I already made the point about barrels, hilts and maybe non-lettered mods selling. People will spend money, but crafting isn't just money. It's utility and convenience. Again, I've conceded that the top tier need not be craftable, but I feel like the rest is, as Mallorik said, over the top. They've drastically reduced the demand for the top craftable tier by putting them in all forms of PVE. That's part of the the original post. Read through all the OP and replies if you want my full opinion. It's a lot to catch up on, but I think we'll avoid a lot of backtracking replies.. Second, black market/arkanian lettered mods are better than DG. Here is the math: Dread - 56 Main stat and 44 power/crit 30a mods - 77 Main stat and 29 power/crit For a loss of 15 power, you gain 21 main stat. Then add the 1.1x multiplier for sin buff and a your class multiplier (6% Sin 9% Agent etc), and you can see that the new 30a mods are better than Dread Guard. The endurance is just a bonus. But you are right about Verpine and Underworld gear. The non-lettered Arkanian will be better than lettered top tier. If you're having to earn all the gear, devs love to waste your time min/maxing.

I point out that this isn't the point of the post, and some other guy comes and quotes the part of my reply that has nothing to do with it. Awesome. Also, the very best craftable gear comes from the hardest PvE content. It's actually the second best gear, and most of it is available in FPs in Ops, which is one of the points of my post. Why make 30s so hard to craft if the gear is so easily obtainable. Also, 28 gear is only sufficient if you're skilled and familiar with the content. It's only a baby step in front of dread guard. Trust me when I say that you can have no carries in your group, if you want to run with just 28s. Scum and Villainy HM is balanced for near full Arkanian. If you thought EC EV KP and TFB were the only ops, then yes 28s are good enough for all PVE content. "More than sufficient" isn't accurate when talking about full 28s.

This post isn't only about the one quote you pulled out of the 1000 words I posted. Bioware seems really worried about fairness, and that's the point I was making with the alienation. Pvpers and casual players alike are going to complain if they can't do what hardcore raiders are able to do (and vice versa). Of course there are other ways of earning. In fact, you'll be somewhat hard pressed to earn ANYTHING without going for something other than arkanian. The only patterns worth making will be barrels, hilts, and MAYBE regular mods(non-lettered). The whole point to my entire post was about how they trivialized end game crafting. Again: you can only craft Arkanian, and you can only farm the mats to make it once you're a good way into Arkanian or better via Scum and Villainy aka Darvannis HM (unless you're skilled and in Dread Guard). Even then, the mods/enh/armorings are so readily available via FPs or SM OPs, that there is no point to even crafting! (Hilts and barrels might be the exception). Hence the paradox I replied about a few lines later: I agree with Mallorik that it's not so bad that they took away the BEST tier from crafting. It's that even the second highest tier, which is craftable, has been ruined. The fact is, they've drastically changed the system and have killed the market. The GTN on our server is a ghost town. People don't even buy the lowbie stuff, as I'm told by fellow crafters, because it doesn't even work in PvP matches due to bolster changes. To be honest, if you get a sense of accomplishment from gearing via flashpoints and operations, you need to not dip into the end game crafting, even if it is available. It's not really the fault of the crafters that you didn't feel you accomplished anything when you did TFB. I know plenty of players who would not get stuff crafted when they hit 50. I'm sure they're gearing the same way for 55. PS All the people arguing about how augments are/are not cheaper to craft, again this thread is about 30 grade item modifications. You are extremely off topic....but yes it is 4 thermal regulators per augment and there is only 1 thermal for each slicing crit, which is also ridiculous because they don't happen often....BUT this is completely off topic, based on the context of what I've written, and only slightly related through the fact that the forum post is titled "Crafting in 2.0" instead of "End game crafting in 2.0" or "How Bioware completely gave the middle finger to end game crafters" Talking about this and other glitches, such as Hollinium, is a moot point. Bioware is working on the problem, according to the DEV TRACKER. Please refrain from including these topics in your replies. Thank you! OFF TOPIC THOUGHT:

The change in crafting that I posted was about the limited supply of Mass Manipulation Generators, which only appear in SnV HM. As 28 mods are only slightly better than Dread Guard, it is not really a integral step in the gearing process. Grade 30 items, even the A and B versions, are, however, a significant improvement from the 27 tier. These require 4 Exotic Equalizers and 1 Mass Manipulation Generators. SnV is completable with a coordinated and knowledgeable group in DG, but the effort is a strain without Arkanian. Mass Manipulation Generators can only be used to create Arkanian ie Grade 30 items. There is a paradox inherent in such a system: to be able to farm these Generators, you need to the gear you are trying to make to be able to do it easily. In other words, you can't craft the gear for yourself til you basically have no need for the gear. Even if you can craft the gear, you will only be able to sell it to the rich, because of how readily available most of the gear is in HM 55 FPs and SM Ops. To sum up my point: they have created a system of crafting where it is no longer useful to directly gear up - it can only be used to earn currency once you've already surpassed the need to craft. I suppose you could argue that you can use these mats to gear your alts and guildies who need them, but even with a run on SnV HM, you can only hope to craft a maximum of 3 items per week, and there are 8-16 other people in that raid with you.

Exactly. The problem I really have is that crafting has gone from a system that could potentially help gear my alts and guild to a system for players with tons of resources to make even more. It will be purely a system for making piles of credits by the players who have grinded out the most gear fastest. I can already see how much can be made by getting the most in-demand patterns: Reflex and skill barrels, Might and resolve hilts, Deft Agile Aptitude and Artful mod 30 (not A's). Even though I know I'll probably be crafting and benefitting greatly from this system, I feel like the old system definitely allowed for non-linear ways of obtaining gear. Also, I still don't understand why the Mass Manipulation Generators are available only in the hardest content. It indicates a fundamental shift in the developer's intentions for who can craft and how they want it done. Basically, it will be limited to PvE progression guilds, and given the rarity of these mats, the prices will also always stay high. The devs seem to be trying to make crafting a purely credit making venture. Even then, I don't see anyone but the richest or stupidest players buying these mods, as any credit-starved, clever player could just run FP's or SM OPs until they get enough pieces to run HM TFB/SnV and skip the tier. The rich making for the other rich so that they can get richer. It's an even more flawed system than before, imo.

I was thinking about crafting and the way it has changed. True, there are bugs, such as Hollinium and Perfect Carbonic Crystals, that make absolutely no sense, as no patterns even use those. It feels like a rip-off that RE-ing grade 30 gear no longer provides purple or blue exotic mats. This is a small list of the complaints that I've seen and felt. As I was writing out how it was unfair that Mass Manipulation Generators only appeared in HM SnV and NiM TFB (which only provide like 3) and that the crafting required too many grade 10 Exotic Equalizers, I realized that Bioware developers have attempted to solve multiple issues with crafting. First, hardcore raiders now have their elite level gear that is only available to those who have completed the hardest content. You may no longer craft top tier, which make those with Underworld the "truly elite." This is catering to the most hardcore crowd, and I'm sure that as I get into this tier, I'll be happy as well. Second, crafting has become hard. Not everyone can do it, since you have to be in mostly Black Market/Arkanian to more easily complete HM TFB and SnV. The crafters that you see will be mostly players who are in the hardcore raiding guilds and have put in the time to get geared and learn these patterns. People wanted crafting to be limited, and now it definitely is. Third, copy crafting is no longer viable. From what I hear, you can still do it, but why would you? With enough time, you can go and grind FPs for most of the armorings, mods, and enhancements. Even then, until you gear out, you won't be able to run HM OPs to get the materials to make the gear to make the money. Here are the problems with this model though. Pvpers and casual players want to make money too. This system totally alienates some 70-90% of the game's population. On top of that because crafting takes a major time commitment and a lot of resources to complete, it will be very expensive when these crafters do eventually make things. Because they are expensive but readily available via flashpoints, players won't purchase them until the price drops, which kills the incentive for crafting in the first place. As someone said in another post, crafting is like a mini-game and a lot of players get enjoyment out of doing it. Why would players spend so much time and in game currency only to come up short in profits? There are some players who will grind it out, but for many, they have killed off a part of the game that they really enjoyed. Even I have found it difficult to rationalize learning patterns. The old model, while not perfect in a lot of ways, allowed people to make a lot of money, but it also geared the community. Content was still hard if people didn't understand mechanics. We complained about the problems, but they were definitely minor compared to overall benefit of being able to gear myself, my guild, and my friends. To be honest, I don't like the changes. This game that I've spent over a year and a half on (beta etc), feels alien and strange. The changes have basically made an entirely new end game, if not an entirely new game. I suppose with time, we'll be able to tell if the changes were good or bad. The question is whether or not I'll be here to enjoy them. It's only several days into the pre-order, and I hear from a lot of guildies that they are leaving either when an upcoming mmo releases or their subscriptions run out. Bioware should have learned from other mmo's - make gradual changes because your fanbase only really wants more of the same....only different. I grudgingly admit that even with the flaws, the game has probably improved. After all, I complained about all of the things they attempted to fix. Although very unhappy now, I think we should stick with it and see how the game turns out in a few weeks. After all, a lot of the content is fun and gear isn't everything. Right?

Colderan and Sophia make the Warstalker Relic of Boundless Ages

These are all empire updates not on your list off the top of my head: Hilts and Barrels Reflex Barrel 27 - Thebustychick Skill Barrel 27 - Thebustychick Resolve Hilt 27 - Sophia, Rekcah Commando Barrel 27 - Sophia Amorings Guardian Armoring 27 - Aznsensation, Originality Force Wielder Armoring 27 - Aznsensation, Originality Commando Armoring 27 - Originality Skill Armoring 27 - Originality Resolve Armoring 27 - Aznsensation, Originality Reflex Armoring 27 - Aznsensation Might Armoring 27 - Originality Mods Artful Mod 27 - Originality Reinforced Mod 27 - Originality Deflecting Mod 27 - Sophia Agile Mod 27a - Aznsensation Keen Mod 27 - Aznsensation Keen Mod 27a - Aznsensation Mettle Mod 27 - Aznsensation Nimble Mod 27 - Aznsensation Artful Mod 27a - Aznsensation Elusive Mod 27 - Aznsensation Potent Mod 27 - Aznsensation Robust Mod 27 - Aznsensation Enhancements Bastion Enhancement 27 - Sirtanksalot Savant Enhancement 27 - Sirtanksalot Assault Enhancement 27 - Sirtanksalot Battle Enhancement 27 - Euronotus Vigilant Enhancement 27 - Originality Implants and Ears Hazmat Bulwark Mk-2 Implant - Deevaun Hazmat Duelist's MK-2 Implant - Destruktion (Aznsensation) Hazmat Bulwark's MK-1 Module (ear) - Originality Hazmat Striker's MK-2 Motivator - Sbh, Originality

Additions not on the list (all empire) Thebustychick Reflex Barrel 27 Skill Barrel 27 Sirtanksalot Bastion Enhancement 27 Savant Enhancent 27 (regular savant, not quick) Aznsensation Elusive Mod 27 Mettle Mod 27 Potent Mod 27 Agile Mod 27a Destruktion Hazmat Duelist's MK-2 Implant Other empire players: Origine Vigilant Enahancement 27 Originality Commando Arm 27 Force Weilder Arm 27 Guardian Arm 27 Artful Mod 27 Sophìa Resolve Hilt 27 Spänk Commando Barrel 27 Deevaun Hazmat Bulwark Mk-2 Implant Sbh Hazmat Striker's Mk-2 Implant

I got here from the post about RE'ing player made crafts. I don't know if you read my first ridiculously long reply(#55), but one of the reasons that not being able to copy schematics is good is the absurd price tag. Look at it like this: high prices make gearing out via crafting very prohibitive. People won't have 75-90% of their gear crafted. But again, they need to work on the way that gear is itemized, because Dread Guard is pretty awful. Anyway - everything that you put here is excellent and well thought out. I like the idea of a nightmare tier. I hope someone at Bioware hears you.

What many fail to realize is everything that I said in my last post, but here are a few new things I'll add to help you understand how crafting works in every MMO. First, without ever stepping into end game content, there is a way to make money. Mats have always been a favorite. Here is the funny part: YOU DON'T EVEN NEED THE TOP LEVEL. WoW, Everquest, Aion, SW:TOR, DAoC, etc all have vast markets in gathering lowbie mats and selling them. After all, there are always new crafters getting into the crafting game, old crafters who are too lazy/rich or unable to farm, and players who want things crafted (paying a nominal fee for a "put-together"). Second, you do not need to do end game content to be competitive in the market - it's all about time and effort. For example in SW:TOR, you can buy a basic level schematics for every single profession. With these, there are 3 levels, which can be attained with a little luck and farming. What is the major cost? It's your time. You spend the time pumping out greens to re to the CORRECT blue to re to the CORRECT purple (or blue, purple, purple). Another example is WoW, where you have to farm the same mob(s) 50-400 times to gain some of the rare schematics. On a side but related note, isn't end game content just another set of grinding requirements for getting these schematics? Now, I don't know if the current RE system is the BEST or not, but to put it in laymen's terms: it is how it is. Buying a crafted mod/enhancement/armoring to reverse engineer circumvents the traditional format of gaining that schematic, because this was NOT intended (as the developer pointed out at the beginning of this thread). I would say the main reason that they are not considering it an exploit is due to the sheer number of violated EULAs and their inability to quickly patch this problem before it became widespread...but that is another discussion. I don't know where you "heard" this, but if true, they dropped the ball. In 1.2, you could farm schematics by doing a variety of activities, many of which were not "end game content" per se. Flashpoints (daily group finder) and daily quests (black hole weekly) were another way to get black hole gear and learn schematics. Unfortunately for those who don't PVE, armorings, hilts and barrels were off limits, but there were still quite a few patterns to learn. In 1.4, they threw out the book and went back to the rakata format, and like rakata gear, it's poorly itemized. For BiS, you'd be farming well into the next major expansion. If they wanted to make it so that all schematics were available to everyone, they failed. And by the looks of how they set up everything, I highly doubt they intended all of crafting to be available to everyone if you look closely (scroll back to post #2 on this thread) The funny thing is, the changes are once again so small to everything but barrels/hilts, that even in full rakata, you could clear this content. This whole tier of gear is nothing BUT complete catering to elitists who want more and better gear. Another funny thing is, the crafters that are directly affected by this bug are mostly the 1% of SWTOR players. That is to say, it's millionaires stealing from other millionaires. Most of the players who have the capital to copy are players who earned those credits by bleeding the market with other crafts. Also, your statement is a prime example of how ignorant players are. You don't deserve equipment just because you reached level 50. Top tier gear isn't for everybody. Part of the draw to end game content in ANY mmo is the EXCLUSIVITY of gear to end game content. I don't know of any game that just gives you the best stuff for showing up. To sum up, crafting was already available to everyone. The difference is that now the SCHEMATICS are available to "everyone". To be honest, I'm not happy with the current way, but as with life, you have to adapt. Even if they somehow fix this bug, players who can't do end game content to legitimately gain patterns still have a plethora of ways of earning credits

One of the biggest flaws this tier is the itemization of the Dread Guard tier. The only way to reach BiS in a reasonable amount of time is to have literally 80-90% of your gear crafted. If you disagree, take a second look at the gear and tell me it isn't true. At least with stock columi/rakata you were putting out passable dps, heals, and threat. This is why our guild has two dedicated groups to learning the schematics. Those groups are also why we have so many (see Korrig's Signature). But along that line, we are sacrificing every piece of gear from every clear to have a chance at learning. Our blood, sweat, and tears (both of happiness and despair) are the currency of purchase that we use to gain these. I feel like the people who have worked hard should be rewarded for the time and effort they have put in. We use these patterns to gear up, make the guild richer (for current and future repairs), and make our players richer. Like gearing up, in game money is also an incentive to keep playing when content is stale. If someone can just pour money into learning patterns without ever stepping foot in an operation and possibly making their toon/guild BiS overnight, the whole experience experience is cheapened. Those who have worked for it are robbed of the revenue they deserve, which brings me back to my first point: CRAFTING SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY TO GET 80% OF YOUR GEAR BIS. I saw someone say that they had to pay a premium to learn the patterns and that is the reward those players deserve before they undercut/ruined that crafter's market. But it's not true. They had every right to keep earning that amount, because this is a capitalistic system. Greed works both ways. A player on my server was price gouging the Resolve Hilt 26 for weeks before anyone else learned it. The people who felt like they wanted the gear that bad scrambled for it. But it must not have been that many people because within a few days his crafting price dropped from 500k to 400k. Then a few days later it dropped again. Then, someone else learned it and their competition drove the price down to about 1.8mil or 200k crafting. Consumer money will always determine the end price of a product. So let's talk a little about free crafters. A lot of these guys just take advantage of "legit" crafters by having products crafted cheap, learning the schematic, and flooding the market. Let me ask you: where are those "legit" crafters' 20mil? To be honest, every RE is a gamble. You do not have the RIGHT to learn. You are throwing dice on the table. Some players are paid in full for their wager; some lose it all. I feel like the currency should always be time and effort. The players who are copying are taking a shortcut and are actually being rewarded. It's predatory and, to be honest, ethically wrong. Though you may not like it, prices also control WHO gets gear. Many players complain about highly geared players joining their operations or guilds that don't know how to play their class or what to do in an operation. Those restrictive prices, in a sense, sift out bad players. And it's not only because they can't afford it; it's because they're not going to value getting that expensive stuff if they can't even get into the new content or top tier guilds. I understand that good players who are unlucky feel like they should have access to top gear, but you have to understand that there are two sides to that coin. If you can get all the gear cheaply crafted or bought, the inexperienced and the ignorant also get that gear. It's a disease that our society as a whole has been propagating. You are honestly not entitled to anything you didn't earn, and I don't feel like using credits to learn a schematic is earning the right to use it. To sum up, cheap crafts obtained through reverse engineering player made crafts not only hurts the original crafter/guild, but the top level raiders on each server as well. I don't hold it against any player that wants to do it now that BW has officially made a statement acknowledging and accepting it (for now), but I don't think it should exist in the future. On a side and partially unrelated note, I do like the idea of mod/hilt/enhancement/armoring tokens. It would let players gear up in an even more customized way. It would also eliminate or at least limit the need for crafting:

Hazmat Bulwark's MK-1 Implant Also, Originality knows the Weighted 27. Not the 27b.

Aznsensation - Might Arm 27 Potent Mod 27 Deft Mod 27 Artful Mod 27 Agile Mod 27 Agile Mod 27a Aptitude Mod 27 Keen Mod 27b (thelastdon copied this piece of junk) Destruktion (alt) - Hazmat Pummeler's MK-3 Package Sirtanksalot (alt) - Adept Enh 27 Initiative Enh 27 Bastion Enh 27 Other Players: Originality - Weighted Mod 27 Spänk/Sophìa(alt 132 and 141) - Commando Arm 27 Quick Savant Enh 27 Elusive Mod 27b Sbh Hazmat Trapper's MK-4 Package Hazmat Bulwark's MK-1 Package Papaburgandy/Captaincoke - Acute Enh 27 Everyone above is imperial. Tbonez - Might Hilt 27 B-zero - Force Wielder Arm 27 Edit: And these three have Reflex Arm 27 now: Juicysniper Martok and Corva