Thank you for expressing this better than I have ever been able to do. Hopefully you will make people understand how complex the interactions are between abilities, talents, fight mechanics, buffs and debuffs. Maybe you can make them realize you can't compute meaningful results without an enormous amount of actual logs to be analyzed by someone who understands statistics at a level that would leave most of us drooling and incoherent. Preach on.

As I have said over and over again, I don't care what spec people choose, how they build it or how they play. I believe people in the game should be free to do what they want to be entertained. You, however, citing unsubstantiated claims of "community ramifications", believe you should be able to prohibit people from using meters for their entertainment. Could you please [3rd request] clarify why you feel you're entitled to determine how people should entertain themselves? If a group of people want to use meters and they use them incorrectly (in your opinion), why is that any business of yours? If you don't like it just don't group with them. Or if you're putting together a group, make it clear that meters aren't permitted and remove offenders. It is your right to exclude people who aren't going to help your group have fun. I prefer high performance players, so I don't join pugs with people who are specced/geared incorrectly (in my opinion) and then tell them what to do. I don't try to fix them, I just don't group with them. By the same token, however, if I'm forming the group, I'm well within my rights to limit participation to people who share similar ideas of what is fun and exclude people who aren't going to help my group have fun. These aren't "community ramifications". These are different philosophies of game play, and groups made of people with different goals are what creates "community ramifications". Stop blaming a tool people use for their own entertainment for what ultimately boils down to the result of millions of different people playing the same game for different reasons.

Why do you feel entitled to be the judge of what is fine? What if "just fine" for me and my friends is fastest kill times world wide? Why can't we set the bar of what is "just fine" for ourselves? You keep missing the fact that people have the right to be bad. They can play a terrible spec if they want. They can spam their least damaging attack or heal. They can use the wrong gear if it makes them happy. They also have the right to misuse meters, no matter how much you think they shouldn't. I can't make it any simpler than this: If you don't like the way someone uses a meter then don't group with them. Please find any one of my posts where my argument is supported by saying anything about scrubs. Just one. I don't know or care what you have or haven't cleared, but if it is in WoW it isn't possible for you to have done anything I haven't done and I want them. Which is just as irrelevant when you post it. The only relevant facts are these: 1) some people would like to use meters to enhance their game experience 2) use of these meters is completely optional, as is grouping with people who use them 3) people who do not like meters would remain free to enjoy the game without them

I am supporting the inclusion of an OPTIONAL tool. I am not trying to force anyone to use it. You are trying to force me to accept the game without it. Once it gets into the game, the community will force nothing on you that you don't accept. Claiming that content can be built around meters is like claiming that thermometers affect the weather. I have read every word in this thread and the several clones that have dropped off the first page, something you clearly haven't done as evidenced by your first post. I saw your combat log idea, but you don't clearly articulate why I "should be content" with it because you are. Why can't I decide for myself what makes me content or not? Why do you get to decide for me? I am forced not to optimize by the lack of combat log data and the convenient real time measure of that data in meter format. I have claimed in every post I've made however that using meters is optional, so you should have recognized that what you and I are doing is completely different.

Same tired, selfish crap people have been posting for pages. Elitism, blah blah, ruins community, blah blah, you don't need them anyway, blah blah. Since ideally a discussion is interactive, I'll ask for someone to please try to answer the following questions: If there are people in the game that have the most fun in a high powered, optimized, min/maxed group (with meters), and that isn't your idea of fun, then why do you think the right answer is to force them to play your way (without meters) instead of you finding a group of people that fits with you better? If you don't like the way "most people" will use the meters, why can you not just avoid grouping with them?

You sidestepped my question, but this is new and well thought out so no kittens die for this =) You've listed a bunch of uses of meters, some good some bad. The point is, people have the right to be bad, whether it's choosing a bad spec, a bad rotation, or a bad way to apply dps numbers. If a group of bad pugs want to post dps after a 30 sec wipe and they're having fun doing that, then don't be in that group if you don't like it. I just really resent the idea that people's behavior can be policed by denying them tools. And it doesn't matter if I'm fooling myself about how many want to use them correctly or you are. What matters is people want to use them, and they shouldn't be forbidden them just because some other people don't. Let everyone play the game how they want, and find groups with people who share their ideas of fun. Then everybody wins, no one has to compromise. Meters don't "force" anyone to anything they don't want to do. AC and build are choices. If you choose to care what the meter says then you may choose AC and build to min/max. If you choose to play the AC and build you like then you ignore the meter. You say nightmare modes are being done just fine, but why do you get to decide what is fine for me? Can't I decide? What if fine for me is nothing short of the fastest boss kills in the world? I'm not allowed to set the bar where I want for my own fun if I can find other people that also want to do that?

Those 2 above you proved nothing except that their playstyle is different than yours. You anti-meter people are always crying about people not telling you how to play but that's exactly what you're doing when you whine about not allowing "elitism". Some people have fun optimizing and min/maxing. If you don't, don't group with them. Find a group of people who share your ideals of fun and stop trying to force others to accept you if you don't match. I challenge one of you anti-meter people, just one, to stop spouting a repetitive argument that is no better than "Brawndo's got electrolytes, it's what plants crave..." and really try to answer the following question: If there are people in the game that have the most fun in a high powered, optimized, min/maxed group, and that isn't your idea of fun, then why do you think the right answer is to force them to play your way instead of you finding a group of people that fits with you better? For every anti-meter person that ignores this question and instead posts the same tired crap: "elitism" "ruins community" "you don't need them to win", I will drown a kitten. Please think of the kittens before you respond.

Reading is apparently hard. Pay $15 and play however the hell you want. Join a group of people and help them have fun or get booted. Why do you people have such a hard time with that concept? If I join a group of RPers and refuse to play the way they want to, then I ruin their fun and I get booted. If you join a group of performance raiders and refuse to perform the way they want, you ruin their fun and get booted. There is NOTHING elitist about expecting people in a group to share a common ideal of fun. If someone in the group doesn't share that ideal they should find a group of people who do, instead of coming here endlessly complaining about people not letting them play.

It's like you don't read anything anyone else posts but instead just keep spouting your own nonsense to muddy the issue. If most people are having fun clearing the content on the class/spec they've chosen meters won't change that. With meters, they will continue on as they have, but with perhaps a higher level of performance all around if they're interested in peaking their chosen class/spec. However, some people will want to maximize, and if there is a 2% difference that is confirmed they will play to that. And you still won't address the fact that, if that's what is fun for them, why you think you have the right to preclude them from it. If that's no fun for you, all you have to do is avoid raid groups that play to that extreme. Most pug groups, and most guild groups for that matter, aren't stacking classes for min/maxing. You will only see that at the top end of competitive progression. So you're arguing against meters, which are beneficial to a huge player population, to prevent a tiny minority of players from excluding people that aren't invited to their party anyway.

Over the course of these threads I have gotten really, really tired of the claim that players with meters "grief" people. It is a lie told from a ridiculously self-centered perspective. If people are forming a raid with the expectation of success, then joining that group brings the responsibility of performing well. This means proper spec, appropriate gear, and a competent understanding of class mechanics. If someone fails to bring those things and vastly underperforms then they are not a victim. They have put themselves in this position and are, in fact, having a negative effect on the fun of the people they are grouped with. Yes, that person paid $15 to play how they want and shouldn't be told what is right or wrong. But the other 7 people have paid $105 and have a right to expect that everyone who has voluntarily grouped with them is going to help them have fun the way those 7 people want to play. No one is telling you that you can't run a busted spec and make a raid full of people in RP slave outfits spamming nothing but force lighting all night long. If you and the people in your raid are having fun then by all means, do it that way every week. But why do you feel like you have some sort of right to raid with anyone at anytime and not feel an obligation to help them have fun too? Why do you feel entitled to make everyone else accept your playstyle? If I join the costume raid above and refuse to wear the gear that everyone is wearing and insist on using abilities other than force lightning then I'm forcing that group to accept my playstyle even though that's not why they are there. And after griefing them this way, when they kick me I'm self-centered enough to cry about "elitists" being mean? I asked for it by not being willing to help their group have fun their way. If you join a performance raid and refuse to do what is accepted and understood to maximize performance then YOU are the problem. No one will try to tell you how to play until YOU put YOURSELF into positions where YOU have a responsibilty to more people's fun than just your own.

I see a problem. This isn't the 1912 Olympics, it's an MMO in 2012. It's played on a machine that is capable of keeping track of the time with much more accuracy, keeping track of the health and calculating it all much faster than me. And it does all this while I sit back, relax, and do what the game is for: entertain myself playing it. Then at my leisure I can go through the results and see what I'd like to change. It's absurd that you think a stopwatch and repetition is equal to logs/parses/meters.

I swore I wouldn't post here again too, but your post is full of misinformation. You claim that guilds shouldn't need a meter for progression. However, in a thread asking about finding information for dps min/maxing and specific damage info for rotations you said: In one thread you very clearly state your understanding that necessary information isn't available, while in this thread you claim that people shouldn't need meters (that provide that info incidently). This is just ridiculous hyperbole. I have played with hundreds of people in raid situations and most of them understand how to correctly use a meter. As for the "impact" on the game there is absolutely ZERO negative impact. I said this in another thread and it bears repeating here: Nobody can make you feel bad about your terrible dps unless you join a group that cares about performance. Some people are jerks about it. They will be jerks whether or not there are meters. If you don't like meters don't use them, and don't group with people who do. Please try to understand that if you don't care how badly you play, and you join a group of people trying to have fun by excelling at the game, that YOU are the problem, not them. If a high performance player joins a group of RPers showing off costumes and tries to get them to post DPS, then you can complain about meters "ruining the community".

I will make this as simple as I possibly can. Some people enjoy playing the game competitively and want to optimize their performance in every way possible. Some people enjoy playing the game without searching for the best spec and the optimal rotation. Including a dps meter allows the competitive people the use of a tool which enhances their particular enjoyment of the game with NO CONSEQUENCE to other players. And please, before anyone else types any more garbage about the "negative impact" dps meters have, or how they "ruin the community" think about this without emotion for a moment. Nobody is seeking players out, inviting them to group to test their dps and then calling them bad. If you have been treated badly by someone "because of the dps meter" you have brought it on yourself in two ways. 1) you joined a group that was motivated by performance and 2) you failed to perform well. I really don't care how bad your spec, your rotation, or your play is until you join a raid with me and waste everyone else's time. It is extremely self-centered to believe that in a group situation you should be able to play however you want for your own fun even at the expense of everyone else. This sense of entitlement is what ruins communities, not dps meters. Dps meters don't "force" you to spec or play any certain way. Choosing to join a group that cares about success is what forces players to choose optimal specs and rotations. The meter is nothing but a tool used by these players who are trying to optimize. People spend a great deal of time and energy to learn how to get the most out of their characters. If you don't want to spend the same effort that is fine, it's not required. But you shouldn't join a group of people who do that for their fun. If you want to group with people you should either find a group of like-minded individuals or form your own raid where you get to establish the norms. To sum up, the pro-meter people want a tool available for people that use it, and are fine with it being ignored by people who don't find that playstyle fun. To each his own. The anti-meter people don't want the tool and therefore don't want it available to anyone. They apparently believe everyone should play their way. Finally, yes some people will be jerks if we add a dps meter. They will be jerks if we don't add a meter. Because they are just jerks.

Did you know that there are accountants using computers to do their long strings of arithmetic for them? Did you know that if they were so good at math they could just spend the time it takes to do it with a pencil and paper instead of being lazy and letting some program calculate it almost instantly? If they are so hell bent on doing taxes they should do the math work themselves instead of focusing their time on understanding tax laws and figuring out how to use all the numbers the computer calculated. Furthermore, why the hell are people letting cell phone companies carry them? If someone has a piece of information that they want to get to someone else across the country are they too good to carry it there themselves? Lazy lazy lazy.

I want to be part of a basketball team. However, I don't want anyone telling me how I should play (coaching me to improve). I like to dribble with the back of my hand (badly) and shoot underhanded (also badly) because it's fun and I don't need people telling me it's wrong and trying to make me do it their way (the techniques that years of experience have shown to optimize performance). I also don't think statistics like points scored, rebounds, and blocked shots should be kept because I'm good enough to know that I'm doing just as well, if not better, than anyone else on the team without quantifiable measurements. Keeping statistics might reveal that I'm deluding myself so it's best if we leave them out. Anyone who doesn't want me on the team is a jerk who takes the game too seriously (likes winning). Even though we lose sometimes (always) it isn't (is) because of my fun play style (terrible performance). Also hammers and screwdrivers should be outlawed because people could hit people or stab other people with them. This relatively infrequent misuse with respect to their primary functions as important tools should be overlooked.