592 This makes apparent than pound for pound Force Breach/Discharge is still your main unproced threat generator. It is not a waste and it's certainly more viable applying it than spamming double strike. I agree completely that having full 8 stacks of Kenetic/Dark Bulwark you should not reapply the ward and instead pop an absorb adrenal when the sith hits the fan. Please don't be a torparse warrior and read your actual logs. I'm taking the time to write this not to prove you wrong and make you look bad, but to actually make sure people are not getting lied to. Your "assassin/shadow rotation" should work in average groups, since the assassin/shadow tank has the best agro ark out of the 3. Props for taking time to write this, but if you're wrong, please correct yourself. Stubbornly denying the numbers will only cause people to do this themselves and you'll turn out to be full of sith And since I got the impression you have no idea how taunt works, I'd be happy to teach you. Here's how taunt works: The group has a shared threat pool that everybody builds with stuff. A taunt doesn't give you a bucket of free threat. When you taunt, you gain threat as the highest threat in the group and gain advantage of 2(two) threat over the said undisciplined DPS. This is apparent by the following logs: Straight from out of combat: 12:35:58.717 You enter combat 12:35:58.754 You activate Mind Control 12:35:58.754 You lose Sprint effect 12:35:58.755 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt 12:35:58.755 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (3 threat) 12:35:59.188 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 With a DPS buddy going all out on the dummy and me just autoattacking: 12:55:03.720 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt 12:55:03.720 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (94 749 threat) 12:55:04.178 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 With the DPS (unguarded) and me doing a rotation(slacking a bit so he gets more threat than me): 12:59:19.666 You activate Mind Control 12:59:19.666 Operations Training Target MK-5 gains Taunt 12:59:19.667 You taunt Operations Training Target MK-5 (8 504 threat) 12:59:20.132 Mind Control causes your threat on Operations Training Target MK-5 to change by 2 12:59:25.763 Operations Training Target MK-5 loses your Taunt effect This means that if lets say on a tank switch you pull and then taunt - you waste your pull (and a GC). If you taunt and THEN pull you get 8k+ threat over the rest of the group. Same goes for taunting before the DPS agro dump and hitting the thingy with TT or your backstab or w/e strongest agro generator.